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Buffy The Vampire Slayer: Season 7

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Guest Cavi
She didn't understand any of it because she was just turned human, and demon's don't have emotions, correct?

She does have emotions, it's just that, as Max said, she doesn't understand. Most of the time that has been used for laughs, but in this case, they went the other route and it worked extremely well. Incredible scene.

 

One thing I noticed about The Body was that there wasn't much music involved with it, did they do this on purpose? Or am I wrong?

You are right, there is no score in the episode at all. Simply dialogue and ambient noises. It was done on purpose. Joss believed that it would help in bringing out what such an experience is like. He has also made mention of the fact that music itself is a comfort. He wanted to make it as uncomfortable and as disturbing as it would be in real life (I guess he would know, as he says he went through something similar). Yet another reason as to why he is such a genius.

 

Actually, I remember hearing that John Ritter got an Emmy for his role in Buffy as the robot guy. I maybe wrong, but that is what I herad.

He did not win an Emmy for his role, nor did he get a nomination, I believe. The only people to win Emmys for the show are Chris Beck (composer, won it for Becoming), and the makeup and costume people. How Chris Beck did not win it again for Once More With Feeling this past awards is beyond me though.

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Guest The Hamburglar

A note on the Gift and indeed the last three episodes of series 5. They suck. Oh, dear God they suck. On their own, they'd probably be passable, but their is so much aggravating trite crap in the Gift that it makes me want to weep. The entire central premise of the Gift is that Buffy refuses to kill Dawn, WHO IS NOT EVEN REAL, to save the entire universe. That's shite, and Whedon cops out at the end with one of the most mind-buggeringly pathetic deus ex machinas ever, as it undermines the whole freaking season. "She's made out of me? Oh great!" So the dumb monks, instead of hiding the Key, decided to make a replica? A replica that could bleed? Poo, poo, poo. And the killing of Ben is an important moment for Giles and pulled off well, but is completely invalidated by the whole "can't kill Dawn" thing. Aaaaargh, I hate to be flaming a show I love so much, its just that in retrospect far too much of season 5 was really, really dumb. But, hey, I'm one of the few people that really liked Buffy vs Dracula! Come on, it was awesome!! Anyone? Huh?

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Guest Mole
She does have emotions, it's just that, as Max said, she doesn't understand. Most of the time that has been used for laughs, but in this case, they went the other route and it worked extremely well. Incredible scene.

 

Yeah, I meant that she was a demon, so she didn't understand human emotions. But yeah, I get it, thanks. That is why she is so fuckin stupid mostly through season 6, she just doesn't get anything.

 

You are right, there is no score in the episode at all. Simply dialogue and ambient noises. It was done on purpose. Joss believed that it would help in bringing out what such an experience is like. He has also made mention of the fact that music itself is a comfort. He wanted to make it as uncomfortable and as disturbing as it would be in real life (I guess he would know, as he says he went through something similar). Yet another reason as to why he is such a genius.

 

Damn, Joss is genius. That makes perfect sense, to have it be very realistic.

 

Thanks for answering all these questions for me. My ex has watched the show from the beginning, but she is so fuckin stupid that she can't remember half of the stuff I ask her. She is a hardcore fan, and couldn't even remember how many times Buffy was killed.

 

So wait, another question. Since Buffy died at the end of season 5, shouldn't there be another slayer? Isn't it when one slayer dies, another one is born?

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Guest Edwin MacPhisto
So wait, another question. Since Buffy died at the end of season 5, shouldn't there be another slayer? Isn't it when one slayer dies, another one is born?

 

Nope. When she died at the end of the first season, Kendra was called. Buffy's kind of a slayer out of the loop now; she's already died, and a slayer's already been called in her place.

 

he "real" slayer at present is still Faith, who was called when Kendra died and who's locked up in jail somewhere. Kind of inconvenient, eh? I don't think we'll see another slayer unless Faith dies or if there's some sort of loophole no one's yet aware of.

