Chyna wins, Chyna wins, Chyna wins! (UGH!)

[Guest jimmy no nose]

Is Chyna drawing fans? I can't imagine that she would, but that would be the only way to explain her ever winning against anyone.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

I could care less. Chyna fucking sucks. end of story.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

What are these "best matches in years" that NJPW is producing, exactly? Like you said, Sammy is now old, Tanaka is worthless right now, and Liger is still good but not a machine like he used to be. Then there's the heavies, with Tenzan, Nagata, and Nishimura being the top workers, and everyone else is just kind of there. Is this the "sea of good talent", that I'm supposed to be impressed with? And forgive me if I don't cream at the thought of another faux-shooter feud. As for Chono's masterfull booking, I wonder what exactly the explanation is supposed to be behind giving himself another G1 Climax win that he doesn't need while missing the boat on elevating Tenzan for the uptenth time.

 

Forgive me if I don't think "most interesting men's promotion in Japan" is a high compliment. Look at their competition, for cripes sake. It's like compairing three types of shit and trying to decide which one smells best.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

Well...who does AJPW have?

 

I rest my case...

[Guest RickyChosyu]

And? Are you trying to make a point, or something?

[Guest The Son of Sting]

Has anyone heard what Chyna's in-ring work is like? Has she shown any improvement?

[Guest BionicRedneck]

What are these "best matches in years" that NJPW is producing, exactly?

Masahiro Chono & Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs. Manabu Nakanishi & Osamu Nishimura (6/23/02) Is MOTY, IMO.

 

Also:

 

*Hiroyoshi Tenzan/Masahiro Chono vs. Manabu Nakanishi/Yuji Nagata

 

*Minoru Tanaka/Jushin Thunder Liger vs. Tsuyoshi Kikuchi/Yoshinobu Kanemaru

 

*Black Tiger/Eddie Guerrero/Jado/Gedo/Koji Kanemoto vs. Masayuki Naruse/Masahito Kakihara/El Samurai/Minoru Tanaka/Jushin Thunder Liger

 

were all real good too and I keep hearing good things about Nagata Vs Takayama.

 

Like you said, Sammy is now old, Tanaka is worthless right now, and Liger is still good but not a machine like he used to be

 

Liger might not be as good as he was, but he is still awesome, and one of the best in the world.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Regarding RickyChosyu's last post...

 

"What are these "best matches in years" that NJPW is producing, exactly?"

 

Chono/Tenzan vs. Nishimura/Nakanishi - both of the draws, Nagata vs. Sasaki, Nakanishi vs. Takayama, Nagata vs. Takayama. Also see most of the juniors stuff recently. Just about everything has been solid / good, even excellent, in the last few tours.

 

"Like you said, Sammy is now old, Tanaka is worthless right now, and Liger is still good but not a machine like he used to be."

 

And Kanemoto, AKIRA, Kakihara, Naruse, Black Tiger 3 and Tiger Mask IV have no skills at all I suppose?

 

"Then there's the heavies, with Tenzan, Nagata, and Nishimura being the top workers, and everyone else is just kind of there.Is this the "sea of good talent", that I'm supposed to be impressed with?"

 

Chono, Nakanishi, Sasaki, all the young guys in SWING-LOWS; Suzuki, Blue Wolf and Tanahashi, the great rookies which have so much potential. I think they are more than just 'there'.

 

"And forgive me if I don't cream at the thought of another faux-shooter feud.As for Chono's masterfull booking, I wonder what exactly the explanation is supposed to be behind giving himself another G1 Climax win that he doesn't need while missing the boat on elevating Tenzan for the uptenth time."

 

You may notice that the 'faux-shooter' matches on the current tour are not focussed on the wrestling, they are focussed on furthering the storyline, as they should be. The wrestling is being taken care of by the wrestlers in wrestling matches, while the shooters are there to exist in a feud WHICH IS SELLING TICKETS. This is Chono's masterful booking; get the tickets sold and get people in the seats, show them the shooter feud they came to see, but also impress them with great wrestling which they will come back for next time NJPW tours. In recent matches between Nishimura and Tenzan, for example, the sell-out crowd have been shouting for more time to be given after the limit expired. This is the same sort of match that was garnering no heat whatsoever earlier this year without Chono as head booker. The G1 Climax win? Chono DID need the elevation of that to put him firmly into the top six guys in the company, and to make him a player in this shooter feud thing. I agree that things could have been done differently, and Tenzan probly could have been put over here, but I don't fault Chono for doing what was obviously the right thing for business. In the eyes of the fans, the leader of Team 2000 going over an outsider in the final of the G1 Climax made the forthcoming joining of Team 2000 & NJPW as well as their feud against foreign invaders logical. If Tenzan had gone over, this wouldn't have had the same impact, I am sure.

