Why 6/3/94 is the greatest match ever...

[Guest TheHulkster]

When I first seen it not to long ago, I really enjoyed it, but then again, I had seen a good deal of All Japan before I started watching it. Some people don't really understand why everything happens in a wrestling match. There is nothing wrong with that. I've been watching it my entire life, but things didn't really click for me untill a few years ago. Now I can enjoy a good Toryumon match or an insane brawl from Puerto Rico all the same. I think it comes when you bridge that gap to understanding ring psychology and when you realize that it's a whole lot more than beating on a guy's arm for 15 minutes untill he cries uncle.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

I think it comes when you bridge that gap to understanding ring psychology and when you realize that it's a whole lot more than beating on a guy's arm for 15 minutes untill he cries uncle.

Very much agreeded. Limb working is probably the most primitive of wrestling psychology. That's how Ric Flair carried those broom sticks.

[Guest godthedog]

Just curious: did any of you actually see the buildup to 6/3/94 before the match?  It seems like everyone's story is one of "I saw it, wasn't terribly impressed, but then a year later after I knew the backstory I saw it again and was blown away".

i read the rant that baisden did & watched the match and, although i noticed things that baisden pointed out, i couldn't stand up in my seat and go "holy shit! that makes sense!" i could go "okay, so that's why he did that," and could appreciate it on some kind of abstract level, but i couldn't really FEEL the effect of it. i don't think you could really feel through the story they were telling unless you actually SAW the buildup and wasn't just told about it. appreciating a match because of things other people point out to you is brainless and sterile, which is why i don't consider it a 5 star match.

 

and i haven't heard anyone say hansen/kobashi wasn't 5 stars, so that might be a good foundation to build on.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

1) You can't call an opinion ignorant because it is just that, an opinion. Sure you could disagree with it, but you can't really rate an opinion.

 

2) Who are you to say that his opinion SHOULD be retracted? The fact of the matter is, most people who watch the match in question, DO NOT know of the backstory, so it is good to hear what a non-Puro fan thinks of it. Reason being, I'm not a big Pruo fan, so I would like to know what someone like me thinks of the match because that is probably how I will look at it.

Who are you to tell me that I can't say that his opinion should be retracted? It's my opinion, right? Or is everything in this world suddenly an opinion, and thus, sacred?

 

You're not making any sense, by the way. If I'm saying what I'm saying, it's implied that not only is what I say my opinion, but a disagreement with his. I don't feel I need to spell it out, since he seems to have gotten the point. I explained why it was unfair of him to say what he did. No need to complicate things beyond that.

 

This is a message board. For opinions on wrestling. If you want to state the obvious and confirm that, yes, everything here is based on opinion, knock yourself out.

[Guest Dmann2000]

Yeah. See, a lot of the matches people think are FUCKING GREAT are that great because they know the backstory. If you know the backstory to this match, and then you watch the match, you will go fucking crazy. I swear. That's what I'm trying to say.

Sort of like how Cactus vs HHH at the Rumble is better if you know that Hunter and Jack have had a slow burning fued since 97, leading up to the stakes being so high with the WWF title on the line

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Here is what to get:

 

Bobbarnett.com

 

Get the 4 vol Choshu's Army Invades AJPW

Do a test against NWA/WWF stuff from the same era to see the state of the art wrestling occuring in AJPW.

 

Then get K 88-90 and 94-98 to see the 88 RWTL and the two best matches from the Jumbo/Tenyru feud (the precursor to Misawa/Kawada)

 

Next, get Lynch to make you a Custom with the best from the Jumbo v Misawa and Co feud. Both Misawa v Jumbo singles matches, Jumbo v Kawada 10/24/91, Jumbo v Kobashi 5/91, and the best 6 man's.

 

Next, get every TV block from 1993 and you will be all set for the fantastic ride that is 6/3/94.

 

Tim

[Guest J*ingus]

And how much does that all cost, and how long does it take to watch it all?

