Vader's Best Match

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Vader is arguably the best big man in the history of the sport. He had a bunch of fine matches throughout his career. Which one was the best though?

 

My personal pick would be the 1/96 v Inoki or his 7/92 or 2/93 matches vs. Sting. I can't pick the 8/94 match with Takada as his best for the mere fact that I have seen better out of Takada and the style in general. After watching the 12/84 and 8/88 Takada v Yamazaki matches, plus the Tamura v Han classics, the Vader/Takada series doesn't do the same things for me.

 

What Vader does with Inoki is something that I have not seen Inoki be able to do with anyone else nor have I seen anyone carry such a lesser opponent to such a high quality match.

 

The Sting matches are just high end US Pro Style for the early 1990's. Very comparable to 1990's AJPW in terms of how it is worked and the style of the matches.

 

Thoughts, comments, opinions.......

 

Tim

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Haven't seen the UWFi work, but vs. Inoki and vs. Sting are indeed the peak of his work, as far as I can tell. Just perfect portrayals of the monster heel mold he had created for himself being taken to the next levle and carrying much lesser workers to high end matches. Plus the Inoki match is great for watching everytime one gets frustrated with his annoying booking, cause Vader just cleans his clock there. Also notible is 2/90 vs. Hansen, not because it's particularly good, but because it's so stiff that, at one point, Vader's eye pops out of it's socket. He had to cram it back in there on the spot, which may be the grosest thing I've seen in a non-garbage match. It's the worste when you're not expecting it, trust me.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

"Also notible is 2/90 vs. Hansen, not because it's particularly good, but because it's so stiff that, at one point, Vader's eye pops out of it's socket. He had to cram it back in there on the spot, which may be the grosest thing I've seen in a non-garbage match. It's the worste when you're not expecting it, trust me."

 

That is the sickest I've ever heard in my life, without a shadow of a doubt. I'm usually completely stoic with shit like that, but I feel really ill after reading that. Fucking hell.

[Guest Pegasus Kid]

I'm inclined to go with his match against Sting from Superbrawl III. It's like getting a two for one deal. You get the gimmicked strap match, which is done to perfection while also integrating a "relatively" straight wrestling match at various portions. I really enjoy the Inoki match but his match vs Sting wasn't so much a carry job as it was two guys that knew how to work at their best with each other.

[Guest Jubuki]

The 8/94 Vader/Takada is probably the best pro match to happen in UWFi. It would have been a perfect cap to the 1/96 Dome show, in terms of style winding up in the right place at the right time. As for his best match overall...it's up there. Sure, Takada's done a whole lot better, and so have the RINGS guys, but Vader was never a shootstyle worker the way the others were, so getting a match like that out of him is a feat in and of itself. I'd say it would take the lead for me, with the 1/96 Inoki trailing and the 2/93 Sting match somewhere in the background. I highly doubt any of them would be one of the 50 best matches I've seen, though.

[Guest XdojimeX]

"I can't pick the 8/94 match with Takada as his best for the mere fact that I have seen better out of Takada and the style in general. After watching the 12/84 and 8/88 Takada v Yamazaki matches, plus the Tamura v Han classics, the Vader/Takada series doesn't do the same things for me."

 

I'd have to go with 8/94 myself. The fact that it probably would have been more at home in a New Japan ring doesn't bother me. Didn't seem to bother the folks under the tent that night either (except grumpy ol' Lou ). In the context of a pro-style match it's the best work of either man's career IMO.

[Guest cynicalprofit]

Im still partial to the Cactus win on WCW Saturday night, and at the time it was a HUGE upset and Vaders promo after ward was nothing short of his best.

 

But in a non partial way, vs Sting in the Strap match cause they didnt let the gimmak hinder them at all, which happens to everyone else, and it was a super good match, and the Inoki one was just as good if not a little bit better.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Anyone but me hate the finish to the Inoki/Vader match, or is that a stupid question?

[Guest Tim Cooke]

It is the perfect finish. Inoki had to go over. So he pulled out a credible move that had beaten Vader before in Japan (12/93 v Takada) and used it. The fans got it, it didn't hurt Vader's monster credibility.

 

Tim

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

So he pulled out a credible move that had beaten Vader before in Japan (12/93 v Takada) and used it.

