Buffy The Vampire Slayer: Season 7

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

*bump* we really need to fix the problem of posts not showing up right away.

[Guest Lil Naitch]

"To Shanshu in LA" The season 1 ender on Angel, I beleive. In it was a prophecy about a vampire with a sould who would become human once he helped avert the apocalypse, and everybody just assumed it was Angel- which it was back then, because Spike didn't have a soul.

[Guest Youth N Asia]

Another 4-5 months before Angel starts...just gotta wait and see

[Guest Youth N Asia]

*bump* we really need to fix the problem of posts not showing up right away.

Agreed...I didn't see this post or the one after till I posted again

[Guest raptor]

I guess I missed out on all the initial reaction. I thought it was an amazing finale, and everything was pretty near perfect.

 

In closing: there should be no re-writing of the events at the end. It was one of the most emotional pieces of any art form I've ever seen. Undoing those events would be as retarded as bringing Norman Osborne back from the dead.

[Guest Sakura]

All in all, a finale that really closed the book, leaving almost no holes or things unresolved.

So what was the seal?

 

Why did The First want Spike?

 

Why was The First's old plan of killing the slayer line dropped?

 

What exactly was it's new plan? In End of Days it said it would be able to merge with everyone in the world. In this ep it told Buffy it would be made flesh. Which is it?

 

How did the Ubervamps come about and why were they all in the Hellmouth? Since when was the Hellmouth a cave full of Ubervamps anyway?

 

What happened to the assassins after Anya?

 

Where was Xander's storyarc this season!?

 

Where did Amy go to?

 

What was up with Joyce in Conversations With Dead People and the Joyce ghost that had talked to Buffy?

 

Why did Wood bury Jonathan?

 

What was the whole point of The First dealing with Andrew and Jonathan anyway?

 

What is Caleb's origin?

 

 

 

This is just off the top of my head...

[Guest Vyce]

Well, I'm torn about the finale. Part of me liked it, part of me is underwhelmed.

 

About Spike: I knew that is how it would end with him - but they've been foreshadowing it for the entire season, really. I'll miss him terribly, but then, that'll only be until Angel starts.

 

RRR: Yes, Spike IS the greatest character on the entire show. I've said that since at least Season 5. He had more depth than ANY of them, and if you look at his entire story, IMO it's honestly a more intriguing narrative than the entire "discovering who and what I am" theme that was Buffy's story. But maybe I just love tragic characters more. Either way, Marsters really did a masterful job with the character.

 

Andrew telling Xander about Anya's death(which was, like people said, brutal - those damn Bringer knives are sharp, eh?) was very touching.

 

That's part of the finale that really angered me.

 

The death itself wasn't really dwelled on. Hell, it happened in brief seconds on screen. And the impact of it was NOT felt by the characters. Hello! This is a character that just spent the last 4 years or so with you! She was the love of Xander's life! And yet a MINUTE after Xander learns of her death, what is everyone doing? Making jokes around the Sunnydale crater. AWFUL. I'm ashamed of this from Joss. Humor may have been a key part of the series, but after so much death and destruction, much of it incalcuably personal, try and show some fucking somberness.

[Guest Cavi]

Right on, Sak.

 

Those plotholes + SiTs = one of my least favorite seasons.

 

It's still Buffy, so of course it was still good, but just not up to their previous efforts, I thought.

 

Anya's past is another plot mess up. All along, we were led to believe she was so tactless because she was a demon and didn't understand human emotions. But evidenced by "Selfess", she was tactless even before becoming a demon. That is sort of weaksauce. That episode still ruled though.

 

Adding this is:

 

And I totally agree with what Vyce just said about Anya's death.

[Conspiracy_Victim 0]

"To Shanshu in LA" The season 1 ender on Angel, I beleive. In it was a prophecy about a vampire with a sould who would become human once he helped avert the apocalypse, and everybody just assumed it was Angel- which it was back then, because Spike didn't have a soul.

THANK YOU!! I knew there was something like that in Angel, but I couldn't remember what exactly it was. Was driving me nuts.