[Guest Midnight Express83]

I seen the match, its good. I could careless about the backstory. I watch matches as Standlones. If a match is great. I rate it as such. I do it this way to be fair. Because that bridges that gap between the Lucha, NA, and Puro styles. This way I can lump, Misawa/Kawada, Flair/Steamboat, Benoit/Sullivan, Wargames 87, HBK/Razor all together and call them ***** because as a match on its own, its just that good. I am not going to watch 4 years of backstory of four feds to understand why one match is good. I am just going to watch it because people say it is good. I saw it, it was good and thats why I like it. Because it was good and just about flawless.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Man... that's got to be at LEAST $200 worth of stuff. I like puro and all, but fuck that. I may sound ignorant and all, but that's WAY too much money and time to invest just to understand one match when I have a job, school, and a semi-active social life. Maybe I'd do it after I get out of school and land a job that pays well enough to afford the $200+ my bank account would take, but right now? Fwah. I'll just stay a simple-minded NA fan.

[Guest godthedog]

I seen the match, its good. I could careless about the backstory. I watch matches as Standlones. If a match is great. I rate it as such. I do it this way to be fair. Because that bridges that gap between the Lucha, NA, and Puro styles. This way I can lump, Misawa/Kawada, Flair/Steamboat, Benoit/Sullivan, Wargames 87, HBK/Razor all together and call them ***** because as a match on its own, its just that good. I am not going to watch 4 years of backstory of four feds to understand why one match is good. I am just going to watch it because people say it is good. I saw it, it was good and thats why I like it. Because it was good and just about flawless.

although the stand-alone thing is practical for you, it isn't necessarily fair. to understand why a wrestler is doing what he's doing is part of the appreciation of a match, and many times a wrestler will be doing it because of a previous match. steamboat works flair's arm at wrestlewar to set up the chicken wing because flair had submitted to it at the 2/3 falls match; this makes the match a lot deeper and increases its greatness, as compared to if steamboat just arbitrarily picked a body part (which, if you hadn't seen the 2/3 falls match and didn't hear the commentary, is what you would think). it's one thing to throw your arms up and say "shit, misawa/kawada has waaaaaaaay too much backstory and i'm just not going to bother with it," and it's a whole other thing to disregard backstory altogether and say it doesn't matter at all.

 

all major federation matches have some kind of backstory, there are no 'stand alone' matches. everytime benoit tries to go for the crossface he's using backstory because he's going on the assumption that the audience has seen his matches before and know that the crossface is his finisher. if you've never seen benoit before you wouldn't feel that same kind of tension, cause it would just look like he was going for an armbar. every time the rock gets in that rock bottom-ready stance when he's waiting for his opponent to get up, he's using backstory. to say this has no bearing on how good a good a match is, is just ignorant.

[Guest Incandenza]

So, from what I gather here, if you're not willing to spend an assload of cash, you should just shut your mouth and not call 6/3/94 anything other than great.

[Guest Retro Rob]

1) You can't call an opinion ignorant because it is just that, an opinion.  Sure you could disagree with it, but you can't really rate an opinion.

 

2) Who are you to say that his opinion SHOULD be retracted?  The fact of the matter is, most people who watch the match in question, DO NOT know of the backstory, so it is good to hear what a non-Puro fan thinks of it.  Reason being, I'm not a big Pruo fan, so I would like to know what someone like me thinks of the match because that is probably how I will look at it.

Who are you to tell me that I can't say that his opinion should be retracted? It's my opinion, right? Or is everything in this world suddenly an opinion, and thus, sacred?

 

You're not making any sense, by the way. If I'm saying what I'm saying, it's implied that not only is what I say my opinion, but a disagreement with his. I don't feel I need to spell it out, since he seems to have gotten the point. I explained why it was unfair of him to say what he did. No need to complicate things beyond that.