 

If you can honestly say that you have been giving NJPW a chance in recent months, keeping track on the storylines and watching as much of it as you can like I have, then I will accept your opinions. But until you can say that, well I'm sorry, but I feel I'm well within my rights to claim that you are very wrong about NJPW.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I haven't seen much recent NJ (honestly due to lack of much interest, plus money) but these matches being MOTYC seems like quite a stretch to me, all things considered.

 

My belief that Chono lost the ability to work MOTYC, oh, six years ago, makes me doubt the greatness of his current work. The idea that a one-hour draw including him and Manobu Nakanishi would be MOTY is just ridiculous. Tenzan is good, but not good enough to pull MOTY out of two limited workers while carrying old man Chono for the ride, let alone, pulling it off for an hour. Sorry, I'm not buying into that.

 

See, here, again, Kikuchi hasn't been good in years, and years, Tanaka really doesn't do much of anything these days, and Kanemura and Liger do their thing, but little else (though Liger has shown he can still reach levles of great these days). This one seems better on paper than the one hour draw, but amazing match isn't what pops into my head when I see it. Maybe I'm wrong. I've heard good things about Takayama/Nagata, too, but the juniors haven't impressed me as much as they have others, for whatever reason. They just seem borring and stagnant to me right now.

 

For example, in regards to Platipus Fool's list of great workers I seem to have short-changed, I've never been a terribly-big fan of Kanemoto, Kakihara doesn't interest me much at all, Naruse seems God-awful, and the rest just kind of do their stuff, though I haven't seen any of Silver King's heel work, to be fair. I like AKIRA and Tiger Mask as much as the next guy, but their work seems to be limited in that they have trouble finding a role for themselves besides "supporting dude who does stuff." Either way, it doesn't seem like either has been put in any possition to have great matches.

 

As for the masterfull booking, it just seems silly to me to base yet another feud around the shooter stuff. If the attraction is the shooters, and the wrestlers are being burried as a result, who's benafiting? It seems Chono has been pretty wise in keeping the right guys protected, but what of elevating Tenzan? Why couldn't Chono just relinquish the title of Team 2000 leader before the G1 started? Then Tenzan could have beaten him to fully claim the role, and gone over Takayama to point out the new direction he and Team 2000 were taking in going against the shooters. At least Misawa is starting to realize that his role in the company should be de-prioritized these days. New stars have to be made sometime.

[Guest red_file]

The idea that a one-hour draw including him and Manobu Nakanishi would be MOTY is just ridiculous. Tenzan is good, but not good enough to pull MOTY out of two limited workers while carrying old man Chono for the ride, let alone, pulling it off for an hour. Sorry, I'm not buying into that.

 

See, I'm not exactly seeing how this type of comment jives with the "WATCH THE MATCH!!!!!" litany that you and others foist in this forum. Speculation is one thing; outright juding a product without having viewed it is quite another.

 

Whatever.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I really do think you should watch the match, Ricky, give 'em a chance.

 

The final comment I shall make is that the wrestlers are not being buried by the shooter storyline, the two things are existing equally on the cards. For example, on a recent show, the shooter storyline headlined, but it was a five minute tag match to further the plot. The match just under that was a 31 minute match between Nishimura and Tenzan, which was hugely heated. The point is that the focus is on the wrestlers AND the shooter plot, and Chono is setting up a situation where both will draw for NJPW.

 

And yes, new stars do need to be created, but Chono has plenty of time, and he is slowly setting up a situation where six wrestlers - Nagata, Tenzan, Nishimura, Nakanishi, Sasaki and himself - are considered close to equally strong. Chono may have won the G1, but it's not like he's moved himself into an 'ace' position, where he is the only guy who means anything to the fans, like Misawa did in late 90's AJPW. Give Chono some time, he's only been booking for a few months, he is elevating people, just slowly.

[Guest wolverine]

See, I'm not exactly seeing how this type of comment jives with the "WATCH THE MATCH!!!!!" litany that you and others foist in this forum. Speculation is one thing; outright juding a product without having viewed it is quite another.