[Guest Edwin MacPhisto]

Loose ends, yes. A really haphazard treatment of Anya? Yep. Hell, Amanda's death almost got as much notice as hers.

 

I still really liked this season, though. Part of me was frustrated that they left loose ends like that--that there was weak, cheap writing like the whole "Is Giles dead or not" saga, that so much of the reasoning behind why the First chose to move now was left untold, and that Xander and Anya had very little to do this year, with Willow a close third behind them in nowhere land.

 

Yet a lot of me really loved this year. Maybe it was because it was the first Buffy year I watched entirely in sequence--I was hooked by last year's final arc and crammed everything before 7 in by the end of January. In terms of consistency I found myself really satisfied; there are only two, maybe three episodes (Potential, Showtime, and perhaps Lessons) that I don't care to revisit. A lot of this season has been very subtle--what they did get right, the writers got right well. I just watched "Chosen" again and after giving about half of the episodes this season the repeat treatment, I can say that it's one that definitely ages well in revisits. In terms of episode consistency, this ranks second only to Season 3 for me when it comes to being able to enjoy almost every episode. I loved Spike's evolution, I loved the focus on Buffy, and a focus on fun characters like Wood, Andrew, and Faith helped things out a lot. We didn't get a lot for some of our veteran members, but the freshness and mystery that our less-used characters exhibited made up for it in my eyes.

 

It's a tough call. I don't have the same massive love for season 2 that the rest of the world does, probably because I didn't experience it during the original run, and think that it has a lot of down spots. 3 and 5 are my favorites as of now, but despite the flaws, I'm going to call season 7 a comfortable third. There was just too much great writing here for me to shunt it any lower, even though some of the aforementioned flaws and oversights were gaping.

 

"First Date"

"Conversations With Dead People"

"Dirty Girls"

"Lies My Parents Told Me"

"Chosen"

"Storyteller"

 

The eps that really, truly stand out from this year. Any takers?

[Guest Youth N Asia]

Now I don't know any of this as 100% fact...just what I think's right

 

So what was the seal?

Apparently it's what keep the hellmouth closed

 

Why did The First want Spike?

Would be nice to get someone with his power on their side. Plus he has emotinal ties to Buffy

 

Why was The First's old plan of killing the slayer line dropped?

What was left of them fell under Buffy's protection...but they messed with that in the last ep by saying there were other girls out there. I think Buffy are her group became the main focus

 

What exactly was it's new plan? In End of Days it said it would be able to merge with everyone in the world. In this ep it told Buffy it would be made flesh. Which is it?

Wish I knew

 

How did the Ubervamps come about and why were they all in the Hellmouth? Since when was the Hellmouth a cave full of Ubervamps anyway?

it's the mouth of hell...the source of all evil. Endless badguys could've been there

 

What happened to the assassins after Anya?

D'Hoffryn called them off after she gave up the gig...I think

 

Where was Xander's storyarc this season!?

Sadly it wasn't there

 

Where did Amy go to?

Guess she just kinda faded away after the deal with Willow/Warren

 

What was up with Joyce in Conversations With Dead People and the Joyce ghost that had talked to Buffy?

The First messing with Dawn I thought

 

Why did Wood bury Jonathan?

Cause he knew bad shit was going down...and that would have been a hell of a thing for the night janitor to stumble across...would have brough up too many questions about the dead kid and the seal

 

What was the whole point of The First dealing with Andrew and Jonathan anyway?

Maybe just wanted someone on the inside. Andrew was living in the house afterall

 

What is Caleb's origin?

They half assed explaining that one...I don't even remember really.

[Guest Youth N Asia]

I'm also putting the Buffy list deal up tomorrow...if you don't know what I'm talking about then get back a few pages.

 

top 10 buffy characters (non villan)

top 10 buffy villans

top 5 buffy moments

favorite one shot character

top 5 least favorite episodes

top 3 writers

top 3 holy shit! moments

top 5 quotes/one liners

rank the seasons

 

DON'T REPLY TO ANY OF THIS HERE. I only posted that so you could get your own lists in order, I've started mine.

