Forgotten Classics

[Guest bob_barron]

Oh boo-hoo poor Austin.

 

This is the guy who personally requested a feud with Eddy Guerrero, which he got, and then walked out in the middle of it.

 

Austin wasn't even gonna job clean to Hall and the job was gonna be excused to explain the roster split instead of Linda going: Hey uhhh let's brand extend.

 

And I don't see why Austin had to go over Booker T and make him look like a complete moron in the process.

[Guest Incandenza]

Let's not forget Austin's departure leaving Benoit out in the cold, having he and Guerrero feud with the friggin' New Dudley Boyz. A feud with Austin could've set Benoit in a good direction, but he's been aimless since his return.

[Guest Goodear]

The thing about Austin would be that he would work well with about 4 guys (Triple H, Rock, Angle, Benoit) at a time and pull out some classic stuff but then would go and make everyone else on the roster look like pure crap. The guy would litteraly beat up 5-10 guys at a time, by himself. Heck, one Royal Rumble was booked as though it would be 29 guys versus Austin... and the 29 guys couldn't stop him!!! And if you put Steve against any sort of underdog, you could forget it.... Steve would crush them like a grape without even giving them the fluke 2 count Triple H would give anyone he could find. So anyway, Steve was incredibly good for the main event, but bad for everyone else... and there you have it.

[Guest Anglesault]

 

 

This is the guy who personally requested a feud with Eddy Guerrero, which he got, and then walked out in the middle of it.

 

Because they wanted him to enter the King of the Ring tournament for Lord knows what reason, and Job to Brock (who at that point, showed some promise) in a pointless match after two hours of build. WHY? Austin had every right to storm out. They were just throwing shit at the wall, and hoping it would stick. And Austin was smart to get out when he did, because the writers had grown bored with him, and were just wasting him.

 

 

Austin wasn't even gonna job clean to Hall and the job was gonna be excused to explain the roster split instead of Linda going: Hey uhhh let's brand extend.

 

Hall is a Drunk. He has been given many, many, MANY chances to reform. He showed up to Wrestlemania Drunk/Hungover. Austin should not have jobbed to him, espially wsince anyone with half a brain correetly predicted that Hall would be gone before King of the Ring. The Brand extension would have made just as much sense if Vince cost Flair his match against Taker.

 

 

And I don't see why Austin had to go over Booker T and make him look like a complete moron in the process.

 

Wrong Place, Wrong time, Wrong guy. Booker was just a casualty of Austin's rage at that point. He didn't deserve it, but Austin did what he had to do.

 

I can't belive that you think a guy who carried the company on his back in 2001 should be jobbing to scum 5 matches into Wrestlemania.

[Guest Goodear]

Wrong Place, Wrong time, Wrong guy. Booker was just a casualty of Austin's rage at that point. He didn't deserve it, but Austin did what he had to do.

Wait, Steve had to beat the piss out of Booker why exactly? I'm pretty sure Booker wasn't the one causing Austin trouble since he's been solidly in the midcard since the Austin program. Face it. Austin murdered Booker like he has three intitials because he felt like it. Any of this "path of rage" nonsense is pure bull.

[Guest Anglesault]

Wrong Place, Wrong time, Wrong guy. Booker was just a casualty of Austin's rage at that point. He didn't deserve it, but Austin did what he had to do.

Wait, Steve had to beat the piss out of Booker why exactly? I'm pretty sure Booker wasn't the one causing Austin trouble since he's been solidly in the midcard since the Austin program. Face it. Austin murdered Booker like he has three intitials because he felt like it. Any of this "path of rage" nonsense is pure bull.

 

 

 

 

If Austin just kowtowed to the writers and did what they wanted of him, he would have been humiliated and forced out of the company. At least this way, he was able to leave on his own accord. Face it. They were TRYING to make him quit. Jobbing to Book would have been the beginning. He had to show them he wouldn't comply

 

 

 

Let's not forget Austin's departure leaving Benoit out in the cold, having he and Guerrero feud with the friggin' New Dudley Boyz. A feud with Austin could've set Benoit in a good direction, but he's been aimless since his return.

