Forgotten Classics

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Haven't seen Bret/Flair, but Michaels/Hart went no-where with any of it's psych, ever. Feeling out sequences on the mat are fine; feeling out sequences that last for forty minutes are not. It was a bad match, because neither guy sold anything, nothing was ever built to, and the finish was fetid garbage. Bad match.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I gotta give credit to the guy who mentioned Eddie/Benoit from RAW (I think it was Ricky) - that was a DAMNED good match. It went for a good 8 minutes or somethin, and I heard that Eddie had the flu during it, which makes it even more impressive.

 

Hart/HBK was no good. The simple fact that the match went against it's own psychology (most pins in an hour wins) makes it a bad match. If they just wanted a 60 minute match, why not have just a 60 minute match?

[Guest Big McLargeHuge]

Ah, the classic case of egos clashing. I think it's pretty safe to say that if there was ever an automatic ***** match, HBK/Hart was that match. They could've sleep-walked to a ****3/4 match. Such wasted potential. I remember hearing about the Iron man match and it getting MOTY honors from PWI that year as well as high recommendations from friends. When I finally watched it (2 years later) I couldn't fathom how anybody rated this more than ****. It was boring.

I can appreciate the slow build at the beginning that is Bret's trademark. In fact, I love it. But when that surpasses the 40 minute mark in a match, it's just boring and shows carelessness. Though I must admit, the last 15 minutes were fucking awesome, IMO. Had the match just been 25 - 30 minutes of these two going at it the way we all knew they could...easy MOTY.

 

And I preferred Rock/Hunter 4 years later. God bless the Rock.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I dunno, with Hart's offensive often times resembling that of a 70's wrestler clashing with Shawn's over-selling, and just Shawn being Shawn, I'm not sure how good it could have been on it's own. There was a lot of wasted potential between those two, but I think SS '92 proves that the idea that "Bret and Shawn could sleep-walk through a ***** together if they wanted to" is far fetched, to say the least.

[Guest Big McLargeHuge]

But you've got to keep in mind Shawn was hadn't peaked at that point (92). While I thought he was great in the Rockers, he hadn't really done anything as a singles wrestler with the exception of rocking house shows with Bret and Bulldog. Looking back, I still don't think he did anything noteworthy until mid-95 (with the exception of the Ladder match, of course), where he started to peak.

 

My point is, the match is rated high mostly due to its pontential, as both men were considered the top two workers in the promotion. It's what's happening with Angle/Benoit at the moment. Last year when the two were fueding, most were expecting an automatic ****3/4 match at WM. They instead got a 30 minute match cut short, a fued around crotch flavored medals and a couple of re-matches that didn't live up to expectations. That's what I mean. The whole Benoit/Angle series from last year was so underwhelming to me. In fact, I thought their best match occured on a RAW ep where they had the blow-off in a steel cage.

[Guest cabbageboy]

"Juvi/Blitzkrieg was better than any match involving Ki, Styles, or Lynn from the last few years, save Lo Ki/American Dragon from ECWA's Super 8 Tourni last year."

 

Oh please. The LoKi/Styles/Lynn 3 way on the NWA (the regular match, not ladder) was loads better than Blitzkrieg/Juvi. I watched both matches back to back to see how they compare.

 

Blitz/Juvi was a match I had fond memories of but it doesn't hold up that well. There is a lot of down time and a few missed spots. The Styles/LoKi/Lynn match was really awesome I thought....everything was hit to perfection aside from the slightly odd ending. That is the only advantage Juvi/Blitz has on it: the ending is admittedly still jaw dropping.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Shawn was considered a great worker even in '92, and the more of his work I see from '93-94, the more it seems like his "miracle run" in '96 wasn't much better than his earlier stuff. I really don't see any reason to believe that Shawn became a better worker in '96-97, since, in a lot of ways, he made even more mistakes in a lot of his matches than he had before.

 

Angle wasn't the top worker in the company last year. I would rank Austin higher, for sure, and probably Eddy, too. Often times it takes a feud like Angle/Benoit to show how highly the New Great Worker ranks compared to the old stand-by's. Angle was exposed in that feud, to an extent, because even with his amature background and conditioning, he got totally gassed doing matwork with Benoit and started Zybyzco stalling to buy time. I think it's possible that Owen was better than Michaels in '96, too, and once Austin arived, I think one good make a very good case for him, too.