Edited May 21, 2003 by Youth N Asia

[Guest Sakura]

Apparently it's what keep the hellmouth closed

 

But where did it come from? It was never there before. Why does blood open it and tears close it? How did the Ubervamps get out without anyone's blood in End of Days? Whatever happened to that knife Andrew had that closed it up?

 

it's the mouth of hell...the source of all evil. Endless badguys could've been there

 

 

So...the Hellmouth just spawns Ubervamps? The Hellmouth never did that before. When The Master opened it like giant monsters came out.

 

 

D'Hoffryn called them off after she gave up the gig...I think

 

 

Her giving up the demon job is WHY he sent them after her.

 

 

Maybe just wanted someone on the inside. Andrew was living in the house afterall

 

 

Andrew was in AFTER the Jonathan debacle.

 

 

 

 

As for theo ther stuff, whicih you're just guessing about...I agree mostly. It probably was just The First messing with Dawn and it probably just wanted Spike as an ally...but confirmation would be nice. We shouldn't have to like GUESS on these plot points.

[Guest Youth N Asia]

Apparently it's what keep the hellmouth closed

 

But where did it come from? It was never there before. Why does blood open it and tears close it? How did the Ubervamps get out without anyone's blood in End of Days? Whatever happened to that knife Andrew had that closed it up?

For all we know it's been there all along. This season's just the first time it's been used. I think it's been there a long time

 

D'Hoffryn called them off after she gave up the gig...I think

 

 

Her giving up the demon job is WHY he sent them after her.

Not really. She couldn't officially give it up till a vengance demon died...which happened at the end of the ep.

 

Maybe just wanted someone on the inside. Andrew was living in the house afterall

 

Andrew was in AFTER the Jonathan debacle.

Oh, I see what you mean. I think the intent was to drain Jonathan (which Andrew admits he didn't do right) and open the seal. only Andrew messed that up and got caught in town by Willow...and while he was in The First tried to turn him

[Guest Sakura]

I think the seal is new.

 

He sent assassins after Selfless. They attacked her(but Spike saved her) in an ep after that. It was then dropped.

 

Why Jonathan? Why not some homeless guy?

[Guest Cavi]

Andrew was going to talk about the seal in "Never Leave Me", but Spike attacked him right before he could do so. I guess we could assume he finally did say what it was, but it needed to be explained in the actual show.

[Guest Youth N Asia]

I'm going to bed now...I'd stay here longer but conversation's died alittle.

 

I still say the seal is old, but they just don't find out about it till season 7

[Guest LaParkaMarka]

You'd think they would have found the seal in Season 3. In the episode "Zeppo", wasn't the Hellmouth basically opened? Right in the library, which is where the seal would have been now, right?

 

Anyways, I felt kinda "that's it?" at the end, but in retrospect it was a good ep. Too bad some of the loose threads and plot holes weren't fixed, but at least we have another season of Angel for that.

 

And I can't believe Rudo likes someone more than the Beast. That's just messed up.

[Guest Cavi]

You'd think they would have found the seal in Season 3. In the episode "Zeppo", wasn't the Hellmouth basically opened? Right in the library, which is where the seal would have been now, right?

Yeah, that baddie first showed up in "Prophecy Girl" so you would think they would have found the seal if it had been there.

[Guest Marshall]

Wouln't be cool if Fred was a slayer now? Has this point been made?

[Guest Cavi]

It has not been mentioned in this thread, though my sister brought it up with me earlier tonight. I hadn't thought of it before then. It is indeed something to keep in mind.

 

Back on the subject of Buffy, I just can't get the thought of Anya dying out of my head. I thought the way she went out was un-Jossy. A damn freakin' shame one of my favorite character's death was basically no sold. The last image we ever saw of her was her dead body, alone (well, with a dead Bringer), in rubble...not cool.

[Guest Sakura]

Yeah, I keep thinking about it too and it makes me more and more sad and angry. I don't understand why she died like that if she had to die. She just gets cut up and falls. There is nothing emotional or anything about that. It's just a shock and horrific.

