5* Matches

[Guest BionicRedneck]

OK,

 

There is an exclusive group of matches that I would give the big ***** to. I was wondering what you people would put as your 5* matches. I know it's probably been done to death but this board is dead, so it should start some conversations etc.

 

I can only think of 7 definates:

 

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada (6/3/94)

Ultimo Dragon vs. Shinjiro Ohtani (J Crown Semis)

Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (WrestleMania X)

Eddie Guerrero vs. Rey Misterio Jr. (Halloween Havoc 97)

Misawa/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue (1996 RWTL Finals)

Chris Benoit vs. Great Sasuke (Super J Cup Finals)

Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (WrestleWar 89)

 

you?

[Guest WrestlingDeacon]

Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham from Worldwide in 1987.

 

Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat best 2 out of 3 falls from the first Clash in '89

 

Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk in an I Quit match from the second Clash in '89

 

Tully Blanchard vs. Magnum TA in an I Quit cage match from Starrcade '85

 

Chris Benoit vs. Kevin Sullivan where they fight into the bathroom

 

'91 and '92 Wargames

 

1992 Royal Rumble

 

Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon ladder match from Wrestlemania X

 

Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart from Summerslam '94 (which I dig much more than their Wrestlemania X match)

 

Bret Hart vs. Davey Boy Smith from Summerslam '92

 

Randy Savage vs. Ricky Steamboat from Wrestlemania III

 

Randy Savage vs. Ultimate Warrior from Wrestlemania VII and Summerslam '92 (and I'm catching flack for those two)

 

Steve Austin vs. Bret Hart from Survivor Series '96

 

The Rockers vs. The Orient Express from Royal Rumble '91

[Guest Midnight Express83]

16: Misawa vs Kawada(6/3/94)

15: Austin vs Bret: WM13

14: Chris Benoit vs Great Sasuke

13: Midnight Express vs Southern Boys: Bash 90

12: Flair vs Funk: I quit match

10: Bret vs Owen at Summerslam 94

9: Razor vs HBK: WM10 ladder match

8: Midnights vs Fantastic: Clash 1

7: HBK vs Marty Jannetty 5/17/93

6: Wargames 92: WrestleWar 92

5: Wargames 87: 07/04/1987

4: Bret Hart vs Owen Hart: WM10

3: Randy Savage vs Ricky Steamboat: WM3

2: Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat: 2/3 clash of Champions

1: Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat: Wrestlewar 89

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I've said this about a million times, and will no doubt say it a million times more, but what the hell does five stars mean anymore? How can a match that has many greater than it be five stars? It's the highest rating, so there really shouldn't be a match like Benoit/Sullivan, which is hardly on levle with a very significant amount of matches I have seen, be listed as five stars? I liked that match a whole lot, but to say that it's five stars says that it's the best wrestling has to offer, and it's not. Same goes for a crap load of the other matches listed.

 

Anyway, here we go:

 

Hart/Hart, Wrestlemania X

Misterio/Guererro, Halloween Havok '97

Ohtani/Samurai, 1/96

Ohtani/Dragon, J*Crown Tourniment

[Guest wolverine]

Ricky, you really, really need to see Aja Kong vs. Manami Toyota 11/20/94. It's far better than every match you listed (it's THAT good). At least that's how I see it.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

Hey wolvie, THANKS FOR TAKING THE ONLY JOSHI MATCH I'VE EVER SEEN TO THE BANK!!!

 

Anyways,

 

Bret/Owen at WM10, their Marathon Match, and their cage match at SS 94

Misawa/Kawada-6/3/94

The Burning vs. The Holy Demon Army-10/15/95

MPro 10-man-10/10/96

Jumbo/Misawa-1990 (unmasking match)

Kobashi/Hansen-1993 (Hansen MAULS Kenta with a Lariat that SILENCES the crowd)

 

And now...I go watch all these matches...thank you.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Ricky, you really, really need to see Aja Kong vs. Manami Toyota 11/20/94. It's far better than every match you listed (it's THAT good). At least that's how I see it.

Yes, I most certainly do. I'll order from Tabe tomorrow, I think.