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Guest Ripper

"A note on the Gift and indeed the last three episodes of series 5. They suck. Oh, dear God they suck. On their own, they'd probably be passable, but their is so much aggravating trite crap in the Gift that it makes me want to weep. The entire central premise of the Gift is that Buffy refuses to kill Dawn, WHO IS NOT EVEN REAL, to save the entire universe. That's shite, and Whedon cops out at the end with one of the most mind-buggeringly pathetic deus ex machinas ever, as it undermines the whole freaking season. "She's made out of me? Oh great!" So the dumb monks, instead of hiding the Key, decided to make a replica? A replica that could bleed? Poo, poo, poo. And the killing of Ben is an important moment for Giles and pulled off well, but is completely invalidated by the whole "can't kill Dawn" thing. Aaaaargh, I hate to be flaming a show I love so much, its just that in retrospect far too much of season 5 was really, really dumb. But, hey, I'm one of the few people that really liked Buffy vs Dracula! Come on, it was awesome!! Anyone? Huh? "

 

Its not shite that she wouldn't want to kill Dawn. She had vivid memories of Dawn being born and being raised as her sister. Yeah, she found out she wasn't real, but it doesn't change the fact that she was her sister emotionally and mentally. Then she lost her mother. Dawn was the only family that Buffy had left in the world(according to her emotions and memories.) It would have been incredible unrealistic and dumb if she had been all, "Yeah, kill my little sister, its for the world, ya know." Knowing that the monks created her didn't invalidate all that she felt for her. The Giles killing Ben thing didn't invalidate a single thing. Giles was on the "sacrifice Dawn" team if you do remember. He was for saving the world no matter what. So he killed Ben because he had the chance and wanted to protect them.

 

The Key was not a replica. They were trying to hide the key and use it for good when Glory started tearing them to shreds and killing them all. So they gave it to the slayer(protector of the world) to keep safe. If it hadn't been in the form of something that she cared and would sacrifice everything for, she wouldn't have been nearly as gung-ho to protect it. if the Blood of the Key was the energy, and they made her to have Summers DNA and Blood, then, yeah, the Buffys Blood would have worked. I'm right there with you in the upgrade to Troll-God for Olaf, but hey, that doesn't take away from the awsomeness of the season, the Glory Saga, and the greatest run of shows in the shows history(from the Body-the Gift, no other season had as many good shows in a row as this).

 

And since everyone no sold my post about the "You're Beneath me" line in fool for love 13 freakin pages back, I would like to say again, that I thought Spike would end up being the Big Bad...working for the First.

 

I mean, you had Halfrek and Buffy on the show at the begaining of the season...both of the women that had told Spike/William that he was beneath them. Both times it royaly pissed him off. The first time he became a vampire, and the other he broke out the Shot gun ready to kill a slayer. I thought it was to much of a coincidence. Then they killed Halfrek...then up came the Master 2.0(I guaren-damn- tee you guys that Eric Metcalf will be the voice of the risen vamp...its the freakin master) so there went my idea.

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Guest RavishingRickRudo

What was it that Giles said before he killed Ben - that was some fabulous stuff.

 

If you found out that all your memories were a lie - that your family wasn't "real family" - would you care any less for them? Of course not. The Gift rocked because everything built up to it, interconnected and paid off. From the buffy-bot, to Spikes relationship with Buffy and Dawn, to the hammer, to the 'death is my gift', to bens struggle with glory... just everything... beautifully booked.

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Guest Youth N Asia
What was it that Giles said before he killed Ben - that was some fabulous stuff.

GILES: "Can you move?"

 

 

BEN: "Need... a minute… She could have killed me."

 

 

GILES: "No she couldn't. Never. And sooner or later, Glory will re-emerge and make Buffy pay for that mercy, and the world with her. Buffy even knows that, and still she wouldn't take a human life. Because she's a hero, you see. She's not like us."

 

 

BEN: "Us?"

 

*Giles coldly clamps his hand over Ben's mouth and nose. Ben struggles feebly for a while. Then stops. Giles' expression never changes."

 

------------------------------------

 

Now THAT'S great tv

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What was it that Giles said before he killed Ben - that was some fabulous stuff.

Wow, I'm gone for a few days and you guys fill up a good 3-4 pages of posts.

 

Giles said something to the effect of this:

 

Ben: She could have killed me...

 

Giles: No, she couldn't have. And Glory will make her pay for that mercy. You see, she's a hero. She's not like you or I.