[Guest Youth N Asia]

Now if Anya had been cut up right after pushing Andrew out of the way or something like that her death would have meant more.

 

And they never actually went looking for the seal before this. So I still say it's been there all along, it's just been in place that they didn't need to be in.

[Guest Ripper]

Well...they just found Joyce on the couch so shocking and horrific is how it goes.

 

The most touching moment of the show to me was when the big 4, Xander, Buffy, Willow and Giles sat around discussing what they would do tommorrow. BIG flashback to "The Harvest" and thats when it really hit me that it was all about to be over.

 

If you ever looked at Xander in times of peril, he always joked. He was telling jokes in Giles apartment after Jenny Died (the whole bit about the weapons), He was telling jokes at the hospital after Joyce died(something about homework) and tonight, to cover up pain he did what he always does, he joked around the subject and pretended it didn't happen.

 

I don't think it was as much no selling Anyas death as being in shock of the whole damn city gone. Their mothers grave...gone..their home...gone...everything. It probably hadn't even hit some of them that Anya wasn't there. Anya has been one of my favorite characters and that HURT seeing her go down. But I think some serious mourn time would be coming when they had a chance to sit down and count the losses and realize that she isn't there.

 

I also would like to add that the red head with the short hair...that girl kicked ass. I would watch her in a spinoff show anyday. I'm still pissed that Wood wasn't evil(I mean come on...they were screamin it.) and that last scene with Spike and Buffy was beautiful and I loved his "No, you don't" line. He died giggling like Spike should have.

 

This final show gave you everything...comedy(the tounge ring line was GOLD as was Spikes drawing of Angel on the punching bag), drama, action...and I loved every minute of it.

 

But now comes the realization that this is the first show that I LOVED to end. Yeah, I've been a fan of other shows...but never to the point that I cared to deeply discuss them and see others opinion. For the last few years, this show has been part of me, as corny as it sounds and it will hurt next year when I instictively don't make plans for Tuesday nights to discover that Buffy ain't there.

 

I would've loved a montage at the begining of the show like on "The Gift" to really cement the ending. I would've loved more Scoobie time...I would've loved Anyas last lines not being about Bunnys(although I guess it is fitting that they were)..I would've loved if Wood had died in the bus(okay, I'm sadistic but that would've been SO much cooler) But all in all, over the last 144 Buffy episodes I was never once bored...I never once felt that I had wasted a hour of my time...For the good eps and the bad, deep inside I loved them all...

[Guest Youth N Asia]

I'm still pissed that Wood wasn't evil(I mean come on...they were screamin it.)

I was more pissed that he wasn't eaten

[Guest oldschoolwrestling]

Question, I didn't get to see the finale but I think I taped it. Was it a 1 or 2 hour finale?

[Guest Youth N Asia]

Just an hour

[Guest Lil Naitch]

IMO, the finale would have kicked serious ass if it had been a two-hour movie (with a larger budget for the FX)

I have to say that I loved this ep. Both Spike and Angels jealousy over each other was gold. I wish Caleb would have been in it longer, but thems the breaks. And I agree that Anya's death was a total WTF moment- she's standing there fighting and all of a sudden she's damn near cut in half. As for Xander being flip at the end, I think deep down he was hurting, but the pain was eased knowing that she went down a hero. Plus, he always jokes to make thing easier.

I thing that, after the Scobbies had broken up in that hall and Buffy was walking down to the basement, they should have shown flashbacks from the last 6 years, to give it even more history.

As for why there were only Ubervamps in the Hellmouth- I think it was just one cavern in a much larger underworld structure.

 

I only had two problems- we never really got to see the new high school, and Dawn's "Scrappy Gang" was dropped after the first eppisode. What happend to Carlos and Kit?

 

And tht's all I got to say.

[Guest Edwin MacPhisto]

Stuff I recall to sorta answer the questions we've been discussing:

 

--The assassins after Anya just kinda stopped coming. Spike took care of the ones at the beginning of...I think of "First Date," because I think they were walking around talking about how everyone had dates for Valentine's Day and they didn't. After that there wasn't any mention of them; I'm not sure if they just let it slip or if that was supposed to be the end of them. Weak resolution.

