5* Matches

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Yes, it's a total shame to see someone like Ohtani, who's selling was often times brilliant, take part in a stupid no-selling contest like that. What a joke. Then there was Ultimo blowing spots, and the general disjointed feel of the match that made it seem like they were just picking the spots at random. It seemed like they were trying to build to something good, but did they ever screw it up. '96 is way better.

 

I agree, '96 does have the obligatory "pointless junior matwork" buts done very well and the match still holds ground as one my favorite junior matches. Great, great stuff.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Don't ask me why, cos I really don't know, but the 2 NO SOLD TOMBSTONES OF DEATH thing really entertained me. It may have made no sense whatsoever, but the casual way with which they both no sold each others tombstones like they didn't want to show weakness was really... I dunno... cool.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

The finish of the match RIGHT BEFORE Ohtani/Dragon was a second rope Tombstone, and somehow they can each no-sell three regular versions? Lets not forget that right afterwards they went back to selling leg lariats and suplexes for near falls. I mean, seriously, I have to wonder if an impresionable Koji Kanemoto saw that match and said "That's what I'm gonna do!!!", because that was just blatant no-selling for no purpose but to make each guy look "cool." Like I said, I expect much more out of two guys who are usually fantastic in their selling.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Agent of Oblivion, the match you are talking about with the crazy tombstone and the moonsault ending is from August 5, 1982.

I'm considering mailing you a dollar.

 

I've been looking for the date to that bastard for EVER.

 

The ultimo/ohtani SJ 95 match also had the sky twister press that missed by a mile. The tombstone spot was unbelievably retarded as well, IMO.

[Guest goodhelmet]

i have to agree with the AoO and RC. The '95 match wasn't even in the same boat as the 96 J-Crown match. In fact, when making juniors comps, I don't even bother wasting space with the '95 match becasue of the aforementioned reasons.

 

As for '96, from an execution standpoint, it was nearly flawless. every single move connected and the emotion of otani really sold the match to me. the story rules. if i am not mistaken, i think otani's father was in the audience. it almost appears if otani is seeking the approval of his father and just comes up short... TRAGEDY! add the jacked-up crowd into the equation and you have my favorite juniors match of all-time.

[Guest wolverine]

Ultimo-Ohtani 8/96 is a tremendous match, but I wouldn't call it a classic. I like the stories of Liger-Sammy (4/92), Liger-Ohtani (3/96) and Rey-Eddy (10/97) a lot more.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

For me, it's every match Coffin Surfer listed, plus:

 

-Misawa/Akiyama vs. Williams/Ace 6/7/96

I have yet to see that match unclipped, but it did look damn good. Any idea where to find an unclipped one, Jeff Lynch doesn't even have one.

 

I also have never seen the 93 six man tag unclipped, so I really can't fairly rate it at *****, though from what I've seen and judging from it's reputation I think it earns it.

[Guest wolverine]

Misawa/Akiyama vs. Williams/Ace is only available clipped. But I felt the performance was so incredible, with the storyline being as rich as ever with Misawa having to save Jun's ass every step of the way being strong enough to warrant *****.

 

As far as the 6-man, I always thought it was complete on TV. There's a commercial break in the match, but it resumes right where it left off.

[Guest goodhelmet]

i don't think you can ever call a clipped match *****... ever! there are too many possibilities that you did not see that could prevent you from accurately rating the match. how do you know there wasn't some horrible mistimed spot that went wrong? how do you know they didn't edit out a ten minute headlock? you don't. if a match is going to get ***** then at least see the entire match.

[Guest wolverine]

Thanks for the tip, but I don't give a shit. Go watch the match....or something.

[Guest redbaron51]

*****

 

 

Rey vs Psycosis (some ECW event)

Rey vs Eddy Guerrero (Havoc 97)

Austin vs Steamboat (WCW 91)

Flair vs Steamboat (2/3 Falls)

Austin vs Angle (2001 summerslam)

Angle vs Benoit (last WWE PPV)

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Are we talking 7/2/93 Misawa/Kobashi/Akiyama v Kawada/TAue/Ogawa? That match is complete.

 

As for ***** having to be seen completly, if you know what your talking about and understand the basis of where the match is coming from, there is a ton of validity for calling clipped matches *****.

