Why does everyone think Heyman is a genius?

[Guest Trivia247]

amazing what would have happen if he went in the WWF as Stunning Steve Austin.. He wouldn't never have Evolved into Stone Cold.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

I wouldn't say that. Vince would have never brought in "Stunning" Steve Austin and WCW had fucked him over, even if he had never went to ECW, he probably still would have became Stone Cold since he was still bitter as hell.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

But he was able to 'focus his anger' in ECW. He cut one of the best promos i've personally ever heard in his 'superstar' promo.

 

Plus he mocked bischoff and hogan in ECW- how could vince NOT sign him?

[Guest cynicalprofit]

Heyman started with almost nothing and made it into something, if thats not genius, I dont know what is.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

But he was able to 'focus his anger' in ECW. He cut one of the best promos i've personally ever heard in his 'superstar' promo.

 

Plus he mocked bischoff and hogan in ECW- how could vince NOT sign him?

I wouldn't say he "focused" his anger in ECW. More like he got it off his chest.

 

And I think Vince would have signed him regardless.

[Guest CoreyLazarus416]

I'll never quite read an APO post the same after he called MIKEY WHIPWRECK (see avatar) a talentless hack...

 

I don't really have anything to add, honestly. Other than this:

The very first time I ever saw ECW was the Heat Wave 1998 PPV. I read the hype about ECW in the magazines (PWI, Inside Wrestling, etc; The Apter Mags), and heard older wrestling fans talking about ECW constantly. So my parents ordered the Heat Wave 1998 PPV for me. I watched the pre-game show with such attention that I can still remember nearly everything covered in it, and thinking "who the fuck is this hick?" the first time I saw a clip of Balls Mahoney without his t-shirt on, and only the top of the singlet acting as a wifebeater. The lead-up to Dreamer/Sandman/Spike vs. The Dudley Boyz made me want to see the match, and I didn't even know who the hell ANY of these guys were. I came in a WWF/WCW Mark wanting to see what all the fuss was about, and when the show went off the air, I left an ECW Mutant with a taste for wrestling that the other companies wouldn't dare touch for years, and a need for angles/feuds/storylines as beautiful as anything Dreamer was involved in.

 

If that doesn't say "genius" to me, I don't know what does.

[Guest Brian]

I think Vince would have signed him regardless also. Those promos did little for him when he got there.

[Guest papacita]

What I loved about Paul is that he knew how to get people over. While ECW was hurt by the WWF and WCW raiding its talent roster, it seemed like everytime they plucked someone, a new star popped up his place. Also, ECW never insulted your intelligence. They openly acknowledged the other feds, they acknowledged that Raven once competed as Scotty Flamingo, unlike the WWF, whose idea of not insulting the fans intelligence is throwing together a bunch of illogical crap and rationalizing it by saying "it's all entertainment".

 

And no one's mentioned the Sandman being "blinded" by Tommy Dreamer?

[Guest Kid Kablam]

Heyman was able to utilize most, if not all, of his roster to their individual strengths.

 

Just because someone is misused somewhere doesn't make the guy who knows how to use him a genius. I'll give credit to Heyman for being able to make some guys look good, but I just don't see how he'a genius in the grand scheme of things.

 

But a Booker's job IS to utilize each worker in their ideal role. It was his job and he was damn good at it. It's a lot harder to make decisions like that than most people think. Genius isn't magic, it's just knowing what move to make when.

[Guest cabbageboy]

Mikey Whipwreck is a talentless hack? Ever take a look at his tag stuff with Tajiri? Their match with the FBI is one of the top matches of 2000 in my book.

 

Heyman was a genius in some ways but not in others. He could take very limited talent and get those guys over as world beaters. I mean, in 1999 I BELIEVED that Taz was a pissed off psycho who could destroy the Rock or Hogan if he wanted to.

 

Ironically he wasn't as good at pushing one of the most talented guys he ever had...RVD.

[Guest Youth N Asia]

You can bite my ass with the Mikey "talentless hack" comment...

 

He had good matches with Sandman...now how many people can say they did that.

 

And even thought he's the smarks whipping boy his matches with Credible were better then anything WWE is doing today.

 

And the MIkey/Yoshi vs FBI matches were the best series of tag matches in a long damn time.