 

This is a message board. For opinions on wrestling. If you want to state the obvious and confirm that, yes, everything here is based on opinion, knock yourself out.

I never said that YOU couldn't say that he should retract his opinion. You COULD say whatever the hell you want, but telling someone flat out to retract something they said is ridiculous.

 

Also, everything in the world is not an opinion. Ricky, you're a bright guy. I figured you could distinguish between fact and opinion. You seem to also have a problem doing this while describing the true prupose of star ratings. Judging by your posts in that thread, you want to take all the opinion out of the rating, thus making them facts that no one can disagree with.

 

Futhermore, it is not UNFAIR of a person to give their thoughts on something. For example, if I never watched wrestling in my life and thought that the 6/3/94 match was great, would you still want me to retract that statement since I am not properly educated on the storyline leading up to it?

 

In conclusion, I have seen you argue with several people about different matches in the past. Your biggest problem is that you can not accept the fact that people may think differently about a match or show than you do. And once you see an opinion different then your own, you will either insult the person's intelligence or start a DRAWN OUT war about the said rating. If you don't remember that ever happening, take a look at the old HIAC thread.

 

Seriously, lighten up. We are talking about fucking star ratings. I can see someone getting this excited over abortion, but not a wrestling match.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

As Tim pointed out, watching 6/3/94 as a stand alone is like tuning into the Supranos in the middle of Season 4 and complaining that you don't care about what's happening to any of the characters. Now, you may not care enough or have the money to buy the first three seasons of the Supranos on DVD, but if you were to knock the show based on that one episode alone that you didn't understand, you would be making a huge oversight, simply because you don't know the full story. This is no different.

 

Rob, I have no problem distinguishing between fact and fiction. I merely get annoyed when people fail to see that everything I talk about on these boards is (mostly) my opinions, and that when I state something like "what you said was ignorant, and should be retracted" I'm assuming that people will take it as such. I wasn't telling him to do anything.

 

Trying to take all opinion out of star ratings? How? By telling people to back up what they say? Isn't that getting people to express their opinions? As I've said before, a simple star rating by itself is pointless, and when I ask people to tell me why they think what they think, I'm asking them for opinions, not facts. Your logic is just all over the place here.

[Guest Retro Rob]

Trying to take all opinion out of star ratings? How? By telling people to back up what they say? Isn't that getting people to express their opinions? As I've said before, a simple star rating by itself is pointless, and when I ask people to tell me why they think what they think, I'm asking them for opinions, not facts. Your logic is just all over the place here.

I wasn't talking about backing up star ratings, I was thinking more along the lines of when you said there should be a set-standard for rating matches. If there are strict guidelines that everyone most follow, that would take the opinion of the ratings because there is no room for personal preferences. What is the point of star ratings if everyone is forced to chose the same rating? THAT is what I was talking about.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Well, I think you need to somewhat understand the backstory of any great match, since all great matches build off previous matches. Some matches can stand on their own very well, but most All Japan matches build off previous matches. And most great American matches do as well, like Bret/Owen, and Steamboat/Flair.

 

There are only really four main matches you have to see to understand 6/3/94. It's not the whole story by any means, but it's the important parts of it.

 

Jumbo vs. Misawa 9/1/90

Jumbo vs. Kawada 10/24/91

Misawa vs. Kawada 3/27/93

Misawa/Kobash vs. Kawada/Taue 12/3/93

 

The story is basically this, if I get anything wrong somebody who knows more please correct me: Misawa and Kawada were two young rising stars who were destined for greatness. However Jumbo was still "The Man" and wasn't about to step aside for no one.

 

Eventually Jumbo retired, and now former partners Misawa and Kawada were left to scramble for his place at the top of the mountain. Though Misawa was clearly the number man, since he had like a two year reign as the Triple Crown Champion, and has a submission(in a tag match) and pinfall victory over Jumbo, and Kawada has never pinned Misawa in any way shape or form. However Misawa would have to forfiet several matches at the Champions Carnival due to a shoulder injury, allowing Kawada and Steve Williams to finish way ahead of him. Kawada would go on to defeat Dr. Death to win the Champions Carnival.