[Guest The Notorious CRD]

Bret vs. Owen - Wrestlemania X

Flair vs. Steamboat - WrestlerWar '89

Austin vs. Hart - Wrestlemania XIII

Austin vs. Triple H - No Way out '01

Foley vs. Triple H - No Way Out '00

[Guest godthedog]

I've said this about a million times, and will no doubt say it a million times more, but what the hell does five stars mean anymore? How can a match that has many greater than it be five stars? It's the highest rating, so there really shouldn't be a match like Benoit/Sullivan, which is hardly on levle with a very significant amount of matches I have seen, be listed as five stars? I liked that match a whole lot, but to say that it's five stars says that it's the best wrestling has to offer, and it's not. Same goes for a crap load of the other matches listed.

 

i don't think there's anything wrong with that. it all depends on personal standard. i've seen lots of great four star movies, and some i like better than others. i'll pick 'touch of evil' over 'ghost world', but 'ghost world' is still a four star movie. in anyone's standard, 5 stars doesn't necessarily have to be best of the best, just enough to be a great match.

 

and with that, i'll proceed to contradict myself completely by listing less five star matches than anyone else:

 

bret/owen, summerslam 94

hansen/kobashi 93

bret/flair iron man match, boston garden 93

[Guest RickyChosyu]

What's the point of having a rating system where the highest rating doesn't require that the match be the very best? That makes absolutely no sense.

 

Plus, Benoit/Sullivan, while a fun, intense brawl, isn't even **** on a good day. Like I said, I've seen tons and tons that are much better, so what are those? Six star matches? How about seven? Where do you draw the line?

[Guest bob_barron]

Ummm Ricky- isn't it all people's opinions???

 

Here we go-

Magnum v. Tully Starrcade 85

Steamboat v. Savage WM3

Steamboat v. Flair WW89

Steiners v. Sting/Luger Sup1

Royal Rumble 92

WarGames 92

Flair v. Savage WM8

DBS v. Bret Summ92

Bret v. Owen WMX

HBK v. Razor WM X

Foley/Sullivan v. Nastys Slamboree

HBK v. Foley Mind Games

Bret v. Austin SurS96

Bret v. Austin WM13

Hart Foundation v. USA Canadian Stampede

Taker v. HBK HIAC

Foley v. HHH RR00

HHH v. Rock JD00

HHH v. Y2J FL00

TLC 1

HHH v. SCSA NWO01

SCSA v. Rock X-7

TLC 2

Benoit/Y2J v. HHH/Austin RAW

[Guest WrestlingDeacon]

I very much agree with what godthedog said above. Citizen Kane and The Godfather are two of the greatest movies ever made, but they're great for different reasons and do different things. Flair vs. Steamboat and Benoit vs. Sullivan are both ***** in my eyes, but for different reasons.

 

The overall connection? All of the matches I listed made me sit there in awe and totally mark out. For the wrestling, for the storylines, for the entertainment value, they are why I watch wrestling.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

The only matches that I would give *****.

 

Kandori vs. Hokuto 4/2/93-I really need to see more Joshi, since this is better than any Men's match I've seen.

Misawa/Jun vs. Kawada/Taue 12/6/96

Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 12/3/93, 6/9/95

Misawa vs. Kawada 6/3/94

Hansen vs. Kobashi 7/31/93

Misawa vs. Jumbo 9/1/90(in case its the wrong date, the one that JUMBO WINS)

Misawa/Kobashi/Jun vs. Kawada/Taue/Ogawa 7/2/93

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Like I said, you render the rating meaningless when you give it to matches that have numerous superiors. Just because "it made you mark out" doesn't make it the best form of wrestling there is, and that's what five stars should be.

 

and bob, if you list a match as five stars, when it's obviously not as good as, say, half the matches I've ever seen, I'm inclined to think that your opinion needs some justification. If someone were to tell you that Hogan/Bundy was a five star match (and thus, total perfection) simply because it made them "mark out", you would probably feel the same way. It doesn't really matter, since most posting on here don't seem too inclinded to justify their opinions beyond "I just like it" so it's not really a debtable topic.