 

Pop in your Uncensored 99 and watch the 15 minute Whipwreck/Kidman CLASSIC

 

Ironically he wasn't as good at pushing one of the most talented guys he ever had...RVD.

How can you say that when Van Dam didn't job for 2 years...he didn't get the world title cause he didn't NEED it to be over.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Kidman/Mikey was hardly a classic. On the other hand, I wouldn't say he was a talentless hack.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Might as well reply...

 

Personally, I've never seen anything out of Mikey that even begins to resemble a good-to-great worker and I've watched him since 1996, so in IMO, he sucks. Can't deal with that opinion, then too bad.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

I don't really understand your point. You make this thread to ask a question. People answer your question and you shoot down their answers. If you knew the answer beforehand, why'd you ask the question? You said you haven't watched much ECW, you said you don't watch Smackdown!. I see your point on some things but your point on others is just wrong.

 

I started the thread so that I could figure out why people think Heyman is great and why they say"that had Heyman's fingerprints all over it" whenever they see something they like. People said that Heyman was good at focusing on people's strengths. I then said ok, that's point in his favor and I proceeded to say that he can't be a genius just for doing that. I then asked when Heyman was on because like I said, I never really watched ECW and I haven't watched Smackdown in months. If I haven't really seen his work, what's wrong with asking about it? I didn't say that any of his angles were bad or good, I just asked for some of the good ones to be pointed out to me. I'm just trying to understand where people are coming from with these accolades.

[Guest NoCalMike]

Heyman had a knack for making something out of nothing. He took the other feds "jobbers" and made them legit. He was interested in booking in order to make the MATCHES interesting without going overboard. He wanted mic work, not catchphrases. The comedy in ECW was a hell of a lot better than 90% of the stuff you see on RAW. I think Heyman's downfall was helped largely by two things. For one, in the early days, Tod Gordon was in Charge, and Heyman just booked. When Gordon severed his ties with ECW, Heyman had to try and carry the load of wrestling/booking AND all the business aspects by himself. It proved a load to heavy for him to handle alone. Also, when ECW starting going to PPV, I think Vince/Bischoff had enough of this "underground, renegade" promotion trying to make a name for itself, and they repeaditly raided their talent roster, only to have the guys barely even used in WWF/WCW. I think the most genius move by Heyman is when Gurerro/Malenko left much to the chagrin of the fans, he replaced them with Luchadores for the first time in North America, in Rey Mysterio/Psicosis/Juventud.....Watching the fans faces and jaws just drop as they are in awe for the first time seeing this is so PRICELESS.....I think that is one of those moments that can never be replicated, and who really gives a shit if it was only in front of 2000 people.

[Guest NoCalMike]

Another thing. It is simply amazing how after all this time and with wrestling fans apparent, "short memories" certain cities still get excited when they see two former combatants from ECW going at it. Remember the reception Tommy and RVD got, for the final hardcore belt match?? Tommy looked like he was gonna cry, and RVD just looked shocked. ECW left a lasting impression, and much of it was due to Heyman's booking.

[Guest Brian]

The booking of Brock drastically improved when he moved to SmackDown for Brock/Rock and made it an interesting main event.

 

The thing is about Heyman, he knows how to put wrestling at the forefront without losing sight of the sports entertainment.

[Guest BlackRainbow1025]

The following that ECW had/has is amazing. Say what you want about the talent or storylines or bingo halls or whatever, but they really connected with their fans. I mean, still to this day, E-C-Dub chants break out at shows. I haven't heard any Dub-Dub-E or Dub-C-Dub chants, haha. Something about ECW made it feel like it was yours, like something know one else knew about. I think that's where a lot of the respect from Heyman stems from.

[Guest cabbageboy]

Dude, Justin Credible won the ECW world title...Rob Van Dam did not. I think that says it all in terms of how badly RVD was used near the end in ECW. Every major feud Heyman built to with RVD ended up not quite happening as planned....Taz jobbed the title to Awesome, thus making the surefire RVD/Taz match meaningless. Awesome then left ECW while RVD was hurt, preventing that potential money match. I guess he didn't job for 2 years but he was merely the TV champ. By having him be so dominant at the TV level it sort of killed the heat of the world champ....it hurt Taz a little bit and really hurt Mike Awesome. The whole argument of being over without the title has always struck me especially retarded. Your most over guy should DEFINITELY be your world champion, especially if he's never even held the title! See, one could argue that the Rock didn't need the title in late 1999 because he was seriously over without it....but he had already been a 3 time champ. RVD never won the ECW world title, so it was like a cloud over every champion's head.