 

Ben: You or I? ::dies::

 

 

Notes on last week's show:

 

Great stuff ... I don't think the 'real Vampire' is the Master - I just think it's a vampire without any human in it (remember how the Mayor turned into a 'pure' demon in Graduation Day? Same thing) ... Without reading too much into it, I think the principal is good and moved Jonathan partially to bury him and partially to prevent his blood from opening up the seal (like what was done to Spike at the end) ... it took me until I re-watched 'Amends' on Thanksgiving morning (pre-marathon) for me to realize the ties to this season (big mark-out moment, even for it being 7am) - it's interesting that Buffy never even tried to fight the First in that episode, she just ran off to save Angel ... I'm still not sold on the Watchers being killed, that's basically the same cliffhanger Joss gave us the week before with Giles and I refuse to believe he's dead at this point

 

Notes on the marathon:

 

I voted for 'Amends', 'Passions', and 'The Gift' and only one made it? Blasphemy! 'Halloween' and 'Buffy vs. Dracula' didn't deserve to be up there. I had never seen 'Hush' but that has to be one of the best eps ever! Surprised so many eps from Season 4 were included, since that's generally regarded as the least entertaining year. Loved the Spike flashback episode.

 

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

 

I hear Faith is coming back to do Angel in February, then appearing on Buffy to close off the season ... interesting ...

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What was it that Giles said before he killed Ben - that was some fabulous stuff.

GILES: "Can you move?"

 

 

BEN: "Need... a minute… She could have killed me."

 

 

GILES: "No she couldn't. Never. And sooner or later, Glory will re-emerge and make Buffy pay for that mercy, and the world with her. Buffy even knows that, and still she wouldn't take a human life. Because she's a hero, you see. She's not like us."

 

 

BEN: "Us?"

 

*Giles coldly clamps his hand over Ben's mouth and nose. Ben struggles feebly for a while. Then stops. Giles' expression never changes."

 

------------------------------------

 

Now THAT'S great tv

Yeah that's exactly how it went.

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Guest Mole

Was Ben the other half of Glory? Now, I am a little confused on this. Was Glory the main bad guy for Season 5? And if she was, what was the deal with her? Why did she have so much beef with Buffy?

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Guest RavishingRickRudo

Glory was a god from another dimention. She was indeed the villain in season 5 and IMO one of the best. In order for her to live in this dimention she had to hook up with a human host - Ben. Ben diminished her powers greatly (though she still kicked Buffy's ass) and gave her morals - which is why she struggled to kill dawn in the last few eps. But then she made a deal with Ben - saying if she died he would die as well, so Ben turned evil and sacrificed dawn. She wanted to open a portal to her hell dimention so she could have her full powers and FSU on earth (fuck shit up). She shrugged Buffy off for the most part in the earlier eps. but when she found out that Buffy knew where (and what) the key was, she became more interested.

 

I could be wrong on a few points, if so, feel free to correct me.

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Guest Kagato Otaku
Its not shite that she wouldn't want to kill Dawn. She had vivid memories of Dawn being born and being raised as her sister. Yeah, she found out she wasn't real, but it doesn't change the fact that she was her sister emotionally and mentally.

 

Dawn is a fake.

 

You know it, I know it, Dawn knows it, Buffy knows it, and their circle of friends know it. Any feelings input into Buffy's memory are a fraud.

 

To retroactively swerve Buffy's character by having her warp from someone who knows that sometimes sacrifices must be made for the greater good (sending the ensouled Angel to hell in "Becoming, Part II") to the pod-Buffy allowing a friggin' universal apocalypse to go down to save this illegitimate thing molded to be her "sister". She had as much feelings for Angel at that point, perhaps more-so.

 

Giles - "Buffy, if the ritual starts, every living creature in this and every other dimension imaginable will suffer unbearable torment and Death. Including Dawn."

Buffy - "Then the last thing she'll see is me protecting her."

Giles - "You'll fail. You'll die. We all will."

Buffy - "I'm sorry. I love you all, but I'm sorry."

 

That's not noble. That's bullshit. As is threatening to murder her friends if they do the right thing and off Dawn if there's no other choice. You know, the ones that existed on this earthly plane prior to last year.

 

And the ending sucks for reasons already listed.

 

Sorry Rip. I dislike "The Gift" on many levels, and feel its vasty overrated. Though I still always get a kick out of "This will be our day of GLORY!!"

 

AND UBER-VAMP IS NOT THE MASTER, DAMMIT!!!

