Just for the sake of arguement...

[Guest bob_barron]

Brethart4ever: There was plenty of better stuff in '93, trust me. Flair/Vader is really quite pedrestrian compared to the stuff Vader did with Sting, some of Windham's matches, and even the work of pre-prime Benoit.

 

Plus, there was that match Flair had with Hart that usually get possitive reviews. I haven't seen that one yet.

That's what I figured. I haven't seen Superbrawl 3, so eh. I bet Scorpio/Benoit was better then Flair/Vader.

Superbrawl 3 kicks a lot of ass except I liked Flair v. Vader more than Benoit v. Scorpio.

 

 

I did a review for 411 and if I can find it- I'll link it.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Yeah, Baisden is a tool. I owe him for pimping Ohtani so much, but he's oblivious, most of the time. Everytime he does something intelligent (i.e., giving Hash/Chosyu the love it deserves) he doubles right back and starts pimping Austin/HHH 2/3 falls as a blow-away match.

 

If I read "KOBASHI IS FUCKED!!!!!!" one more time I think my head's going to explode.

 

Anyway, I really don't think Flair/Vader was as good as Benoit/Scorpio, and I don't understand why Flair/Vader is hyped so much. I think the two just weren't compatible. Maybe when Flair was younger, but '93 Flair wasn't going to mesh with Vader, and I think the two of them knew that. Flair looked out of shape, Vader looked uncharictaristically awkward, and the whole thing just seemed like a mess. Vader has taken old men and mauled them to great matches before. This just wasn't one of them.

[Guest bob_barron]

Benoit v. Scorpio wasn't as great as I hoped while Vader v. Flair was one of those matches I got emotionally into- like I wanted Flair to win sooo bad

[Guest RobJohnstone]

"Kanemoto kicks out.  2.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999

999999999999999999999999999999999:

 

He has no clue about wrestling.  Basically a SKeith clone with a tolerance for some Puro.

 

Tim

definitly an SK clone. Before he started writing on rantsylvania I was in a tape review sort of club with him and many others. He was always just a clone and i let him know what I thought but....... I guess thats why he got the gig of writing for rantsylvania(now thesmarks). I guess if you kiss someones ass enough it could happen to you

 

Examples of such are here

 

http://pub17.ezboard.com/fburninghammerboa...picID=125.topic

 

--Rob

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Scorpio/Benoit, Scorpio/Windham, and Vader/Sting all kick the ass of Vader/Flair seven ways to next Saturday.

 

Flair took a decent beating but look at a 53 Inoki taking a REAL beating from Vader on 1/4/96. Look at Vader working state of the art with Takada in UWF-I. Flair was done by 1990.

 

Tim

[Guest godthedog]

Scorpio/Benoit, Scorpio/Windham, and Vader/Sting all kick the ass of Vader/Flair seven ways to next Saturday.

 

Flair took a decent beating but look at a 53 Inoki taking a REAL beating from Vader on 1/4/96.  Look at Vader working state of the art with Takada in UWF-I.  Flair was done by 1990.  

 

Tim

spoken by a true prodigy who has not beheld the greatness of the IRON MAN MATCH OF DOOM!!!

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Then I ask, what is so great about the Hart/Flair Iron Man Match?

 

It was slow...it had very little psych other than the quick submission to submission tap outs...Flair and Hart DO NOT work good together...Bret didn't like Flair's style (from Hart's mouth).

 

Tim, flattered to be called a prodigy

[Guest Midnight Express83]

that iron man match was good, not great...but my picks.

 

92: tough yeat to pick MOTY so I go with my biased: Wargames 92

93: Sting vs Vader Slamboree

94: Again tough call but I say match of the year was Owen vs Bret. WMX

95: Ladder Match II SS95

96: HBK vs Mankind IYH Mindgames

97: Bret vs Austin WM13

98: Austin vs Foley OTE 98

99: Foley vs The Rock- Last Man Standing.

00: Foley vs HHH- Rumble 00

01: Benoit vs Austin, Smackdown.

