The Great Matches

[Guest RickyChosyu]

***** as well in my book, and the best north american cruiserweight match ever by a longshot.

 

I still think Flair/Steamboat and Bret/Austin SS 96 are both a little better, though. It was mentioned that not every spot hit completely crisply and flowed in Rey/Eddy, well, they did in Bret/Austin. They just didn't do any backflip springboard DDT's or Splash Mountains countered into Ranas (which was contrived).

Not everything was perfect in Bret/Austin. The brawling, at times, was a tad weak. Plus, I felt that Rey/Eddy's notperfectness made it more appealing, as far as how the spots hit. The spots weren't completely crisp, but that made it seem more desperate a fight, without making it sloppy. I agree, the finish was a little contrived, but even with that in mind, I consider it better than Hart/Austin.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

The ending of Rey/Eddy is contrived for the hardcore fans and those looking back now. At the time, the Splash Mountain reversal was still a less used move in the US.

 

What they really needed was a 2/3 falls blow off match.

 

Tim

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Even so, Tim, I don't think anyone had ever succesfully hit that move on Rey in WCW. I'm not sure how many times that finish was used in WCW (I wasn't an avid fan in '97, to be honest) but I think it had been done enough that most guys remembered it and knew what would happen. I remember Konnan pinning Juvi with Splash Mountain once, but otherwise, it was a rather predictable spot.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

It was the finish to the Rey/Psi match from the Bash prior, for one.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Rey never getting hit with the move was more of a "WCW Booking Team Clusterfuck." But I see where you are coming from...I can definetly live with it though.

 

Tim

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Oh, the move was executed flawlessly, and I still consider the match *****, but that contrived finish makes it rank half a hair behind Bret/Austin. That finish hadn't been done on PPV since Bret/Piper WM 8.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Pretty sure you're mixing up the two Hart/Austin matches there. Their SS '96 match lifted the finish from Hart/Piper, but, if I'm not mistaken, we're talking '97 right now. In my opinion, Rey/Eddy was better than both Austin/Hart matches, though. Finishes are important, but even with a finish that was getting predictable, Rey/Eddy goes farther than Hart/Austin because everything they do dead-on, and, to use another cliche, there's no wasted motion. As a previous post said, Eddy made holds that would usually be considered rest holds to tear at the mask, or generally just act like a prick. There was never any dead time, and Eddy managed to look completely dominant but still vulnerable. Hart/Austin, both times, were really great, but they didn't do as many things right as Rey/Eddy did.

[Guest wolverine]

A few quick takes:

 

Regarding Bret-Austin 3/97, I felt the brawling portion of the match was pretty weak myself, with Bret's punches showing far too much light. Then again, Bret's never been that great of a striker - this was especially noticable after watching tons of AJ stuff, to see just how lame his punches were. The blading thing was sloppy as hell and too gimmicky for my tastes. I really couldn't rate this match much higher than ****1/2.

[Guest godthedog]

i say for next week we do benoit/sasuke from the 94 j cup, cause i saw it thursday & want to find out what the hell is so great about it.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Why wait?

 

It has heat, drama, intensity, one of Benoit's best performances ever, and an incredible finishing run. It's also a very fitting end to the tourniment, as Benoit learned from Liger and Sammy's mistakes in dealing with Sasuke; don't give him any lee-way and keep him grounded. Sasuke follows along perfectly, once again, and shows that he may be the most carriable wrestler ever by bumping like a maniac, pulling out his craziest spots, and taking the beating Benoit gave him like a man, even after Liger has given him the beating of all beatings in the semi's. Benoit proved how good he is here by succeeding where Liger failed, and reafirmed his status as the top foreigner in the junior division. This probably wasn't at the levle of Liger/Samurai, Ultimo/Ohtani, and other fantastic junior matches. However, it was still an incredible sprint, and a fitting portrayal of the two men involved.

 

I'd rate it at about ****1/2.

[Guest Dmann2000]

Sadly I haven't seen Benoit vs Sasuke But if enough want to discuss it feel free to

[Guest BAR]

I'll be getting Super J Cup '94 within the next couple of weeks, I can't wait.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Match is fantastic, ***** in my book. Sasuke takes the shitkicking of a lifetime in that tournament, and does so masterfully. IMO, if the finish of the Lyger match went the way it was supposed to, Sasuke would've been in 2 ***** matches on the same show.

[Guest kingkamala]

Don't watch a lot of puro so I can't discuss...damn it I just did

[Guest TheHulkster]

It's a clash of styles that flowed together better than probably any clash of styles you are ever going to see. It was Sasuke's Lucha influenced offense against the more submission and amatuer wrestling style of Benoit. Their different influences flowed together beautifully, with Sasuke using his speed and agility and Benoit using his power and superior mat skills to take command at different points in the match. The near falls came at appropriate times. Like after Benoit hit Sasuke with a springboard clothesline to the outside, Benoit dragged him back in and hit him with the Tiger Suplex, one of his signature moves. Then when he kicked out, he hit him with one of his other signature moves, the Diving Headbutt. Another kick out. Then another one of his signature moves, the foldover powerbomb, and another kick out, and his look of frustration and desperation increases after Sasuke kicks out of each one of his trademark moves. After realizing there is a very slim chance of him pinning Sasuke at this point, he locks in the Sharpshooter. Most importantly, everything in this match makes sense. When Sasuke hit the diving body press after taking a shitkicking from Benoit, he doesn't cover because he knows that his battered body wouldn't be able to make it to his opponent and pin him for a 3 count (I hate that shit in a lot of matches, it takes away the suspense when they are 10 feet away after hitting a big move and they go for the cover), so he continues to fight untill Benoit lands on the outside. This is the perfect time to hit the Space Flying Tiger Drop. When he gets Benoit back in the ring after hitting his big move, he does everything in his power to try to put Benoit away. Sasuke's selling of his beating during this period when he was on offense was off the charts. After suplexing Benoit to the outside, he tries to keep him out there so he can hit him with another damaging high spot, the missile dropkick from the top rope to the floor. Then it's Sasuke's turn to bust out his signature high flying moves to put Benoit away. At this point the crowd is gasping at every 2 and a 1/2 count. Benoit's selling is equally off the charts at this point. Then Sasuke goes up slowly, using all he has left hit one final high flying move and Benoit counters with the finish. Sasuke had taken a far worse beating than Benoit, and he showed it through his selling. Everything in this match flowed beautifully. As you can probably tell, I watched it again just now, and it gets better every time I see it. Thats the mark of a great match. Once in a while, I knit-pick matches saying something could be better or they could've tried something differently, but I can't knit-pick this match. I wouldn't feel right not giving it *****.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