 

--About why the First went for Jonathan and Andrew: watch "Storyteller" again. They were headed to Mexico (where the knife was), they were from Sunnydale, and I believe blood was supposed to be drawn with that knife to first open the Seal. Which is odd, because it was really Spike's blood that opened it the first time, so...better resolution, but a little inconsistent.

 

--I'm thinking the First wanted Spike because he was powerful, susceptible, and close to the gang. The First stopped using him after a certain point because I think it became clear he wasn't going anywhere bad. Hence the one little desperate "That bitch" at the end of "End of Days."

 

--The First wanting to kill all the Slayer line never really seemed to go away to me. It just stopped taking a proactive route of attacking the house and the SiTs directly after it couldn't get anywhere with Andrew and the gun in "First Date." As soon as "Get It Done" it was getting Chloe to hang herself, and even in "Dirty Girls" and the subsequent final arc, Caleb wanted to kill as many as he could. I'm not really clear what the final plan was--it was vague, and I would have liked a little more.

 

--All the ubervamps below the Hellmouth: not so sure. From the way the vision at the end of "Get It Done" was presented in terms of the Shadowmen and Buffy's premonition, I just inferred that the First had been raising the army ever since it decided to attack, which is at least as early as the season premiere (remember the Big Bad morph montage with Spike at the end). This was one of the quibbles that didn't bother me so much.

 

--Xander's story arc: I am a reliable carpenter who's always there when you need me! I guess it was supposed to be more about his being grown up, resolving his relationship with Anya, and him doing his best to hold on to his position of stoic right-hand man in the face of the biggest challenge ever, but nothing was really that fleshed out. A disappointment. He sure fixed a lot of windows, though.

 

--Amy disappeared after a cute one-shot. Not so concerned.

 

--The Joyce ghosts pissed me off. The one that talked to Buffy I simply assumed was The First. I still don't know how the "when the time comes, Buffy won't choose you" thing plays into Dawn, because big glowing angelic Joyce seems to imply "I'm not the First, I'm actually important." I really wanted some form of clearer resolution here, because this was one of the earliest bits of foreshadowing and it was never resolved.

 

--Wood burying Jonathan: I agree, just to get rid of the body. We learn in "First Date" that he's at least semi-aware of what's going on and is doing his part as a normal guy in the battle.

 

--Caleb's origin: I was satisfied with this. From "Dirty Girls," I culled that he was a preacher who'd had a penchant for killing girls even before the First found him. First, like with a Spike, saw a suspectible and respectably powerful individual, and gave him even more power. Works for me.

 

My biggest question remains what exactly the truth was with what the big floating Beljoxa's eye in "Showtime" said, that something was wrong with the Slayer. Giles and Anya assumed it was just because they'd brought her back from the dead, and that allowed the First to rise. We never really got a confirmation of this, and it disappoints me; it wasn't like the gang was already onto the secret of the Fray scythe, and the First had to race to end the line before Buffy could find and use it. Any thoughts on this? I'd say something like "two slayers break the balance," but we've had two since the Season 1 finale, technically.

 

Anyway, I don't think the loose ends are quite as loose as some others do...but I agree that a lot of them were executed poorly and left the overall arc with a bit of an "oh, all right" feeling rather than a "wooooow" feeling. The earlier seasons didn't have to worry about this as much; the overall arcs in Seasons 2 and 3 were powerful, but not that complex. Starting with season 5, the arcs have gotten more twisty, turny, and multilayered, perhaps to try to outdo the simple, strong stuff that came before it.

[Guest Youth N Asia]

I was afraid that Dawn's little click would turn into a focus of the show, glad it didn't happen.

 

You knew Xander was hurt, but that's just how he delt with his pain. Always has.

 

I would have also marked for Flashbacks. And it might have been too much work to do...but I would have liked to have seen the opening credits changed to where they show older shots of the cast to go along with the more recient ones.

 

Buffy list thread is up now.