02: Benoit vs Angle-Unforgiven.

[cawthon777 0]

92: Bret Hart vs. the British Bulldog from Summer Slam

 

93: Bret Hart vs. Ric Flair marathon match from Boston

(Flair/Vader from Starrcade is a close second)

 

94: Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart from WrestleMania X

 

95: Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon from Summer Slam

(I personally hate this match but haven't seen enough of ECW at this time to pick one specific match to beat it; probably anything would do)

 

96: Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin from Survivor Series

(Malenko/Mysterio from Havoc is a close second)

 

97: Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin from WrestleMania XIII

(chosen for different reasons than the first; this was probably the most influencial match of the 90s and sent Austin on his rise of fame while it spelled the eventual downfall of Hart in the WWF which led to Montreal)

 

98: Chris Benoit vs. Booker T from the Best of 7 series

(pick one, just make sure Benoit won)

 

99: Edge & Christian vs. Matt & Jeff Hardy ladder match from No Mercy

(any of the series of matches btw. Benoit/Saturn and DDP/Bigelow/Kanyon would follow)

 

00: Triple H vs. Cactus Jack streetfight from Royal Rumble

(TLC from Summer Slam is a close second)

 

01: Chris Benoit vs. Steve Austin Smackdown! match from Edmonton

(the one that didn't end with the Montreal Finish)

 

02: The Rock vs. Hulk Hogan from WrestleMania X8

(haven't seen a PPV since KOTR)

[cawthon777 0]

Scorpio/Benoit, Scorpio/Windham, and Vader/Sting all kick the ass of Vader/Flair seven ways to next Saturday.

 

Flair took a decent beating but look at a 53 Inoki taking a REAL beating from Vader on 1/4/96. Look at Vader working state of the art with Takada in UWF-I. Flair was done by 1990.

 

Tim

Scorpio/Windham was better than Flair/Vader? Maybe in Bizarro World.

[cawthon777 0]

that iron man match was good, not great...but my picks.

 

92: tough yeat to pick MOTY so I go with my biased: Wargames 92

93: Sting vs Vader Slamboree

94: Again tough call but I say match of the year was Owen vs Bret. WMX

95: Ladder Match II SS95

96: HBK vs Mankind IYH Mindgames

97: Bret vs Austin WM13

98: Austin vs Foley OTE 98

99: Foley vs The Rock- Last Man Standing.

00: Foley vs HHH- Rumble 00

01: Benoit vs Austin, Smackdown.

02: Benoit vs Angle-Unforgiven.

Sting didn't fight Vader at Slamboree 93. Bulldog did. They did fight at the 94 show in Philadelphia.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Scorpio/Windham was better than Flair/Vader? Maybe in Bizarro World.

Considering that Windham was a better worker than Flair at the time, and Vader didn't know how to work with Flair to save his life, I don't think it's *that* bizarre.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Ricky's right but he has one thing reversed...Flair didn't know how to work with Vader. Flair's style was outdated by 1990 (1985 in Japan). Vader was working state of the art for US while Flair was playing his same old tired game.

 

Watch any Sting v Vader, then watch Vader v Flair.

 

Watch Flair v Vader then watch Windham v Scorpio.

 

It is easy to see which ones are better.

 

Tim

[cawthon777 0]

Ricky's right but he has one thing reversed...Flair didn't know how to work with Vader. Flair's style was outdated by 1990 (1985 in Japan). Vader was working state of the art for US while Flair was playing his same old tired game.

 

Watch any Sting v Vader, then watch Vader v Flair.

 

Watch Flair v Vader then watch Windham v Scorpio.

 

It is easy to see which ones are better.

 

Tim

I've seen more than enough Sting / Vader btw. 92 and 94, being that it's one of the few main events from that period. They're good but one is no better than all the others and you'll never find one mentioned as MOTY.

 

Windham / Scorpio was good for free TV but had about as much excitement to it as Triple H / Bubba Ray from Monday. It was a glorified squash with the NWA Champion against someone who hadn't wrestled a singles match on TV in months.