 

Let's see here. We have people touting the 'WATCH THE MATCHES' line in regards to watching Tsuruta, Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi - all at or near their primes. These names speak for themselves. Do you honestly think the same vigor should be demonstrated in regards to Chono, Manabu Nakanishi and Nishimura in 2002?

 

I totally see where Ricky is coming from, since I've experienced a similar disinterest in watching the men's groups in Japan these days. The stuff just isn't up to snuff to what I'm used to.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Let's see here. We have people touting the 'WATCH THE MATCHES' line in regards to watching Tsuruta, Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi - all at or near their primes. These names speak for themselves. Do you honestly think the same vigor should be demonstrated in regards to Chono, Manabu Nakanishi and Nishimura in 2002?

Yes. Everyone knows that Jumbo etc. were great, so the "Watch the match" thing should apply even more to people like Nakanishi. Ricky saying a MOTY involving these men is ridiculous is...well...ridiculous. The match is awesome, watch it, and you will probably agree.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

"The stuff just isn't up to snuff to what I'm used to."

 

What is? What do you consider can possibly be 'up to snuff' with the stuff you are used to in future?

 

The fact is, nothing is gonna compare to Jumbo / Misawa / Kawada / Kobashi in their primes. We're not saying that this new NJPW stuff does. All we are saying is that it's the best we've had from wrestling for the last couple of years or so, and that is good enough for us thanks.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I bring up the "just watch the friggin' match" arguement when I've already explained why the match was good (or bad) and whoever it is that I happen to be arguing with refuses to listen. Is that the case here? I haven't heard one thing in this match's defense besides "just watch it." Am I missing something?

 

I explained the reasons why I hadn't taken the time to track down the match (money and lack of interest being the two biggest), but also, I had never heard it hyped as anything special until Platypus and Redneck brought it up. Not once have I seen that match pimped as being great, and since it's a one hour draw featuring 2002 Chono, Nishimura, and Nakanish, I had more reason to believe that it would be God-awful than anything. If people here can convince me that it's really THAT great, I might track it down, but asking me to just watch a match that I a) haven't seen before, and b) don't particularly care to see is vain and irrational. Give me reason to believe that the match will be good, and I'll probably track it down sometime.

 

A one hour draw featuring three guys hardly known for their endurance and one senior citizen is not something that screams "MATCH OF THE YEAR" to me. If that's being illogical, call me a lunatic, because I'm not buying it without proper justification. If you can explain to me how they worked around the limitations of everyone in the match, kept it interesting for a full hour, and managed to avoid making the broadway finish blatantly obvious (a problem nearly all one-hour draws have), I'll give it a chance some time, but I haven't seen anything like that yet from you guys. Give me a reason that Chono, a man who hasn't had a good match in ages, is now capable of MOTY. I don't think an arguement based on logic is that much to ask, so use one, for crying out loud.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Additionally, in regards to Platypusfool's arguement on Chono's booking, it does appear that he's done a great job of making the top six guys look even, but the shooter booking just makes no sense to me. You've got Usada, a guy who is a proven anti-draw, and has been burried quite a bit since lossing the strap, and now he's getting pushed again? What does that say to fans? Then there's Chyna, who is supposed to be an attraction, but to the point that she's facing Chono in the Tokyo Dome? What has she done to build interest in that? Pinning lots of worthless juniors and getting knocked out by Joey Butafuco in a shoot? Pushing her as a "shooter" against Chono as a "wrestler" is practically a parody in itself.

 

But hey, if he uses it to get the Nagata's and Tenzans of the company into decent draws, I guess it's hard to argue with his booking.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Actually, Nishimura is known for his endurance as he has had many a time limit draw this year.

 

Here are a couple of reviews of the match I have tracked down. They probably explain better than I could.

 

#1 From StrongStyleSpirit

 

#2 From IchibanPuroresu

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I guess I'll put it this way. From my knowledge, Nishimura isn't exactly known for being interesting in long matches, even if he's capable of them. Still, I see your point and I'll read the reviews.

 

EDIT: Ah, crap, now I remember why I stopped reading Stuart's reviews. Stupid site design that's too many frames wide for my brower. AGH!!!

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Same here.

 

That pisses me off big time. Good reviews though.

[Guest wolverine]

All we are saying is that it's the best we've had from wrestling for the last couple of years or so, and that is good enough for us thanks.