 

Tim

[Guest goodhelmet]

Thanks for the tip, but I don't give a shit. Go watch the match....or something.

hey i would go watch the match and have no problem giving it ***** .... if it was in complete form!!! but it's not and until the ENTIRE match becomes available we will never know.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

So the damn 93 six man tag is in complete form. Damn, I got scamed than. Back when I first got into puro and older matches before I even knew about these boards, I bought some dubs from a dealer who I can't even find on the net anymore. The begining of the match is cutoff, and I just assumed that all of them were JIP, so I never risked dishing out the cash for another one. The Flair/Funk I bought from him, also cutoff the ending of the match and Flair/Steamboat Wrestlewar 89 was also clipped in the middle but I did get them two in complete form. And needless to say i didn't buy anything from him after that.

 

And I think you can rate a clipped match *****.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Yea, the 7/2/93 is complete on TV. Starts with Akiyama and Ogawa running through a Juniors like sequence and continues its greatness for 25 mins

 

TIm

[Guest goodhelmet]

ok, this disturbs me a little. how can a clipped match or jip match be considered *****? explain.

 

to me, if you don't see the entire match then you don't see the total picture. compare it to led zeppelin's "stairway to heaven". you hate the entire slow portion of the song but love the fast ending. well, if you only heard the ending then you would be inclined to think it was a great song... until you heard the horrible body of the song. that would change your perception completely. now, maybe you feel a jip or clip is a ***** clip. i might be able to agree with that but you can't judge the ENTIRE match. you are only hearing half the song, so to speak.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

How about this?

 

I will name a few matches that I have rated very highly that are ***** yet are JIP or slightly clipped.

 

 

Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi v Tsuruta/Taue/Fuchi (4/20/91)

Can Am Express v Kobashi/Kikuchi (5/25/92)

Liger v Otani (3/17/96)

Williams/Ace v Misawa/Akiyama (6/7/96)

 

All of these matches are either JIP or clipped a little bit.

 

For the first match, they did the match a thousand times. You know the basic formula and what they are doing when it is clipped. The same can be said for the Liger/Otani match as all Junior matches are basically the same. Couple of highspots, back down to the mat, then take it home for 5-8 minutes.

 

For the Can Am match, all I need to see for 5 stars is the last 12 minutes. I would *love* to see the first part but it has no realistic outcome on the final 12 minutes. It is kind of like 12/6/96 Misawa/Akiyama v Kawada/Taue. The first 17 minutes are perfectly acceptable and good wrestling. But the last 15 minutes are where the GOLD lies. The past couple of times I have watched the match, I have started at the 17:00 mark and been perfectly fine and content with keeping the rating at *****. If in fact I never saw the first 17 minutes, I would be curious, but it would not deter me from seeing the absolute greatness that is the final 17:00.

 

Tim

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

As far as *****'s go, I'd just have to give it to the ebst match I've seen, even though I didn't think it was perfect but SOMETHING has to be *****, right? Benoit/Sasuke from J Cup '94 is the match I have to pick, methinks. Very good, no blown spots, good psych and near-falls galore. I like everything about that match. As for ****3/4 start matches I have:

 

Misawa/Kobashi 30-minute draw 4/97. The only thing that stops this match from being perfect is that I think the 30 minute stipulation wasn't really played into the psychology. To me it seemed like they were just wrestling a regular match and didn't even consider the amount of time they had. To pacing through the match would have been just right had the match ended in a pinfall, but they didn't speed up or get desperate towrds the end, which just kind of bugged me a big. Still I think the wrestling itself was flawless, and the story otherwise was pretty good.

Liger/Sasuke: The thing about this match is, it would have not been ***** if they had corrected the mistake Sasuke made. Sasuke's mistake was what both completely made the story of the match to where it could have been perfect, but it's still a mistake and a match with a blown spot can't be *****'s. If Sasuke hadn't blown the spot, the match would have ended in a fluke victory and would have been kind of so-so. Sasuke slipping and Liger making fun of him, getting cocky because of the beatdown had been laying in (which causes him to lose the match) really told the story better than what they were planning. Sad!

 

That's about it for me. I have all the really great American matches rated just below those two-mostly because I just recently got into it and haven't seen any of the really great matches. The only Flair/Steamboat I've seen was the Chi-Town Rumble (****1/2). So don't peg me as being the type who is elistist when the truth is I have barley seen any wrestling at all outside of what I get on free TV.

 

Anyway, I know my list of matches probably is pretty obsolete to some of our more prolific wrestling viewers but hey I got to stick with what I know.

[Guest Retro Rob]

I agree with GH. Any match not in it's entirety cannot be considered ***** because you don't know what you missed. I'm very picky with my ratings. For example, a match under 10 minutes long will never get ****+ from me. A match under 15 will never get *****. I'm more selective than people think.