 

Okay, so at least it was building off of a previous finish, I didn't see the match you referenced, but that helps a lot. My main gripe with that match was the finish.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

What about his match with Misawa? Where he hits THE German Suplex of Doom? Misawa took it RIGHT ON THE MELON. That was disgustingly sick and great at the same time. I still can't get over GAB 92, though. Sting just did THE selling of his life for Vader, and damn glad that he did.

[Guest wolverine]

I'm not that familiar with shootstyle, but of the matches I've seen, the 8/94 Takada-Vader stands out as my favorite. I'm sure that'll change when I get my hands on Tamura-Kohsaka though. As well as the Tamura-Han '97 matches.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

The German suplexes Vader gives Misawa are sick. Misawa just doesn't care so he jumps into them and comes down so hard from so high on his head.

 

From seeing a few Vader/Misawa matches and a Vader/Kobashi match from '99-'00 which I have all at ***-**** I wish they had met around '93 where they were arguably at their peaks. Instead of ***-**** matches they could of been having ****-***** matches.

[Guest wolverine]

Misawa was well before his peak in '93. He was excellent, but he didn't reach greatness until 1995 or so. By 1996, I'd say he was the best in the world. Kobashi on the other hand was an anomaly in '93.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

OK. Misawa and Kawada had the GREATEST MATCH EVER in 94. That's his peak, bar none.

[Guest Jubuki]

It depends on how you look at it, really.

 

If you go by average match quality, Misawa might look better in 93 than he does in 94-96. He was teaming with Kobashi, Akiyama, & Kikuchi in big 6-mans far more often, and both Kobashi & Kikuchi were better in 93 than they were later. If you look at how good those matches are compared to how the 6-mans were in 95 & 96, it would suggest Misawa was better earlier. On the other hand, he was hitting peak match quality from mid-94 to 1/97, but that was only with the other Big 3 - the ancillary 6-mans and tags dropped off noticeably.

 

I don't know if I'd go far enough as to say he was the best in the world in '96 - Kawada *should* have been the best, but he was never put into the prime position to make it happen. The few great matches they were in, though, were very often against each other, and Kawada tended to surpass him in those instances (5/96, 7/96, 12/96). Granted, had Liger been healthy the whole year, or if Ohtani had stepped up and pulled Kanemoto or Eddy or another of the UWFi guys to a great match in addition to what he did against Liger/Sammy/Dragon/Benoit, I'd have an entirely different opinion as to who was the best.

[Guest wolverine]

"OK. Misawa and Kawada had the GREATEST MATCH EVER in 94. That's his peak, bar none."

 

His peak singles match, but not his peak as a performer - in particular, storytelling ability and playing your role to perfection. It's pretty obvious if you've seen his work from 1995-1996.

 

Dammit, I wish the 4/96 Misawa-Kawada was available in complete form, because it looked so incredible.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Otani's 1996 was pretty incredible...it was almost comparable to Kobashi's 1993 in a few ways.

 

They both played the up and comer in those years and had tremendous matches with a variety of opponents.

 

It's too bad that they didn't grow up and had to use that crying bullshit way beyond its usefullness.

 

As for a 1993 match up between Misawa, Kobashi, or Kawada v Vader, they would have all been FANTASTIC! Sting could do it, why couldn't 3 of the best in the world done it?

 

Is the 4/96 Mis v Kaw CC match only show in JIP form with 2 mins?

 

Tim

[Guest wolverine]

"Is the 4/96 Mis v Kaw CC match only show in JIP form with 2 mins?"

 

Highlights were shown on the Carny '96 comm tape. I remember jdw saying that people swore that was the best match of the Carny and from the looks of things, I'd agree. It looked far better in highlight form than the complete Misawa-Kobashi match - which was also great, but not as great as I thought after rewatching it. In fact, I don't really see how it's that much better than the Misawa-Taue TC switch.

[Guest kebab]

So he pulled out a credible move that had beaten Vader before in Japan (12/93 v Takada) and used it.

 

Okay, so at least it was building off of a previous finish, I didn't see the match you referenced, but that helps a lot. My main gripe with that match was the finish.

Not only did it play of a previous match, but also the future. Later that night Takada beat Muto for the IWGP title with the same move, the cross armbreaker.

 

This was around the Gracie's popularity peak in Japan, and the move was over like hell.

[Guest wolverine]

"This was around the Gracie's popularity peak in Japan, and the move was over like hell."

 

Yeah, no kidding. Just look at Kawada-Albright. Wild heat.