 

With the momentum finally going his way, Kawada was finally ready to take on Misawa and defeat him. Kawada knows every single one of Misawa's tricks and wants more than a pin, he wants to completely destroy Misawa for years of humilating loses.

 

Edited due to me somehow confusing the Carny with the Triple Crown. WTF was I smoking?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Rob, if no one is using the same system, why have a system? Is there really a point to it? That defeats the entire purpose of having a rating system to begin with. No logic there at all.

 

A rating sytem exists solely to help reference the match to people who haven't seen it, in terms of quality. When you look in the paper and see a movie review, usually the star rating is a reflection of how good the movie was, on a general scale compared to other movies. It's all based on what the reviewer thought, but generally speaking, a four star movie is better than a three and a half star movie, and so on. The readers read the review, read the reviewer's thoughts on the movie, and then check the star rating to see what the overall opinion of the movie was. All the while, the assumption is that four stars is the very best, and so on down the scale, regardless of who gave it the rating. That's the whole point.

 

If you're going to use the rating, use a rating that makes sense in the scheme of things, and explain why. Not too much to ask there, and a hell of a lot more logical than "this made me mark out, so it's *****." Logic is the key word here.

[Guest Retro Rob]

I've seen many movie reviews where one guy gives a movie ***1/2 and the other gives it **, so how does that prove that everyone uses the exact same credentials when rating a movie, or anything for that matter?

 

What it comes down to is whether or not someone LIKED the movie or match. For example, Bret Hart-Owen Hart was an excellent match, but parts of it may have bored some people, so why would this bored person still rate the match at *****? Seeing how they obviously don't think it was the greatest match of all-time.

[Guest HartFan86]

There are only really four main matches you have to see to understand 6/3/94.  It's not the whole story by any means, but it's the important parts of it.

 

Jumbo vs. Misawa 9/1/90

Jumbo vs. Kawada 10/24/91

Misawa vs. Kawada 3/27/93

Misawa/Kobash vs. Kawada/Taue 12/3/93

 

The story is basically this, if I get anything wrong somebody who knows more please correct me:  Misawa and Kawada were two young rising stars who were destined for greatness. However Jumbo was still "The Man" and wasn't about to step aside for no one.  

 

Eventually Jumbo retired, and now former partners Misawa and Kawada were left to scramble for his place at the top of the mountain. Though Misawa was clearly the number man, since he had like a two year reign as the Triple Crown Champion, and has a submission(in a tag match) and pinfall victory over Jumbo, and Kawada has never pinned Misawa in any way shape or form.  However Misawa's Triple Crown reign would end at the hands of Dr. Death. While Kawada would defeat Dr. Death to become the Triple Crown Champion.

 

With the momentum finally going his way, Kawada was finally ready to take on Misawa and defeat him.  Kawada knows every single one of Misawa's tricks and wants more than a pin, he wants to completely  destroy Misawa for years of humilating loses.

Now that's more reasonable then what Tim suggested. If that's the case, I'll make sure to check those 4 matches out. Thanks for the help, Coffin.

 

And Tim, I appreciate you posting all that setup to the 6/3/94 match, but I'm in the same boat as APO. I just don't have the money to go buy all that footage. At least I could download 3-4 of these matches Coffin suggested on Hotline with out forking hundreds of dollars.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"And Tim, I appreciate you posting all that setup to the 6/3/94 match, but I'm in the same boat as APO."

 

No prob...once you get hooked on the series, you will want to get all of those tapes I mentioned before

[Guest Ravenbomb]

Here is what to get:

 

Bobbarnett.com

 

Get the 4 vol Choshu's Army Invades AJPW

Do a test against NWA/WWF stuff from the same era to see the state of the art wrestling occuring in AJPW.