[Guest bob_barron]

I agree with RR and GH- I don't think I've ever given a clipped match 5*.

 

But match time doesn't matter too much to me-look at Owen v. Kid from KOTR94

[Guest Retro Rob]

I never saw the Owen-Kid match, BUT there are exceptions to every rule, so who knows.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"A match under 15 will never get *****. I'm more selective than people think."

 

Then what do you rate the following (all under 15)

 

MX v Fantastics (Clash I)

any of the Tamura v Han matches (at least one was under 15)

Eddy v Rey Jr (Halloween Havoc 97)

Ultimo Dragon v Rey Jr (World War III 1996)

 

I may not rate ALL of those *****, but I have seen all of those matches rated ***** by some people.

 

Your logic is flawed if you think match time has anything to do with the actual quality.

 

Tim

[Guest bob_barron]

I give MX v. Fantastics ****1/2

[Guest Retro Rob]

Then what do you rate the following (all under 15)

 

MX v Fantastics (Clash I)

any of the Tamura v Han matches (at least one was under 15)

Eddy v Rey Jr (Halloween Havoc 97)

Ultimo Dragon v Rey Jr (World War III 1996)

 

I may not rate ALL of those *****, but I have seen all of those matches rated ***** by some people.

 

MX-Fantastics was either ****1/4 - ****3/4. I forget the exact rating.

Tamura-Han...I don't really watch puro.

Eddy-Rey I only saw once as a MPEG file, so I can't really rate it.

Dragon-Rey, never saw it.

 

Quite frankly I could care less what other people rated the matches. I don't see how that ties into my rating.

 

Your logic is flawed if you think match time has anything to do with the actual quality.

 

I don't see how my logic is flawed. I just don't like short matches, therefore why would I rate them as highly as those who doesn't mind short matches? It's a matter of personal preference. As for your logic, are you saying that a non-stop action, mind-blowing, 3 minute match should be rated ****+? Time does influence quality. If a match isn't given enough time to tell a story, the quality will be affected. That is primarily the reason why TV matches are generally not as good as PPV matches. They aren't given the same amount of time.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"Quite frankly I could care less what other people rated the matches. I don't see how that ties into my rating"

 

So you mean you have *zero* influences into how you rate each match you see? That is pretty amazing...

 

"I don't see how my logic is flawed. I just don't like short matches, therefore why would I rate them as highly as those who doesn't mind short matches?"

 

But if a short match is quality, it is still not good. That is as absurd as someone saying just because it takes place in the WWE doesn't mean it sucks. A good match is a good match.

 

"It's a matter of personal preference."

 

Agreed.

 

"As for your logic, are you saying that a non-stop action, mind-blowing, 3 minute match should be rated ****+?"

 

Of course not. But length doesn't mean the match is good. Look at some Iron Man matches. Hart/Michaels, Rock/HHH...neither one of those needed 60 mins and it really showed. I have seen 2 great workers be given 30 minutes and totally fucking it up while two decent workers took 15 and ruled the world.

 

"Time does influence quality. If a match isn't given enough time to tell a story, the quality will be affected."

 

Agreed. The same can be said for longer matches having too much time and too much bullshit happening. I wouldn't encourage short matches to be given high ratings but I would rather see time used well than just having time for the sake of time.

 

"That is primarily the reason why TV matches are generally not as good as PPV matches. They aren't given the same amount of time."

 

I'm not even referring to Weeeeeeeeeee TV matches. They suck for the most part and aren't even worthy of rating.

 

You said earlier that you were a selective rater. If a match unfolds in under 15:00 and gets everything done and then some (like MX/Fans from Clash I which is better than any tag match the WWE has produced even with the 11 minute time), it won't get the rating it deserves.

 

Tim

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Rob, setting a flat standard of "under fifteen never gets *****" is really silly, as there have been numerous matches that have been around 12-13 minutes and accomplished the feet of *****.

 

Personally, I take every match on a case by case basis. Some workers need more time to develope a story, some work better with less. It all depends on the wrestlers in the ring and what they try to acomplish. If a match needs more time to develope, it's easy to see, and if it went too long, that too is easy to see. I've seen some people say that Rey/Eddy needed another few minutes to fully develope what they were going for, but I think the time it was given was perfect, and I would rate it ***** regardless of it being under fifteen. The time given was perfect for what they were going for, and it managed to beat any Junior match I've seen in the ninties, including some that went twenty minutes or more.