 

Don't blame Austin. I don't think Austin would have made it past KotR if he stayed, and it wouldn't have been his decision. Austin got out before he was physically FORCED out, Bret style. They were trying to get Austin to quit.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Austin/Benoit blew away the TLC 3 match, and was significantly better than CVC/2-Man Power Trip. Better pacing, timing, and selling, I'd say.

 

And I don't see what was wrong with any of the Austin/Booker matches. Austin actually worked pretty well with Booker, especially considering he was a JTTS with no credibility. Compare that match with HHH's outings against midcarders these days and it's clear Austin was quite generous. Of course, he never showed Hall the same courtesy, but I think we all know why that was.

 

And yeah, for a guy who had three bone fractures in his back, Austin was a total nut-case to take bumps like that from Benoit.

[Guest Anglesault]

And I don't see what was wrong with any of the Austin/Booker matches. Austin actually worked pretty well with Booker, especially considering he was a JTTS with no credibility.

I THINK they mean the lumberjack match. If not, you are totally right.

[Guest bob_barron]

Austin/Benoit blew away the TLC 3 match, and was significantly better than CVC/2-Man Power Trip. Better pacing, timing, and selling, I'd say.

 

And I don't see what was wrong with any of the Austin/Booker matches. Austin actually worked pretty well with Booker, especially considering he was a JTTS with no credibility. Compare that match with HHH's outings against midcarders these days and it's clear Austin was quite generous. Of course, he never showed Hall the same courtesy, but I think we all know why that was.

 

And yeah, for a guy who had three bone fractures in his back, Austin was a total nut-case to take bumps like that from Benoit.

 

Ricky-

The last RAW before Judgement Day Austin took on the newest member of the nWo Booker T in a lumerjack match. Austin looked awful and somehow got to go over the whole fucking RAW roster. It made Booker T and the nWo look like complete and utter failures.

 

Austin also once in August of 2001 squashed Matt Hardy for no real reason. I mean whoopity shit Austin can beat Matt Hardy.

 

About Austin jobbing to Hall-

I wouldn't have been so upset with Austin winning had the whole feud not been Austin pretty much beating the fuck out of the nWo and making Hall look like well a complete incompetent fool. Had the feud been the nWo making his life a living hell, beating the piss out of him everytime they met (with Austin like selling) and then at WM after taking abuse, Austin finally musters in one last comeback and wins- I have no problem with it.

 

But Austin giving Hall 8,000 stunners in one match really helped kill the nWo dead.

[Guest Anglesault]

There should have been NO Hall/Austin feud. Austin deserved more, and Hall doesn't deserve to be in the same ring as Steve. When you get to the point where they are saving a guy from Mania just in case the guy you are feuding with gets fired, would YOU sell? Especially if you are being disrespected by management and being forced to quit?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Ah, sorry, I totally forgot the lumberjack match. As you've probably figuered out, I was referring to Austin vs. pre-nWo Booker, which was always entertaining, in my book.

 

Indeed, the lumberjack match was a joke, with Brock gaining more credibility by laying out Austin on the outside than Booker to got in the match. Basically, I would attribute this with Austin being totally unhappy with the direction, and rightfully so. The nWo feud was horrendous, and Austin should never have been put in that possition. As it was pointed out above, Austin should have never been put in the same ring with Hall, period.

 

As for the Matt Hardy match, Austin gave Matt more offense in that match than HHH gave Jeff Hardy in both of their IC title matches combined, and Austin was holding the world title. Don't knock Austin for going over a midcarder, knock the writers for giving him nothing better to do.