 

Then get K 88-90 and 94-98 to see the 88 RWTL and the two best matches from the Jumbo/Tenyru feud (the precursor to Misawa/Kawada)

 

Next, get Lynch to make you a Custom with the best from the Jumbo v Misawa and Co feud. Both Misawa v Jumbo singles matches, Jumbo v Kawada 10/24/91, Jumbo v Kobashi 5/91, and the best 6 man's.

 

Next, get every TV block from 1993 and you will be all set for the fantastic ride that is 6/3/94.

 

Tim

 

Ok, I'm stumped. I have NO Idea where to get Bobbarnett.com. I've tried every store in the area and still haven't found it.

[Guest Kibagami]

 

S.

[Guest TheHulkster]

I look at it this way: If you don't watch puro, its like watching Eddie Vs Edge on the last Smackdown (not saying Eddie Vs Edge is nearly as good as it, but bear with me). Alone, it's a really great match, but if you seen their matches at Summerslam, Unforgiven, that tag match on Smackdown where Eddie attacked Edge with a hard chairshot, and the segment before KOR where Edge had to give up his qualifying match against Jericho because of his shoulder injury, you can understand why Eddie would rabidly attack Edge's head, then work on Edge's shoulder so much, then trying to finish him off twice with a sunset powerbomb off of the ladder. The point is, watching Kawada Vs Misawa without watching said matches, you can't still enjoy it a great deal because it's a great match, but you can enjoy and understand why they are doing certain things more by watching said matches. By the way, **cheap plug** you can always watch 6/3/94 and several of the matches leading up to it by downloading hotline and going to the server under my sig

[Guest Special K]

I had just seen the previous Misawa v Kawada and the Misawa/Kobashi v Kawada/Taue matches, and knowing the story with Jumbo, I could appreciate Misawa v Kawada 94, and it remains, to this day, my favorite match.

 

Haven't seen RWTL 96 or ANY Joshi yet tho, so I can't say it's the best match ever.

 

I still don't see how people rank WrestleWar as anything less than 5* though. My analogy would be, just because Citizen Kane came along, it doesn't mean 7 samurai turned to crap. If a better singles match comes along, will everyone rate Misawa Kawada ****3/4? I hope not because it's fucking great.

[Guest Goodear]

As Tim pointed out, watching 6/3/94 as a stand alone is like tuning into the Supranos in the middle of Season 4 and complaining that you don't care about what's happening to any of the characters. Now, you may not care enough or have the money to buy the first three seasons of the Supranos on DVD, but if you were to knock the show based on that one episode alone that you didn't understand, you would be making a huge oversight, simply because you don't know the full story. This is no different.

Just as an aside to this discussion, I thought I would mention this paragraph a little and make some comments. Now, while it is true that you cannot take a series and completely bury it after one show since you don't know the entire history of the show. However, it is fair to complain when, in say five shows, you still have no clue as to who the characters are and what their motivations are. It is nessesary for the author or performer in a serial work to reference the past in a manner that allows new viewers to still enjoy it. For instance, during some periods of The X-Files, the show became such a convoluted mess that you couldn't follow the thing if you missed a show that took place 3 years ago.

 

This is not to say continuity isn't important, or a bad thing to put into a TV show (or match). Big Pussy getting killed being a rat for the government pays off a bridge that began at the end of the first season of The Sopranos. Yet, you could still understand what was happening if you had only seen the second seaon.

 

It appears to me that this match is like the ultimate hardcore fan payoff, playing of many matches that happened previously. Yet, it does not seem to translate well when it stands alone based on the opinions voiced in this thread. And quite frankly, to me, if a match does not entertain both a hardcore or a casual fan, it cannot be considered the best of all time.