 

Flair did what he needed to do in that match - sell. He sold Vader's blows like they were death and that was the right thing to do. For Flair to beat the unstoppable Vader, it had to be somewhat of a fluke and that's how it came off on TV.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"I've seen more than enough Sting / Vader btw. 92 and 94, being that it's one of the few main events from that period. They're good but one is no better than all the others and you'll never find one mentioned as MOTY."

 

The 1994 matches suck ass so to speak. Kind of like Flair/Steamboat from 1994, time to move on. As for MOTY, I would say 1992 and 1993 would be good choices for US MOTY but for overall MOTY, of course not. 1992 is 11/26/92 Ozaki/Kansai v Toyota/Yamada and 1993 is Hokuto v Kandori 4/2 or one of the great AJPW mains.

 

"Windham / Scorpio was good for free TV but had about as much excitement to it as Triple H / Bubba Ray from Monday. It was a glorified squash with the NWA Champion against someone who hadn't wrestled a singles match on TV in months."

 

If months is 1 (he faced Benoit in Feb, fought at Slamboree in May, the Windham in June). Not a glorified squash either. A good comparison would be to the Sturuta v Kobashi May 91 match where Jumbo gives Kobashi a lot of offense before putting him away because that is his position. Same as WIndham.

 

"Flair did what he needed to do in that match - sell. He sold Vader's blows like they were death and that was the right thing to do. For Flair to beat the unstoppable Vader, it had to be somewhat of a fluke and that's how it came off on TV."

 

Watch the 12/5/93 Vader v Takada. Watch a 53 Inoki take a beating 10x what Flair took on 1/4/96.

 

Flair took a decent beating but Vader was on such a higher level that the match stood out as nothing.

 

Tim

[cawthon777 0]

"Windham / Scorpio was good for free TV but had about as much excitement to it as Triple H / Bubba Ray from Monday. It was a glorified squash with the NWA Champion against someone who hadn't wrestled a singles match on TV in months."

 

If months is 1 (he faced Benoit in Feb, fought at Slamboree in May, the Windham in June). Not a glorified squash either. A good comparison would be to the Sturuta v Kobashi May 91 match where Jumbo gives Kobashi a lot of offense before putting him away because that is his position. Same as WIndham.

I stand by what I said - Scorpio hadn't wrestled a singles match in months. Benoit was February and that was it. Then he was put in a tag team with Bagwell. Slamboree was Scorpio / Bagwell against Eaton / Benoit.

 

As far as the puro references, I'll bet you $5 you can't win an argument withouth bringing puro into it

[Guest HartFan86]

LKDGJNGOICNKGLh vs. MDV*IHLKGj, 3/3/93. Tokyo Dome. 52,000. Greatest. Match. EVER.

 

Edit: Had to fix the date.

[cawthon777 0]

LKDGJNGOICNKGLh vs. MDV*IHLKGj, 3/3/93. Tokyo Dome. 52,000. Greatest. Match. EVER.

 

Edit: Had to fix the date.

Oh man, that was a great match.

 

Used to have a copy but taped over it with an episode of 'Saved by the Bell'. You know, the episode where Screech was trying to get with Lisa?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Just because Scorpio handn't worked a match in such and such a time makes it a bad match? Where in your arguement can you prove that Scorpio's status with the company affects quality in the slightest?

 

Sting/Vader is my and many other people's pick for US MOTY for '93, and I would say it's significantly better than the '94 encounters. Just as before, if you can prove to me that because they had lots of matches, they're lower in quality, I'll actually consider that as an arguement. Benoit/Scorpio and Windham/Scorpio did everything right that Flair/Vader did and threw in a lot more cool stuff to put them above it in terms of quality.

 

Tim is right about Flair being way out-dated. It never ceases to amaze me that all the pedestrian matches the guy worked in the ninties are still considered classics by virtue of Flair painting by the numbers. If you see his eighties work, it's obvious that he was a shell of his former self. However, I also think Vader was put off by Flair and dumbed down his work to compensate.