 

As his matches with Flair showed, I think Austin still had plenty of ability in him, and then some. Had he been motivated, or should I say, rewarded for the tireless effort and first-rate job of carrying the company 2001, things might have gone differently. Instead, he got put up against a bunch of guys who Vince thought were more important, and most of those guys are ancient history now, so who was in the wrong there?

[Guest MaxPower27]

As for the Matt Hardy match, Austin gave Matt more offense in that match than HHH gave Jeff Hardy in both of their IC title matches combined, and Austin was holding the world title. Don't knock Austin for going over a midcarder, knock the writers for giving him nothing better to do.

 

You're right Ricky. The "buildup" to that match was that Lita questioned Debra for staying with Steve, which Debra told Austin, changing a few points to get Steve irked so that he'd whoop Matt's ass. I always felt that Steve gave midcarders some offense, and made them look OK.

 

I'm torn on MOTY of 2001, as well. I love Benoit v. Austin. I love Kurt v. Benoit @ WMX7. And, I'm not a mark, but I like HHH v. Austin @ NWO.

 

 

AS, I agree with you about Austin. I'd be pretty pissed too if I went from being World Champ 1 year prior, and then in a heatless match against a loser like Hall.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I'm sorry, but I just couldn't get into HHH/Austin at all. Even if I were one to really enoy that type of WWF-Style Brawl, I would never put it above Benoit/Austin, which may be one my favorite WWF matches ever.

 

I still, for the life of me, can't figuer out what everyone loves about No Way Out '01. It's bizarro world logic, or something. Then again, I've seen people rate Michaels/HHH at *****, so I guess I shouldn't be too surised anymore.

[Guest Brian]

Besides that match, I liked both Rock/Jericho matches (despite the finish of Vengeance) and Rock/Austin.

 

I've never understood the love for the NWO match either. The last fall especially kills off any good thoughts I've had of it. The brawling is just brutal in a bad way.

[Guest Big McLargeHuge]

Well, I liked the Austin/HHH 3 stages of hell match...MOTY? No. Like others I was completely blown away by Benoit/Austin from SD! Pure wrestling for 20 solid minutes on free tv. Awe. Some.

 

I will say that Austin/HHH had a great build-up to it. It's probably the reason so many rate it so high. It's the same reason I loved Flair/UT from this year's Mania. I thought the fued was excellent, the match solid. Together, just plain goodness. At least IMO.

 

Was No Mercy 01 released commercially? I have yet to see Jericho/Rock and was told it was a solid MOTYC.

[Guest Brian]

I think the wrestling portion of the Vengeance match, as in the part before the finish, was building to something much better than No Mercy. I think I gave No Mercy ***1/2, and Benoit/Austin **** for reference.

[Guest Michael Joel Benoit]

I think The Rock vs. Mankind vs. Ken Shamrock Triple Threat Cage Match from Breakdown: In Your House is an underapperciated classic.

[Guest bob_barron]

I loved the Vengeance finish personally.

 

It showed that Rock hadn't learned from No Mercy and once again Jericho called him on it and won.

 

Sure a clean finish would've been nice but I kinda like how the one match Rock won in the feud was because of no McMahon interference.

No Mercy and Vengeance are both DVD/VHS BTW.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

I think The Rock vs. Mankind vs. Ken Shamrock Triple Threat Cage Match from Breakdown: In Your House is an underapperciated classic.

 

 

Did you want to just pulled its pants revealing a thong and kissed its BUTT cheeks?

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

I know it's pimped fairly regularly, but Angle vs Benoit from WM X7 was one ofthe last WWE matches I remember that featured real, in-depth psychology and archetypal patterns.