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Guest Ripper
Its not shite that she wouldn't want to kill Dawn. She had vivid memories of Dawn being born and being raised as her sister. Yeah, she found out she wasn't real, but it doesn't change the fact that she was her sister emotionally and mentally.

 

Dawn is a fake.

 

You know it, I know it, Dawn knows it, Buffy knows it, and their circle of friends know it. Any feelings input into Buffy's memory are a fraud.

 

To retroactively swerve Buffy's character by having her warp from someone who knows that sometimes sacrifices must be made for the greater good (sending the ensouled Angel to hell in "Becoming, Part II") to the pod-Buffy allowing a friggin' universal apocalypse to go down to save this illegitimate thing molded to be her "sister". She had as much feelings for Angel at that point, perhaps more-so.

 

Giles - "Buffy, if the ritual starts, every living creature in this and every other dimension imaginable will suffer unbearable torment and Death. Including Dawn."

Buffy - "Then the last thing she'll see is me protecting her."

Giles - "You'll fail. You'll die. We all will."

Buffy - "I'm sorry. I love you all, but I'm sorry."

 

That's not noble. That's bullshit. As is threatening to murder her friends if they do the right thing and off Dawn if there's no other choice. You know, the ones that existed on this earthly plane prior to last year.

 

And the ending sucks for reasons already listed.

 

Sorry Rip. I dislike "The Gift" on many levels, and feel its vasty overrated. Though I still always get a kick out of "This will be our day of GLORY!!"

 

AND UBER-VAMP IS NOT THE MASTER, DAMMIT!!!

Angel= Killed friends, tortured watcher, and tried to destroy the world

 

Dawn= just a little girl that had done NOTHING wrong.

 

Its hard to draw parallels there.

 

PLUS, you have to be kidding if you think that Buffy would care for Angel anymore than Dawn. She remembers and loves Dawn as a sister...as blood. That goes alot deeper than the guy you fell in love with. Proof positive... in the episode "HIM" Buffy truly believed (through spell, but still believed) that she was in love with that kid...willing to kill principal Wood over him. But she was willing to give him up before Dawn did harm to herself. Blood is goes thicker than anything...thicker than something with Angel...who by the way, she was pretty much over less than a year later when the Riley fuckathon was on.

 

Joss draws parallels to life...in the show that Dawn found out about her being the key, it was being a parallel drawn to adoption. The fact that she didn't REALLY belong to the family didn't change the love that they all had for her and she had for them. Months earlier, none of them knew anything about the Key.... It would really be a leap in the way people actually react to situations to believe that Buffy would just stop caring in a few months.

 

AND in that show (The Gift) and the ones preceding it, Buffy talked of her disgust of the world. How she didn't want to be a part of it anymore if she lost Dawn. Just watch the entire scene with her and Giles in the workout area of the Magic Shop where she talks about if Dawn dies she will quit the whole slayer thing. Was she being selfish...well, yeah...but was it a believeable selfishness. You're damn right it was. Biffy's change of attitiude wasn't a warp. It was a gradual transistion from one to another. in Season Five Buffy lost the person she cared for( I refuse to say she loved Riley) and her mother and was met with losing her sister and having to go on in this world or fighting to keep her alive. In a honest, realistic view of human emotion, how she reacted is what ANY person would do.

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Guest Mole
Glory was a god from another dimention.  She was indeed the villain in season 5 and IMO one of the best.  In order for her to live in this dimention she had to hook up with a human host - Ben.  Ben diminished her powers greatly (though she still kicked Buffy's ass) and gave her morals - which is why she struggled to kill dawn in the last few eps.  But then she made a deal with Ben - saying if she died he would die as well, so Ben turned evil and sacrificed dawn.  She wanted to open a portal to her hell dimention so she could have her full powers and FSU on earth (fuck shit up).  She shrugged Buffy off for the most part in the earlier eps. but when she found out that Buffy knew where (and what) the key was, she became more interested.

 

I could be wrong on a few points, if so, feel free to correct me.

 

 

Even better than Angel during the second half of season 2? Season 1 and 2 are the only seasons I've seen in full. The Master didn't seem all that bad. However, Angel was one mean MoFo. He knew how to get into Buffy's head, and he did it so well.

 

Thanks, by the way.

 

Dawn is a fake.