[Guest godthedog]

And quite frankly, to me, if a match does not entertain both a hardcore or a casual fan, it cannot be considered the best of all time.

lots of casual fans, including my roommate, are bored by flair/steamboat. if it comes down to a compromise between marks & smarks, the best match ever would probably end up being the bret/austin 'i quit' match.

 

i watched the 6/3/94 match again over the weekend to see if it holds up better than i thought it did. the copy i have is clipped to about the 8 or 10 minute mark, but i was still really loving the match till misawa no-sold the kicks in the corner and started elbowing kawada (who, of course, sold the hell out of them). it wasn't even cool no-selling, like bret hart or kobashi, where you can tell he's fighting through the pain and standing up on sheer will, he just shrugs everything off and is like "eh, okay, i think i'll just elbow you now." and he'd sold the kicks like he was being hit with a hammer just a few minutes earlier. was he playing possum or something?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Goodear, I agree on your thoughts on TV shows throwing back to previous episodes to remind new viewers of past event, but you're talking about an entirely new beast when he demand the same of 6/3/94.

 

You're saying that guys who have never seen a single Japanese wrestling match in their entire life should be able to watch this and get the full affect? That is really a presumptuous statement, as you would be hard pressed to find any match in Japan that can be watched by someone who has never seen it before, and fully appreciated. I remember first seeing Benoit/Sasuke and thinking it was overrated tripe, but now that I've seent he tourniment a few times and grown to understand the psychology, nuances and motivations of the style, it's one of my favorite matches of all time. You cannot expect people to see this match without any previous knowledge, and fully appreciate it.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"but i was still really loving the match till misawa no-sold the kicks in the corner and started elbowing kawada (who, of course, sold the hell out of them). it wasn't even cool no-selling"

 

It was Kawada's last stand. He was 34 mins into the match and was done. His kicks were not lethal anymore...Misawa hulking up coming out of the corner was him being the man, showing that Kawada was this close to getting him, but not close enough. Very symbolic.

 

Watch it again with that in mind and I think it will become clearer to you and you will like it. It is typical Misawa selling...He is the man of the promotion and as the man, he had enough of what Kawada was giving him (plus Kawada's kicks were weaker) and he stopped it.

 

Tim

[Guest Kibagami]

I think it'd be quite helpful if one of the more knowledgeable puro people would write up a description of the backstory leading into the match. Everybody pimps the history of 6/3/94 to death, but I really don't know most of it. It'd be a nice primer for those of us who didn't get to see their earlier confrontations.

 

S.

[Guest XdojimeX]

"And quite frankly, to me, if a match does not entertain both a hardcore or a casual fan, it cannot be considered the best of all time."

 

Nah. Great art is rarely if ever "fun for the whole family".

 

Especially if it's foreign.

 

But 6/4/94 stands up on it's own perfectly fine as a great match for it's time 8 years later. It's only when you gain a greater understanding of the All Japan style, it's roots and the M/K rivalry that it stands the test of time as an all-time classic. The true sign of greatness.

[Guest Goodear]

You're saying that guys who have never seen a single Japanese wrestling match in their entire life should be able to watch this and get the full affect? That is really a presumptuous statement, as you would be hard pressed to find any match in Japan that can be watched by someone who has never seen it before, and fully appreciated. I remember first seeing Benoit/Sasuke and thinking it was overrated tripe, but now that I've seent he tourniment a few times and grown to understand the psychology, nuances and motivations of the style, it's one of my favorite matches of all time. You cannot expect people to see this match without any previous knowledge, and fully appreciate it.

Oh I agree Ricky, no one is going to be able to fully appreciate a puro match right off the bat, if they have only ever watched WWE style matches before. I would also stipulate that no one is going to be able to fully appreciate a WWE match rigfht off the bat either if they've never seen wrestling before. But the key word there is "fully." A casual veiwer should still be able to partially enjoy a match even if they don't know the history behind a rivalry and seen 14 previous encounters. The problems start when a match is soooo steeped in history that a new veiwer couldn't appreciate it at all.