As someone said in another thread, this was the epitome of a classic juniors match. Every theme present in this match represents a different part of junior wrestling, and all of it was played out to perfection.

 

When I first saw it, I thought it was the best Juniors match I would ever see, but now, I know there are still better matches. After seeing more and more quality material, I realized that there are matches significantly better than this, and they're more numerous than anyone would expect. Liger/Samurai from the BOTSJ Finals '92 is amazing, and deffinitely the best I have seen up to this pont, for example. After seeing Liger's performance here, I don't think I can rate Benoit/Sasuke higher than ****1/2-3/4.

[Guest Dmann2000]

Very well those who want to for the week of 9/29-10/05 the match will be:

 

Christ Benoit vs The Great Sasuke, Super J Cup 1994

[Guest wolverine]

I don't "get" the whole Liger-Sasuke J-Cup '94 hype. Considering the matches Liger had earlier in his career (Sano, Samurai) and later on (Ohtani), this match doesn't even close to being a classic or near classic. It kind of reminds me of the Liger-Dragon J-Cup '95 match - a **** match that gets overblown since it has two net fav's in there.

 

Anyway, I think Liger's two best matches are:

 

1. vs. El Samurai 4/30/92

2. vs. Shinjiro Ohtani 3/17/96

 

I would rate them both ****3/4 and they are the two best junior heavyweight bouts I've ever seen.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Agreed on Liger/Sasuke. One of their better matches, but not a classic. Liger's other performances put it to shame.

[Guest XdojimeX]

"Agreed on Liger/Sasuke. One of their better matches, but not a classic. Liger's other performances put it to shame."

 

It's gotten a bit overated over the years (lots of full monty's rolled out) but I have no problem it being called a low-end MOTYC. It's a memorable match on a memorable night of wrestling. What I don't get is nobody ever pimps the July rematch since it's just as good if not better then their J-Cup bout. Did it slip under the radar or something?

[Guest wolverine]

It was a memorable night of wrestling, but I'm of the belief that Kawada vs. Williams was the best match of the night. They were on a different level than everyone else when it comes to making a pro wrestling match great.

And that's no knock at Benoit-Sasuke, since it was a GREAT match, just not great enough.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I would attribute the July match being snubbed due to far more people having access to the J-Cup and since that match gets pimped so much, most people would probably feel that they don't need to track down any more matches between the two. Personally, I remember liking some of their other matches quite a bit.

[Guest Dmann2000]

Just a note I've got some interesting ideas for next week's match. Trying to think of something that people haven't already brought up but is well known enough that most of you guys can throw in your two cents. (I mean I can't speak on Benoit v Sasuke cause I haven't seen it. Though I could talk about Benoit v El Samauri) As always feel free to offer suggestions as the weekend approaches.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

OK. Let's do it...10/4/99. I want people to talk about WHY this is the best damn TV match you'll ever see, and is probably the WCW MOTY for that year, and definitely one of the top 5 when talking about MOTD for WCW.

 

EDIT: For those of you who don't know, I'm talking about the Bret/Benoit Owen Tribute match...

[Guest godthedog]

eh...****, tops. they didn't have any real flow or direction till about ten minutes into it. once it got good, it got GOOD, but...it just took a while for it to get good.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Good match, not the best that year, and deffinately not one of the top matches WCW ever did. I doubt it would break 20.

 

I've said many times before why Benoit/Malenko vs. Raven/Saturn is much better, and I see no reason to change my opinion.

[Guest XdojimeX]

I really liked their two singles in late '98, early '99 when Hart was playing heel to Benoit fiery babyface, always seemed like the first 10-15 minutes of a really great 30 minute match that got cut short (roll in the screwjy). The Owen Tribute was, I dunno...in a vacuum so to speak. The work was very good, and there was a heartfelt subtext to the whole thing. But the environment made it hard to connect to in a way. Way I see it we never really got the great Benoit/Hart match we should have when Bret jumped ship, but this was still special for other obvious reasons.

[Guest Dmann2000]

For the week of 10/06-10/12 I would like to hear discussions on the 1992 Royal Rumble aka My favorite match ever

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Hey, you can discus whatever you want, but I really don't see the point behind discussing that match. It's a battle royal, albiet a very fun, well-booked one, but a batle royal is a battle royal. There's not a whole lot you can say to argue its quality.

[Guest godthedog]

i'm really in no position to discuss the match's merits, as i haven't seen it since i was ten or eleven. that said, i remember buying into everything completely & was absolutely shocked that flair went the distance & won. i didn't like flair at the time, but...i couldn't even boo him for it because it was such an amazing feat, i was just in shock.