 

Just watch Vader/Sting from Superbrawl III and it's obvious that Vader is not only more confortable with Sting but that Sting knows how to play off Vader. Vader gives Sting a huge beating and gives him opportunities to look good at the same time, and Sting uses these opportunities much better than Flair did. Again, I love a great deal of Flair's work, but this is everything I *don't* like about him combined with the awkwardness of clashing with a guy like Vader. This match gest no love from me.

 

*EDIT* Oh God. I really hope your "inside joke" isn't supposed to be funny in the way I think it's supposed to be funny. If so, I would hope you guys would go somewhere else to try and be comical. Jesus.

[Guest bob_barron]

I also give Vader v. Sting MOTY. They played their roles perfectly- Sting knew when to comeback and when to take his beating like a man.

 

I give it ****3/4.

 

I gave their 1994 Slamboree match ***3/4-****.

 

And their Starrcade match was ****1/2 IMO

[cawthon777 0]

They're just different styles. Sting can't work technically like Flair and Flair can't fly like Sting.

 

Sting / Vader are good matches - GAB 92, Starrcade 92, and the title change in Dublin come to mind but there's not much variety from one match to the next. Sting powerslams Vader off the top, Sting misses the Stinger Splash in the corner and hits his head on the post, Sting surprises Vader with the rolling kick thingy. Matter of fact, both Bash 92 and Dublin ended the exact same way. The other title change in London and Starrcade 92 ended the same way too.

[Guest HartFan86]

*EDIT* Oh God. I really hope your "inside joke" isn't supposed to be funny in the way I think it's supposed to be funny. If so, I would hope you guys would go somewhere else to try and be comical. Jesus.

Oh God. I really hope this "inside joke" isn't suppose to be takin seriously because god forbid we wouldn't want to have a little laughing around this place. (And please spare me from the "I'm not laughing" reply cause I've seen that more then too many times).

[cawthon777 0]

*EDIT* Oh God. I really hope your "inside joke" isn't supposed to be funny in the way I think it's supposed to be funny. If so, I would hope you guys would go somewhere else to try and be comical. Jesus.

Dude, what's the joke? I seriously saw this match.

 

Edit: What would you rate it?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Well then, I guess you should try to find something that's actually funny next time? Nothing wrong with laughter, by the way.

 

Yes, many of the Sting/Vader matches were formulatic, but when you're comparing them to '93 Flair, you're going to have to do better than that. There might not be a wrestlers as repetative as Flair was durring that period, and his match with Vader wasn't as good as Sting's because he didn't know how to adjust that to fit monster heels.

 

And while this might not have anything to do with the people in this thread, I'd be interested to hear the opinions of everyone who knocks Michaels/Ramon SS '95 for being "a last minute addition to pop a good buy rate" when Flair/Vader was the same thing.

[Guest HartFan86]

And while this might not have anything to do with the people in this thread, I'd be interested to hear the opinions of everyone who knocks Michaels/Ramon SS '95 for being "a last minute addition to pop a good buy rate" when Flair/Vader was the same thing.

And both finishes were blown...I see where you are coming on this one.

[cawthon777 0]

And while this might not have anything to do with the people in this thread, I'd be interested to hear the opinions of everyone who knocks Michaels/Ramon SS '95 for being "a last minute addition to pop a good buy rate" when Flair/Vader was the same thing.

I actually hated HBK / Razor II.

 

Flair / Vader had suspense behind it. Flair seemed to be going downhill while Vader easily beat everyone. Everyone knew Shawn would win the rematch as payback for WM X.

 

Flair / Vader at the Clash of the Champions a month prior was a good way to start the program. Flair won on DQ even after controversially pinning the champion, at least in the fans' eyes. Even so, Vader dominated most of the match.

 

HBK / Razor at WM X had 7 months of buildup. The rematch had about 3 weeks with one televised altercation.

 

Plus, I was kinda looking forward to HBK vs. Sid - being that Sid wasn't a complete joke at the time and his feud with Shawn from the day after WM was unresolved.