[Guest wolverine]

For me, it's every match Coffin Surfer listed, plus:

 

-Toyota/Yamada vs. Kansai/Ozaki 11/26/92 (best match I've ever seen)

-Kong vs. Toyota 11/20/94

-Misawa/Akiyama vs. Williams/Ace 6/7/96

-Misawa vs. Kobashi 1/20/97

[Guest godthedog]

after watching it again today, i think i may want to add steamboat & douglas v. hollywood blondes from 93. i was totally blown away by it, & could find nothing wrong with it at all.

[Guest J*ingus]

I've said this about a million times, and will no doubt say it a million times more, but what the hell does five stars mean anymore? How can a match that has many greater than it be five stars? It's the highest rating, so there really shouldn't be a match like Benoit/Sullivan, which is hardly on levle with a very significant amount of matches I have seen, be listed as five stars? I liked that match a whole lot, but to say that it's five stars says that it's the best wrestling has to offer, and it's not. Same goes for a crap load of the other matches listed.

You might've thought that there were many matches superior to Benoit/Sullivan, Ricky, but obviously WrestlingDeacon doesn't agree with you.

 

What's the point of having a rating system where the highest rating doesn't require that the match be the very best? That makes absolutely no sense.

 

You're saying that 5 should only be given to matches that are better than EVERYTHING else? By that logic, there would only be one five-star match in existence, and all others would be below it.

 

Plus, Benoit/Sullivan, while a fun, intense brawl, isn't even **** on a good day. Like I said, I've seen tons and tons that are much better, so what are those? Six star matches? How about seven? Where do you draw the line?

 

But he is not you. He might've liked those matches a lot less. Obviously, he liked Benoit/Sullivan more.

 

Like I said, you render the rating meaningless when you give it to matches that have numerous superiors. Just because "it made you mark out" doesn't make it the best form of wrestling there is, and that's what five stars should be.

 

If they marked out, it meant they enjoyed it. What more can you ask from a medium of entertainment?

 

and bob, if you list a match as five stars, when it's obviously not as good as, say, half the matches I've ever seen, I'm inclined to think that your opinion needs some justification. If someone were to tell you that Hogan/Bundy was a five star match (and thus, total perfection) simply because it made them "mark out", you would probably feel the same way.

 

Why would he feel the same way? It didn't make HIM mark out, it was the other guy.

 

It doesn't really matter, since most posting on here don't seem too inclinded to justify their opinions beyond "I just like it" so it's not really a debtable topic.

 

And some posting on here seem to inclined to overanalyze matches and put more thought into them than was ever intended.

[Guest Retro Rob]

What's the point of having a rating system where the highest rating doesn't require that the match be the very best? That makes absolutely no sense.

I always try to rate matches objectively, but myself aside, when someone with any knowledge of wrestling rates a match at *****, that means that THEY think it was one of the greatest matches ever. Whether or not YOU agree with them is a completely different story.

 

Ricky, here's the thing. EVERYONE, I repeat, EVERYONE has different opinions, thoughts, etc., so there is no correct rating for anything. Life is subjective, that includes practically every facet of life. It's been said NUMEROUS times before, but one person's ***** match is another person's snoozer. That being said, there is a good chance that many people disagree with your choices in the ***** category. Does that mean your opinions are wrong? No. It just proves my original point.

[Guest Incandenza]

Star ratings are arbitrary, and to argue that there be a set standard for them which EVERYONE must obey is ridiculous. What would be the point in having opinions if everyone had to follow the same guidelines?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Star ratings are arbitrary, and to argue that there be a set standard for them which EVERYONE must obey is ridiculous. What would be the point in having opinions if everyone had to follow the same guidelines?

If they're arbitrary, why use them? If no one is using the same rules, why use them? If you don't want to use star ratings at all, I would actually agree with you, because it forces people to actually back up their opinions, but if no one is willing to do that, I'm not really interested, which leads to my gripe about current star ratings.

 

It's disheartening to see people arange posts dedicated to just throwing snow flakes around. Justify your opinions, if that's not too much to ask.

 

I don't believe in this "only you can know why you like a match" balderdash

that clouds this sort of discusion. It's not that hard to watch the match, figuer out why it's good, or bad, and how other matches stack up to it. If you can do that, you can explain to me why Benoit/Sullivan is better than say, Hart/Austin, which was essentially a similiar concept done much better with more time and drama. How did Benoit/Sullivan measure up? I happen to enjoy marking out for matches quite a bit, but I also enjoy looking for the underlying themes in matches, and seeing how everything comes together. Strange that so many of you seem to be totally against this kind of attitude, both in viewing the material and discussing it.