 

Not only is she fake in reality, but as a person too. She is just plain old fake, plus a big ol' bitch. Why is it Joss made her character that way? I really can't stand her.

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Guest Kagato Otaku
Angel= Killed friends, tortured watcher, and tried to destroy the world

 

"Angelus" did, yes. And she instantly forgave him and brought him back to health the next season, lying and hiding him from watcher and friends. She could have cared less about any of those values then. And Buffy's stance on world-destroying when it suits her needs came into question in "The Gift".

 

Angel...who by the way, she was pretty much over less than a year later when the Riley fuckathon was on.

 

Riley? RILEY?!

 

The guy Buffy cheated on the minute Angel became human again?

 

Was she being selfish...well, yeah...but was it a believeable selfishness. You're damn right it was.

 

If we're going to universal Melty-land and the stupid clod who let it happen did so for base sentiment I'd be righteously pissed off. We're talking billions of lives here. BILLIONS. All dead because a few monks put a false memory in the Slayer's head to keep her from doing her job. And again, her willingness to kill Giles and the others (who she knew, and had known YEARS before Dawn came along) and not listen to reason if worst came to worst was disgusting.

 

Besides, a quick and easy death would be preferable to what some Hellspawn might have in store for lil' Dawny.

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Guest Kagato Otaku

And lest we forget, Dawn was ready to sacrifice herself when the portal opened. Until she was saved by Buffy's quick thinking and the show's bad writing.

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Guest Kagato Otaku
She wanted to open a portal to her hell dimention so she could have her full powers and FSU on earth (fuck shit up).

 

Nope.

 

Glory didn't care if Earth was ravaged or prospered. She just wanted to go "home". Whether or not dimensions were destroyed in the process wasn't her problem.

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Guest Cavi
She remembers and loves Dawn as a sister...as blood.  That goes alot deeper than the guy you fell in love with. But she was willing to give him up before Dawn did harm to herself.  Blood is goes thicker than anything...thicker than something with Angel...

Yeah, I agree. As she says in the episode ("The Gift"), Dawn is more than just her sister - "She's me." She feels closer to Dawn than anyone in her entire life. Even though she says "I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life" (in regards to Angel) in "Selfless" from earlier this season, Dawn is still that one person who holds more meaning to her than anyone, ever.

 

With the possibilty of Dawn dying (and the end of the world), she had to make a decision. Yes, she loves her friends greatly, and obviously the entire world is at stake, but like she states in the aforementioned scene with Giles "I don't know how to live in this world if these are the choices." She is not going to accept the fact that to save the world, Dawn would have to die. Of course, she finally realizes what her destiny is, and that was that.

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Guest Youth N Asia
Quick note-she wasn't with Riley in that Angel-->human ep.

As I remember it, that was pretty early in Buffy season 4/Angel season 1...she really didn't get with farmboy till about mid/late season

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Guest The Hamburglar

I never really warmed to Glory as a villain. Due to the whole being much stronger than Buffy and invulnerable thing, I did not feel any tension in any of her scenes. That was the great thing about Angelus and Spike, Buffy had a better than 50% chance at kicking their asses so they were forced to choose more subtle and interesting ways to take her down. That and Glory's character had about as much depth as a puddle in the Gobi desert. I just didn't get any evil vibe off her.

 

 

However, I would like to give a shout-out to the absolute best thing in Series 5: Glory's minions. Whatever we may all think of certain episodes, I'm sure all Buffy fans can agree that the minions ruled it in every way shape or form. All praise to the minions.

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Guest brokentusk16

Is it just me, or ever since season 3 ended has Buffy had a real attitude problem? Like when she chased Faith to LA, all she did was bitch when Angel tried to help Faith. For the past few years Buffy has seemed to have a superiority complex. Am I the only one who thinks this?

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Guest Edwin MacPhisto
However, I would like to give a shout-out to the absolute best thing in Series 5: Glory's minions. Whatever we may all think of certain episodes, I'm sure all Buffy fans can agree that the minions ruled it in every way shape or form. All praise to the minions.

"We will bring you the limp and beaten body of Bob Barker, your greatness!"

 

Yeah, I rather liked them too.