 

As for Lynn/Styles/Ki, all of the spots may have hit, but like all three-ways, there's no way to build a consistant flow. They just do the "one guy out, two guys fight, rince, repeat" formula that just makes for lots of spots. Juvi/Blitzkrieg built up it's spots logically until they pulled out the big guns and was just a way better spot-fest.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Yeah, Krieg and Juvi was a load of fun.

 

I haven't seen Low Ki/Lynn/Styles though (and i have absolutely no desire to) so I don't know if that is better.

 

Michaels was always more of a great performer than a great wrestler, but I doun't think Owen was as good as him in 96.

[Guest Brian]

I think Owen had lost it by 1996 IMO. He was nothing like he was earlier in the 90's and he just didn't recover.

 

Choshu, you still need to see the ROH three-way. I think if you comapre the two matches, the TNA three-way to the ROH, you really see how vital it is to having a guy like Dragon in there (the glue) compared to Lo Ki and having someone with experience like Daniels who takes fucking everything.

 

"Angle was exposed in that feud, to an extent, because even with his amature background and conditioning, he got totally gassed doing matwork with Benoit and started Zybyzco stalling to buy time."

 

Sadly, I'm afraid we'll see a repeat as Angle hasn't really seemed to go out of his way in incorporating different kind of things into his matches, and seems more intent on throwing away the build up and just shooting the nearfalls and false finishes at the end to make it seem exciting.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

It's hard to say - in their title match, Owen seemed to be the better worker, but if you look at the overall year, Michaels was better. The performance Michaels had at Mind Games out-shined anything Owen did in '96, I have to admit. Still, I think Austin was better than Michaels in '96, not only by wrestling smarter most of the time, but out-doing Michaels at SS '96 vs. Bret, which I liked more than Mind Games. I haven't seen KOTR '96 with Michaels/Bulldog, though. Some people rank that higher than both Survivor Series and Mind Games.

 

You're right, I really do need to see the ROH three way. American Dragon has a really awesome skill for reeling in spotty workers to amazing matches, as proven by his Super 8 final vs. Lo Ki that was just so amazing for an indy match. I'm not sure he can real in two spotty workers by himself in a three way, but I think if anyone is capable of it, it's him.

[Guest Brian]

Compared to Lo Ki, I think Daniels is more of a guy who bring a great match flow but it just degenerates into spotty work.

[Guest godthedog]

It's hard to say - in their title match, Owen seemed to be the better worker, but if you look at the overall year, Michaels was better. The performance Michaels had at Mind Games out-shined anything Owen did in '96, I have to admit. Still, I think Austin was better than Michaels in '96, not only by wrestling smarter most of the time, but out-doing Michaels at SS '96 vs. Bret, which I liked more than Mind Games. I haven't seen KOTR '96 with Michaels/Bulldog, though. Some people rank that higher than both Survivor Series and Mind Games.

 

You're right, I really do need to see the ROH three way. American Dragon has a really awesome skill for reeling in spotty workers to amazing matches, as proven by his Super 8 final vs. Lo Ki that was just so amazing for an indy match. I'm not sure he can real in two spotty workers by himself in a three way, but I think if anyone is capable of it, it's him.

doesn't seem fair to compare the performances at survivor series, since michaels had sid to work with and austin had bret...unless you're talking about comparing the iron man match to survivor series, in which case i wholeheartedly agree.

 

i wouldn't go out of my way to see hbk/bulldog. there's way too much resting to get any kind of consistent flow going, and the pacing just never clicked--it never really 'got going' as a match, so to speak. anyone who ranks it higher than mindgames is on crack (or, as in dreamer420's case, on lots and lots of weed).

[Guest Brian]

He's comparing Mind Gmaes to Survivor Series.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

dreamer is also a guy who considers HIAC II to be a ***** match because "they gave it their all to entertain the fans." Yeah, ok.

 

And I was indeed comparing Mindgames and Surivor Series. Obviously, I'm not going to fault Shawn for getting less out of Sid than Austin got out of Bret. I will fault the fuck-wads that rank Sid/Michales at ****, though. They can go eat toilet disenfectant.

[Guest Brian]

I wonder how good Mind Games would have been with more time and a better finish.