 

Anyway, back to earth, I don't see a point in rating a match five stars if you aren't prepared to explain why. Now, I could listen to Jingus, and just assume that you can't possibly explain it to me, but then what good is this topic? What, are we supposed to just throw out matches we like every so often? Is that the concept? If so, count me out. Yeesh.

[Guest Incandenza]

If they're arbitrary, why use them? If no one is using the same rules, why use them? If you don't want to use star ratings at all, I would actually agree with you, because it forces people to actually back up their opinions, but if no one is willing to do that, I'm not really interested, which leads to my gripe about current star ratings.

 

We're kinda seeing eye-to-eye here. There is no point to star ratings other than quickly, and with little justification, telling other people what you thought about a particular match, movie, album, etc. (what you're rating is interchangable, but the point remains the same). I agree that why you like/dislike so-and-so should be backed up in a discussion--a simple "just 'cuz" doesn't cut it, as far as I'm concerned--but if you can do so, there's no reason for star ratings at all.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I see them as a tool that helps people classify them relative to each other, and they're good for bringing people into discussion, but beyond that, I would rather leave them out, if possible.

[Guest WrestlingDeacon]

Ok, fine, although no one asked, why I like Benoit vs Sullivan:

 

The backstory was quite interesting. Sullivan decided to book himself into a feud with Benoit and to add spice to it, he decided to book it that Benoit was having an affair with his wife Nancy in that very sort of wink wink nudge nudge style for the smart marks that is common place today, but not at that time. In fact, I believe that Sullivan was the first booker to really book in that manner. However, Sullivan was really old school and he was all about "living the gimmick" and made Chris and Nancy travel together and put on the airs that they really were having an affair and it actually did leave to them having an affair, the Sullivan's eventual divorce and Chris and Nancy eventually getting married. Essentially it was a work that was supposed to look like a shoot that became a shoot. The line was so blurry and that really made for a very heated and intense feud between the two men. Along with a very complex and involved storyline. I would actually rank this angle and feud one of the best of all time just for those shades of gray involved with it.

 

Now while ECW was just coming into their own with the chaotic brawls of the nature their blow off match was, I can't say that I saw much ECW at that time, nor did most ECW brawls have the type of backstory that this encounter had. Sullivan was also one of the first bookers who booked hardcore brawls and while his attempts had been somewhat humorous in the past (Sullivan vs. Norman for instance), the chemistry of the two men and stiffness of the shots sapped the comedy that could be seen in two guys duking it out in the bathroom and instead replaced it with the sense that this was a real crazed fight. In a real fight, if you're sticking and moving for position and strategy, it doesn't matter if you wind up in the bathroom or what. I also distinctly remember seeing the welts pop up on Benoit's face from the shots he took with the stall door and thinking "Good God, these guys are insane." That concept was hammered home even more later when Benoit took the header down the stairs and Sullivan was superplexed off the table set up on the top rope for the pin.

 

Now while the action in an of itself might not be spectacular and can be easily regimented out into four distinct segments (opening, brawl to bathroom, brawl back down the stairs, finish) it was the creativity shown in the booking of these segments and the treating of them with seriousness and stiff shots that made them come off. It's actually very hard to describe the match and make one see the genius of it, because of the miscellaneous subtlties involved in the application. Just relating the action cannot do the battle justice. The finish is also very satisfying as not only does Benoit go over, but Arn Anderson turns on Sullivan to go with Benoit and resolidfy the 4 Horsemen. Despite all of the bad blood between the two men, a proper and satisfying resolution was still reached and the two grapplers were still cooperating with each other. Somehow they struck a balance between themselves, putting aside their own personal hatred to reach the proper conclusion, but using that emotion to fuel the fire of the match.

 

All in all, I rank this as a five star match for the backstory, the creativity of the spots at the time, the proper booking in the finish to put Benoit over, the intensity and stiffness of the shots and historical significance of being one of the first hardcore brawls and smarkish storylines to play out on a mainstream wrestling stage.