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Guest RavishingRickRudo

That's the thing I like about Glory - she didn't give a fuck. The Master, Angel, The Mayor, Adam - they all took Buffy seriously (at least half-seriously) but Glory was different. Also, to where Adam thought he was a god, Glory WAS a god - but her (anti) tragic-flaw was she was connected to Ben - sorta like how buffy was connected to Dawn,.

 

"Death is my Gift" is something that the whole season of buffy was building up to, as was "blood is thicker than water" - to say that the finale was 'badly written' is just wrong.

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Guest The Hamburglar
That's the thing I like about Glory - she didn't give a fuck. The Master, Angel, The Mayor, Adam - they all took Buffy seriously (at least half-seriously) but Glory was different. Also, to where Adam thought he was a god, Glory WAS a god - but her (anti) tragic-flaw was she was connected to Ben - sorta like how buffy was connected to Dawn,.

 

"Death is my Gift" is something that the whole season of buffy was building up to, as was "blood is thicker than water" - to say that the finale was 'badly written' is just wrong.

Well, I know mine and many others complaint with that finale was that they pulled a get-out solution right out of their asses. Come on, Buffy just suddenly magically figures out that her blood will close the portal, even though nothing previously has indicated this? Its a cop-out, a deus ex machina of the very worst kind. What the logical build was was Buffy being forced to kill Dawn and dealing with the consequences. Had that happened, or if Dawn had jumped herself, I would still have had my issues with the whole season but it wouldn't have been bad writing as such. The end to the Gift is bad writing, pure and simple, whether you liked it or not. I'm not even someone who usually bitches about plot-holes, but the ending of the Gift was something beyond a simple plot hole to me.

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Guest Edwin MacPhisto
Come on, Buffy just suddenly magically figures out that her blood will close the portal, even though nothing previously has indicated this?

 

Sure it has. The episode "Blood Ties" - the entire finale after the gang saves Dawn from Glory's interrogation consists of Buffy assuring Dawn that she's real Summers blood. When Dawn bleeds, she bleeds real blood; it's a bit of a stretch, but even "Restless" in season four and most especially the chat with the Primitive in "Intervention" sets up the whole "Death is your gift" thing. At the brink of the apocalypse, Buffy figures it out. It's not a deus ex machina because the answer comes from within the characters and has been set up quite laboriously; if Giles were to suddenly pull a magic ninja throwing star out of his pocket, throw it into the portal, and then say "Oh, I thought that might save the world and it did - yay!", then I'd be agreeing with you.

 

One of the main tenets of season 5 was that Dawn might have been only 4 months old physically, but the memory of her was felt to be real by everyone; Buffy saw her as a part of her, and it's a fine metaphorical conclusion to a season that was based on a lot of subtext and thematic consistency. I can understand a dislike of it, but I think season 5 is anything but bad writing if you follow it all the way through.

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Guest DawnBTVS

We all know that Buffy's "always" had this relationship with Dawn but it seemed like the other characters treated Dawn like they knew her all their lives too. For some reason Willow's line of "Still leading with your knight?" pops into my head as proof that the other characters also had memories of Dawn.

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They did all have memories, even Giles. When he tries to tell Buffy that the only way out is to kill Dawn once the ceremony begins, he makes sure to mention the fact that he does truely love Dawn - but he has to say things and do things others can't (like kill Ben).

 

Season 5 has to be seen all the way through to be fully appreciated, much like 2. They both slowly picked away at Buffy's safety net until there was nothing left (Angel turning bad, killing Ms. Calender, Kendra being killed, being expelled, killing Angel to Buffy's mom getting sick, Riley leaving, the experiences with the first slayer, Buffy's mom dying, being pitted against a god). I guess you could argue that Buffy did a cop-out in both finales, but the second was much more noble and they were both fantastic episodes IMO.

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Guest Cavi
However, I would like to give a shout-out to the absolute best thing in Series 5:  Glory's minions.  Whatever we may all think of certain episodes, I'm sure all Buffy fans can agree that the minions ruled it in every way shape or form.  All praise to the minions.

Oh yes, her minions did indeed rule. Other than the classic Bob Barker line Edwin pointed out, I have always liked this little bit in "Intervention" - Glory is talking about how the Slayer and the Key are somehow connected, and she wants her minions to find out what's up. Murk replies "We can do that, O...thou" like he was simply out of adjectives to describe Glory. He and Jinx look at each other with this "I didn't know what to say" expression. I always get a kick out of that.

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