[Guest gthureson]

Paul Heyman is not a genius. A genius is someone like Norman Einstein. *

 

 

 

*Gold star is you know the source of that reference.

[Guest Cataclysm911]

"Why does everyone think Heyman is a genius?"

 

Because he ran ECW and ECW was an alternative to WWF that lasted more than 6 months.

[Guest notJames]

Paul Heyman is not a genius. A genius is someone like Norman Einstein. *

 

 

 

*Gold star is you know the source of that reference.

God Bless Joe Theismann.

 

*

[Guest the 1inch punch]

I'll never quite read an APO post the same after he called MIKEY WHIPWRECK (see avatar) a talentless hack...

 

I don't really have anything to add, honestly. Other than this:

The very first time I ever saw ECW was the Heat Wave 1998 PPV. I read the hype about ECW in the magazines (PWI, Inside Wrestling, etc; The Apter Mags), and heard older wrestling fans talking about ECW constantly. So my parents ordered the Heat Wave 1998 PPV for me. I watched the pre-game show with such attention that I can still remember nearly everything covered in it, and thinking "who the fuck is this hick?" the first time I saw a clip of Balls Mahoney without his t-shirt on, and only the top of the singlet acting as a wifebeater. The lead-up to Dreamer/Sandman/Spike vs. The Dudley Boyz made me want to see the match, and I didn't even know who the hell ANY of these guys were. I came in a WWF/WCW Mark wanting to see what all the fuss was about, and when the show went off the air, I left an ECW Mutant with a taste for wrestling that the other companies wouldn't dare touch for years, and a need for angles/feuds/storylines as beautiful as anything Dreamer was involved in.

 

If that doesn't say "genius" to me, I don't know what does.

That ppv is pretty much how I got into ECW

 

Thanks for bringing back some great memories Corey

[Guest the pinjockey]

I don't understand the RVD should have been champ arguement. In the end when ECW started to die they should have made him the champ because that was the only card left, but prior to that there was no need. RVD was the most over guy in the company so he did not need the belt. Also his TV title run made the TV title just as if not more important than the world title. What could possibly be wrong with having two belts that the fanbase perceives to be very important. We are always clamoring for the WWF to make the IC belt worth something and to make it the step right underneath the World Title. Heyman did that with a two year RVD run that made the TV title very important. And IIRC RVD was not really a big proponent of wanting the belt or anything like that he just wanted to go out have 25 minutes for a match so he could do his thing. So there was no real threat of alienating the top star and it freed up the championship to be in a feud between people that were thisclose to being ECWs top stars and the championship could put them over the top.

[Guest Brian]

"And IIRC RVD was not really a big proponent of wanting the belt or anything like that he just wanted to go out have 25 minutes for a match so he could do his thing."

 

Spot. Stall. Spot. Play to crowd. Spot. Miss spot. Stall.

[Guest the pinjockey]

"And IIRC RVD was not really a big proponent of wanting the belt or anything like that he just wanted to go out have 25 minutes for a match so he could do his thing."

 

Spot. Stall. Spot. Play to crowd. Spot. Miss spot. Stall.

I knew that was coming at some point. But my point still stands that that is all he really wanted was time.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

You know I really don't get the ECW love. For every great match there were several horrible ones. Joey Styles was probably one of the most annoying men alive and everyone's hot shit better than other companies attitude was really annoying. Add to that the RVD/Lynn "classics" aren't even that good and half of there wrestlers weren't that good and the good ones were just using it as a stepping stone into the big leagues all that just makes me wonder why it was considered so great.....

[Guest Brian]

I know, it's just that it was much too tempting.

 

Anyways, to the Heyman thing, what I love most is the subtle changes he's been making. TAG ROPE~!

 

It wasn't the wrestling Damaramu, it was more Heyman making these weak characters and wrestlers seem important and good even though they weren't (okay, maybe Lynn was).

[Guest notJames]

Plus Heyman gave the North American fans an alternative to the spoon-fed Vince and Turner stuff. Not everyone has access to puro/lucha/indy stuff, nor the desire to track it all down. Heyman brought that kind of international/alternative flavour lacking in the mainstream wrestling scene.