[Guest Big McLargeHuge]

I'd still rate it just below Austin/Hart. My reasons are posted in another thread somewhere. But basically, I think Hart/Austin told a better story.

[Guest XdojimeX]

"I gotta give credit to the guy who mentioned Eddie/Benoit from RAW (I think it was Ricky) - that was a DAMNED good match."

 

Really? I wasn't crazy about it. Benoit was solid, but Eddy looked pretty off at times (flu, painkillers, who knows). The usual tepid Cali crowd didn't help. They looked rushed for some reason, and those guys never looked rushed let alone in the same match together. I remember watching a couple of their off the chart BosJ matches like a few days earlier so that probably contributed to my being underwhelmed.

 

With Eddy being back in form and Benoit being Benoit I'd love to see them revive their rivalry again (which smokes Eddy/Dean in my book). But that RAW match wasn't their best work.

 

"Angle was exposed in that feud, to an extent, because even with his amature background and conditioning, he got totally gassed doing matwork with Benoit and started Zybyzco stalling to buy time."

 

Angle's stalling was bad, and they had some odd cross-ups in the ring. I'd blame Benoit too though. Benoit has had a tendancy at times to give his opponents too much as a face when he should be the one leading. Seemed to give Angle too much credit last year. But this feud was handcuffed by the poorly thought out gimmick matches they kept rolling out more than anything. Wrestlemania match showed a lot of promise but the next three matches just got cluttered with the goofy stips and booking (or dangerous in the case of the cage match).

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I'm not saying that Eddy/Benoit from last year was their best work - far from it. Their NJ Juniors work is highly touted, and with good reason. However, their Raw match was remarkable, because it was a pay-per view quality match on free TV, saw them do things they wouldn't normally do against other apponents, and it had a great, clean finish. I admit, it seemed rushed, but that's probably because they didn't have enough time to get across what they wanted to. Remember, it was the match that aimed to turn Benoit face, and as someone who had been a heel for 99.9% of his WWF run, that was quite a task.

 

I agree, Benoit was to blame for a lot of the flaws in his series with Angle, too. He gave him too much room and didn't reel him in as much as he should. Though he had a more dificult task on his hands with Rob Van Dam, their matches have basically been the same thing; Benoit expected Rob to sell, bump, and still have time to pace his comebacks, which was beyond Rob's ability.

[Guest godthedog]

I wonder how good Mind Games would have been with more time and a better finish.

didn't mindgames have something like 26 minutes? what else would they have done?

 

about the ending, just do what i do: when michaels covers after giving foley the superkick through the chair, act like the match is over & fast forward to where shawn's celebrating by himself in the ring, cause that SHOULD'VE been the finish. easyeasyeasy five stars.

 

EDIT: almost forgot my weekly pimping of the bret/flair iron man match as the quintessential overlooked classic. and i don't think the benoit/angle cage match gets enough MOTYC credit. everybody just remembers those 3 big bumps, but the match as whole between the bumps was amazing. better repeat value than the raw tag match.

[Guest Brian]

The thing is about Bret/Flair, it's not overlooked, it's just rarely seen. The only match I'd give five stars with no doubt.

 

As for Mind Games, the needed to actually start building to a point where the finish was feasable. The match still hadn't really peaked at that point. Oh, it's damn great though.

[Guest godthedog]

hadn't peaked? dude, they'd done a backdrop suplex from the top rope through a table on the outside, & shawn michaels had just hit his finisher through a chair to foley on the top rope, where do you go from there?

[Guest Your Olympic Hero]

Booker T Vs Scott Steiner(Mayhem 2000)

Ric Flair Vs Curt Henning( World War 3 97 )

Blew dick.

[Guest Your Olympic Hero]

Hart/HBK was no good. The simple fact that the match went against it's own psychology (most pins in an hour wins) makes it a bad match. If they just wanted a 60 minute match, why not have just a 60 minute match?

I think they were almost scared that they would blow up midway through a 60 minute match, because as far as I know, Shawn had never worked a 60 minute match, and Bret had worked only a few with Flair and Owen (Gods). So maybe they cut down the pace and bored us because they didnt' want to completely blow up 30 minutes in. Maybe?

[Guest Brian]

But it was still building to a real finish. I agree there were some great spots, but it still felt like they needed to build towards something more at the end.