 

- Canada vs USA (Hey, it wasn't brought up, but it was there)

- Amateur God vs Pro Wrestling God

- New Hot Shot vs Grizzled Vet

- Moonsault vs Swan Dive Heabutt

- Ankle Lock vs Crossface

- Belly to Belly vs Rolling Germans

 

The whole thing was done to perfection, as the the revolving theme was that Angle has to keep stepping it up because Benoit is schooling him in every area. Benoit beats Angle in an amateur mat session, Angle cheapshots Benoit with a punch. Benoit gets a tapout from the crossface (ref bumped), ankle lock gets Angle nowhere. Moonsault misses, diving headbutt hits. Angle slam gets a kickout, so Angle becomes a desperate man and "desperate men do desperate things", as Angle rolls up Benoit with a handful of tights for the 3.

 

At first the finish pissed me off, but I now realize that it fit in perfectly with the rest of the match.

 

If anybody can think of anything since then that has had that much psychology/archtypes, please tell me, because Angle/Benoit is the only thing that comes to mind.

[Guest BAR]

My favourite TV match, which is definately a forgotten classic is Ric Flair vs. Mr. Perfect: Loser Leaves WWF Match - Monday Night Raw, January 25, 1993.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

As far as the whole Austin argument goes, blame the NWO. There was no reason for them to be brought in in the first place, and when they showed up, the whole company started to suck. I fucking hate the nWo and always have, even back when it was "cool"

[Guest Midnight Express83]

Man I will pay someone money if they get me a comp of Austin 2001, with all his good matches and promos on it.

Ie:

vs Benoit on RAW in Jan

vs Angle on RAW in Jan

vs HHH at Backlash 01

vs Rocky at X7

w/ HHH vs CVC

vs Benoit on RAW in May

vs Benoit on SD in May

vs Benoit vs Jericho at King of the Ring.

vs Angle at Summerslam

vs Angle at Unforgiven

vs Jericho in Dec

vs Jericho at Vengence

 

promos

The first what promo belitting Raven

The Sing along with the Rock

the beat down of Ross

the promo on the Chris's

the angle/austin combo from June through July

 

 

As for forgotten matches, anything with owen Hart in it thats not at Wrestlemania 10 is pretty much forgotten.

[Guest notJames]

Owen vs. Shamrock: Lion's Den, Summerslam '98

[Guest cabbageboy]

I also love that Perfect/Flair match, I ended up getting it on tape at long last.

 

By the way that Austin comp should also have the RVD SMDN match on it....one of the few times in years I have truly marked out. That was also on the one planned live SMDN show (the one on Sept. 13 was live too due to the attacks) so I didn't know the spoiler beforehand.

 

Speaking of forgotten RVD matches, I enjoyed the Vengeance match with UT a lot. That was basically UT's only good outing of 2001 come to think of it! I guess his match with HHH was pretty good too.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Eh, that RVD match was pretty short and isn't much aside form the finish.

 

I'd add the Austin/Angle match from from 2 weeks after Unforgiven because it's probably the second best match they had that year with the SummerSLam match being a little bit better.

[Guest bob_barron]

The Unforigven match was okay- it was just really dumb and I hated the ending. Worst Austin v. Angle match IMO.

 

I think the Austin v. Angle match from Jan 2001 was their second best match.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Not the Unforgiven match, Bob. The rematch 2 weeks later where Regal joined the Alliance.

[Guest FeArHaVoC]

I forgot what the name of the show was. "Showdown to Survivor Series" or something, it aired on Thursday before Survivor Series 93.

 

The main event was Bret Hart Vs Yoko for the title. The match was really good and better then both of the other two Bret had with him. It ended with a screwy finish with Owen getting Bret DQ'ed but the match was, IMO, Yoko's best ever in the WWF.

[Guest bob_barron]

Not the Unforgiven match, Bob. The rematch 2 weeks later where Regal joined the Alliance.

That match was great as usual and it involved Regal so I loved it.

 

I'd rank the series-

1.SummSlam 2001

2.RAW 1.7.01

3.RAW 1.28.02

4.Vengeance

5.RAW 10.8.01

6.SD! 1.10.02

7.RAW 11.26.00

8.SD in Feb 2001

9.Unforgiven