 

Sid / Vader could have possibly been the worst match not only in Starrcade history, but in the history of mankind.

[Guest bob_barron]

Well then, I guess you should try to find something that's actually funny next time? Nothing wrong with laughter, by the way.

 

Yes, many of the Sting/Vader matches were formulatic, but when you're comparing them to '93 Flair, you're going to have to do better than that. There might not be a wrestlers as repetative as Flair was durring that period, and his match with Vader wasn't as good as Sting's because he didn't know how to adjust that to fit monster heels.

 

And while this might not have anything to do with the people in this thread, I'd be interested to hear the opinions of everyone who knocks Michaels/Ramon SS '95 for being "a last minute addition to pop a good buy rate" when Flair/Vader was the same thing.

Well Ricky-

 

WCW HAD to put Flair in cause Sid well you know.

 

WWF realised the card sucked balls and put a ladder match to convince one person to buy the show. Had Sid stabbed someone Mo or Bob Holly and had to be fired- then I don't think people would say the same.

[Guest bob_barron]

And while this might not have anything to do with the people in this thread, I'd be interested to hear the opinions of everyone who knocks Michaels/Ramon SS '95 for being "a last minute addition to pop a good buy rate" when Flair/Vader was the same thing.

I actually hated HBK / Razor II.

 

Flair / Vader had suspense behind it. Flair seemed to be going downhill while Vader easily beat everyone. Everyone knew Shawn would win the rematch as payback for WM X.

 

Flair / Vader at the Clash of the Champions a month prior was a good way to start the program. Flair won on DQ even after controversially pinning the champion, at least in the fans' eyes. Even so, Vader dominated most of the match.

 

HBK / Razor at WM X had 7 months of buildup. The rematch had about 3 weeks with one televised altercation.

 

Plus, I was kinda looking forward to HBK vs. Sid - being that Sid wasn't a complete joke at the time and his feud with Shawn from the day after WM was unresolved.

 

Sid / Vader could have possibly been the worst match not only in Starrcade history, but in the history of mankind.

The weekend before Starrcade WCW put an ad in USA Today advertising Superbrawl IV with Flair v. Vader in the Cage.

 

I was 9 and was like: Wow- Flair must be so confident.

[cawthon777 0]

The weekend before Starrcade WCW put an ad in USA Today advertising Superbrawl IV with Flair v. Vader in the Cage.

 

I was 9 and was like: Wow- Flair must be so confident.

I remember a week or so before the Clash of the Champions with Sting vs. Flair in the unification match (June 94), one of the WCW syndies had Mean Gene in the control center for BATB 94 a little too early.

 

So simply from watching the control center, I knew Cactus & Kevin Sullivan would keep the tag belts, Arn Anderson would agree to be Dustin Rhodes' tag partner against Terry Funk & Bunkhouse Buck, and Flair would beat Sting and meet Hogan at the PPV.

 

I always imagined someone lost their job over that.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I really don't see how people can pimp Flair/Vader like this and then bash Michaels/Ramon. What made Flair/Vader better? And please, chose something more intelligent than "THEY BLEW THE FINISH TO MICHAELS/RAMON THREE TIMES!!!!!" to sway my opinion. The body of Michaels/Ramon is better than anything that happened in Flair/Vader, which was a total pedestrian encounter for Vader and what should have been a wake-up call for Flair.

 

Michaels/Ramon may have been brought in to pop a good rating, but is the match bad based on that virtue alone? From the way some people describe Flair/Vader, you'd think build-up and backstory alone were all that made a match. On the contrary, it's what you do with that story that counts, and Michaels did more with what he had in the ladder match than he's done on many, many other occasions. This is coming from someone who hates a large body of Michaels work that most people can't get enough of, mind you.

 

Flair/Vader, on the other hand, saw Flair do almost nothing but attempt to sell a beating from Vader while looking credible at the same time, something he just couldn't pull off. He shouldn't have been working at that age. Scary to think that people still handed out snow flakes for his matches in '98.