 

Look, you guys are bringing up Brandon Thurston's site now, who seems to be a huge NJ mark, and even he recognizes that there was no men's match last year as good as Ito-Momoe 9/16. So in the future, make sure you say "men's wrestling" if you want me to listen to what you have to say.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

All is well and good in the world - one final thing to say; Chyna is not being pushed against Chono for the Tokyo Dome. There has been indications towards that, but Chono is basically refusing the match, and, indeed, the current card gives no indication as to this match taking place. In fact, here is the card which is, more or less, confirmed, although hasn't been officially yet:

 

NJPW "THE SPIRAL", 10/14/02 (WPW)

Tokyo Dome

 

1. Toryumon Offer Match

 

2. Shinya Makabe Return Match: Shinya Makabe vs. TBA

 

3. NWF Heavyweight Title Tournament - Semi Final: Tsuyoshi Kosaka vs. Tadao Yasuda

 

4. IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Title: Winner of Kanemoto/Tiger Mask © vs. Heat

 

5. New Japan vs. Fujita Army/Makai Club Singles Match Series: Masahiro Chono, Yuji Nagata, Kensuke Sasaki, Hiroyoshi Tenzan, Manabu Nakanishi & Osamu Nishimura vs. TBA

 

The only chance Chyna has is if she's part of the 'Makai Club', which she is not. The Fujita Army/Makai Club is Fujita, Yasuda, Ryushi Yanagisawa, Makai Masks #1 and #2 and Takayama. If the Chyna / Chono confrontation does occur, it will be short and booked to further storyline, it wont be that bad!

[Guest Dangerous A]

In regards to the Chono/Tenzan vs Nishimura/Nakanishi match. I just watched it last night and I'll say this. It's damn good for this year. "This year" being the key words. In a year where wrestling in Japan as well as North America are struggling, this match is good. Would I call it Match of the year so far? No. I think a more accurate description of this match would be it's a definite top ten match of the year, but the pacing of the match doesn't scream MOTY. Don't get me wrong, it's still good, a solid **** effort, but there were better this year from Japan and North America.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I'm interested to know what you think is the best match of this year so far, if that isn't, from the Japs side of things.

[Guest Dangerous A]

I'd have to go with Misawa/Kobashi vs Akiyama/Nagata from Budokan in February. Nagata vs Takayama from the 5/2 Dome show is a close second, IMO.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I keep forgetting that Kobashi return match was this year I'm gonna get my hands on both of those matches you mention before the year is out.

[Guest Dangerous A]

Also, I haven't seen Tenryu vs Kojima from July. I heard it was good, between **** 1/2-****3/4. I've seen their match from February and while it was good, there have been a lot better matches this year.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I've seen Misawa/Kobashi vs. Akiyama/Nagata and I have to say, I wasn't too entrhalled. Misawa was working better than usual, and the whole Kobashi/Akiyama storyline playing back to their old feud was nice, but it just never achieved the levle that made me say "this is really great stuff" and I wouldn't give it anymore than ***3/4. I've heard a lot of hype for Kojima/Tenryu and Takayam/Nagata, though. I'm skeptical as to both, but hey, it's a pretty crappy year, especially for the men's promotions, so what can you do.

[Guest Dangerous A]

Actually Ricky, I thought Misawa kind of dogged it that night at Budokan. I can definitely feel where you are coming from as far as the enthralling feeling. I marked out big time the first viewing, but the impact was lessened the second and third viewing. But being a huge Kobashi mark I give it a good ****1/4-****1/2 mark. That's just me though. I also have seen no joshi action from this year.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

Have these been posted before? Liger is Lauer's bitch.

 

 

 

[Guest RickyChosyu]

She's never looked better

 

DA: I dunno, it's hard for me to gauge, but from what I've seen from Misawa, he pretty much dogs it all the time these days. Not dogging it in the "refuse to do any work" sense, but refusing to deviate from the usual Misawa match. So, relatively speaking, I thought he played his supporting role in the tag match well, but in general the work just didn't drive the point home enough for what they did. I liked Nagata's involvment, but he seemed like he was just doing his stuff at times, too. He was still quite good, but I expected a little bit more out of him for who was working against. When the Nagata Lock II gets zero reaction, you know there's a problem, and it hurt the drama to an extent. I was very happy to see Kobashi again, and his segments with Akiyama especially had me marking out at times, but I don't know if I would be willing to call it Match of the Year. I too, have seen little, and virtually no joshi from this year, so I'm kind of in the dark.