 

I ask you Ricky, to explain why you do not like it.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Chris Benoit vs. Kevin Sullivan where they fight into the bathroom

 

Which one? Didn't this happen twice?? I'm assuming you meant the Great American Bash '96 one.

 

I just can't bring myself to rank the HBK/Razor ladder match from Mania X 5* some of the spots were iffy to me. But I still mark out like crazy for the ending. I've never laughed so hard as I did seeing HBK get himself caught in the ropes over and over.

[Guest WrestlingDeacon]

Yes, as you can by the above, GAB '96 is the one I meant. I just forgot it at the time I made the original list. I believe they had one other televised match on a clash, but that might have been it outside of house shows. I do remember Benoit showing up for WWIII that year with his face almost swollen shut from what was said to be a house show match with Sullivan the night before, with Kevin not looking that fresh either.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Not rating a match five stars and flat out disliking it are quite different statements, wouldn't you agree? I never said I didn't like the match. Actually, I remember enjoying it quite a bit.

 

First off, the match wasn't revolutionary, by any means. Sullivan had been booking this kind of thing since '89, to various degrees of success. The "worked shoot" thing had been done literally weeks before, with Brian Pillman, which also lead to lots of brawls that Sullivan loved doing so much. They executed it better than anyone had before at GAB '96, but even so, the booking style was flawed to begin with. Too short to really build up the drama, too many goofy ball shots to keep the hatred alive, and often low points durring the brawling sessions when neither guy was really doing anything. Stiffness alone doesn't make a brawl great, and once the brawling was over, the finish came way too quickly to be dramatic.

 

Fun, fun match with good stiffness, innovative spots, and some definite moments of pure hatred, but not enough to keep it together and moving in the right directions.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Here's a list of matches I have seen enough times and definitely know for a fact I would give *****, and would have to be greatly convinced to think otherwise.

 

Hart/Austin SS96

Hart/Austin WM13

Misawa/Kawada 6/3/94

Misawa/Kobashi 1/20/97

Flair/Steamboat Wrestlewar 89

Bret/Owen WM 10

Bret/Bulldog 92 Summerslam

92 Royal Rumble (Great pacing, drama, booking, and a phenomenal Flair performance)

Benoit/Sasuke 94 Super-J cup Finals

Pillman/Lyger Superbrawl 2

Michaels/Jarrett IYH 2 (perfect blend of old southern wrestling with new sports entertainment. Great effort from both men, everything hit crisp, the right person went over, and a scalding hot crowd.)

Bret/Flair Ironman Match

Eddy/Rey 97 Halloween Havoc

Tiger Mask/Dynamite Kid. (wish I knew the date..It was in Japan and Sayama won by dropping Dyno on his head from an almost sideways tombstone position. If you've seen it, you probably know what I'm talking about.)

 

I think that just about covers it as far as matches I've seen enough times to make that judgment with. I still need more Jumbo and Joshi, however.

[Guest Goodear]

Hey Ricky,

 

I pretty much agree with you that people throw the snowflakes around wayyyy too much. There's a handful of 5* matches ever where you can look at them and say, "okay, nothing blown, psychology was perfect, etc. etc." Hell, I might even be more stringent than you are.

 

Anyway, brawls like Benoit-Sullivan don't generally lead to high star rankings due to the nature of "I hit you, you hit me harder. Wash ... rinse ... repeat". The best brawl I've seen was Cactus-Sullivan vs. Nasty Boys at Slamboree '94 (?) and I'd go to **** for it.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Sullivan had been doing shooty type gimmicks, interviews, and booking since the early 80's...nothing revolutionary there.

 

As for the story, it was a simple wrestling feud.

 

I didn't see anything innovatoive in terms of stiffness, storytelling, psych, etc.

 

That said, Benoit carried him very well...too bad he was the reason that the Radicals got the hell out of WCW.

 

Tim

[Guest bob_barron]

All the matches I listed as ***** are matches that were perfect in my eyes. I mean those are matches I can watch over and over and just keep getting into because of their sheer awesomeness.

 

I mean Ricky- you may not think Benoit v. Sullivan was 5* but Deacon does and that's his opinion.

 

And Bionic just asked us to list them not to list why. If you wanna start a thread where we list why then that's cool with me- I'll probably post in it.