Is there any match that all smarks rate *****?

[Guest Midnight Express83]

Is there any match rated five stars without much disagreement?

 

I think the only three matches to by ***** and everyone agree is *****

are Steamboat vs Flair(5/6/89-NWA). Kawada vs Misawa(6/3/94-AJPW). Savage vs Steamboat(3/17/87-WWF).

 

I say these are the greatest matches from these feds. They are true greatest matches of all time. They are just about flawless. If you going by storylines. They are the climax of what true storytelling in a match is. And all spots work perfectly. If judging standalone. There isn't a move in them that could be replaced and help the match more. The rest spots in these matches have meaning. They aren't just chinlocks for the sake of chinlocks.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I don't think Steamboat vs. Savage is *****

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Yeah there was some slow spots in Steamboat/Savage that keep it from being a ***** in my book. ****1/2 or 3/4 maybe.

[Guest Ravenbomb]

Savage/Steamboat from WMIII???

[Guest eiker_ir]

i think almost every smark rates Bret-Owen WM 10 *****

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Bret/Owen is around ****1/2 for me. Low end MOTYC for me. Too many great matches in 1994 that changed the landscape of wrestling.

 

Misawa/Kobashi v Kawada/Taue from 5/21/94 began the new formula of 20 minutes of logical pacing leading to 20 minutes of nearfalls. Even with a bad Taue in it, it is still ****1/2, on the upper end.

 

Misawa v Kawada on 6/3/94 is the best Men's Single match I have ever seen. No other men's singles match holds water in that river.

 

Michaels/Ramon started the ladder match craze. Not a MOTYC, but around ****-****1/4 that started the "Ladder Matches are fun" era.

 

Aja Kong and Minami Toyota on 11/20/94 have one of the best Women's singles matches ever, a MOTYC at ****3/4.

 

There are other matches. AJPW produced some killer 6 man's...the under rated 4/16/94 Kawada v Williams match...the critically acclaimed Benoit v Sasuke 4/16 match.

 

Just not enough room for Bret/Owen to top the best of the decade, best of the year, or even five stars.

 

Tim

[Guest HartFan86]

Bret Hart vs Steve Austin @ Survivor Series 1996.

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

I've rarely hear anything but ***** for Benoit vs Sasuke J-Cup 94. Hart vs Austin comes to mind....

[Guest RobJohnstone]

Bret/Owen is around ****1/2 for me. Low end MOTYC for me. Too many great matches in 1994 that changed the landscape of wrestling.

 

Misawa/Kobashi v Kawada/Taue from 5/21/94 began the new formula of 20 minutes of logical pacing leading to 20 minutes of nearfalls. Even with a bad Taue in it, it is still ****1/2, on the upper end.

 

Misawa v Kawada on 6/3/94 is the best Men's Single match I have ever seen. No other men's singles match holds water in that river.

 

Michaels/Ramon started the ladder match craze. Not a MOTYC, but around ****-****1/4 that started the "Ladder Matches are fun" era.

 

Aja Kong and Minami Toyota on 11/20/94 have one of the best Women's singles matches ever, a MOTYC at ****3/4.

 

There are other matches. AJPW produced some killer 6 man's...the under rated 4/16/94 Kawada v Williams match...the critically acclaimed Benoit v Sasuke 4/16 match.

 

Just not enough room for Bret/Owen to top the best of the decade, best of the year, or even five stars.

 

Tim

your damn right about kawada vs williams. Beniot vs sasuke was not 5 stars, the finish looked really fucked up.

 

--Rob

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I loved Benoit/Sasuke and still do, but it's not MOTY, no way, no how. It's in the same boat as Bret/Owen; if those matches had taken place this year, they would have easilly been top pics, but in '94, they don't really stand a chance, in the scheme of things.

[Guest I Fear Hogans Air Guitair]

I wouldn't say that savage vs steamboat was 5 stars and I haven't seen Misawa v Kawada but Flair vs steamboat was *****.

[Guest BAR]

Matches I'd rate 5*...

 

Flair vs. Steamboat - 2/4/89

Dynamite vs. TM - 21/4/83

Owen vs. Bret - 20/3/94

Misawa/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue - 6/12/96

Pegasus vs. Sasuke - 16/4/94

Art/Eddy vs. Octagon/Santo - 6/11/94

Misawa vs. Kawada - 3/6/94

Bret vs. Austin - 17/11/96

Eddy vs. Rey - 26/10/97

Edited July 30, 2003 by BAR

[Guest J*ingus]

So does anyone disagree with Flair/Steamboat being rated with the big *****?

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Sasuke / Benoit was the epitomine of well executed wrestling, but theres only so high a rating can go without any story, and there wasn't anything in that match, from what I could tell. It is certainly not *****.

 

I think the most widely rated ***** match ever, outside of Flair / Steamboat, is Misawa & Kobashi vs. Kawada & Taue, 6/9/95. Everyone who has seen that thinks it is *****, because it can be enjoyed even if you don't know the backstory particularly well, and everything was done to perfection.

[Guest cynicalprofit]

WM Austin vs Bret ***** easy, the ending with Austin passing out due to blood loss was perfect, the match was so good it basically buried Harts career and launched Austin into the stratusphere. It make Bret heel and Austin face even though thats not the way it should have been accorind to the 80's. This is the match that changed wrestling, or atleast showed the change.

 

Savage Steamboat wasnt *****, ****, sure, it was solid back and forth, but george the animal involved really didnt help the match, sure he stole the ring bell, but the ref could have done that fine all by himself.

 

If the Kawada vs Misawa is the one i think it is, ive dled lots of their matches so im not 100% sure its one ive seen, yeah *****, but even if its not, ive never seen them not hit ***1/2

[EL DANDY~! 0]

OK. So we all agree that the only one at ***** (no doubts about it) is Kawada/Misawa-6/3/94, correct?

 

Now...personally, I loved Steamer/Savage (****3/4) and I LOVED LOVED LOVED Flair/Steamer (*****), but there are dispairaging remarks for those...so I guess we only have one.

 

For tag match, 6/9/95 definitely comes to mind...

[Guest RickyChosyu]

You'd be hard-pressed to find someone who wouldn't bring RW Finals '96 in a debate like this.

 

As for Benoit/Sasuke having no story, I really hope you don't mean that in the "they were just replicating TM/DK, so it's not good!" way that some buffoons (i.e., Scott Keith) do. I can understand how one could enterpret it as a lot spots, but I think it has a lot more to it, if you're willing to look.

 

Sasuke, for example, had basically reached the finals by siezing opportunities when he got them, and he'd been a total underdog in all of his matches (Sammy worked his legs forever, Liger just kicked mauled the hell out of him) who managed to overcome his opponents by using what they gave him to his advantage. While he tries that with Benoit at times, he really doesn't pull it off the way he had before. With Benoit, he seems too focused on out-performing him, and doesn't take those opportunities when he should. That's what ends up costing him the match, as he takes too long to set up a move and Benoit just kills him. Benoit proves himself to be just as good, if not better than any Junior in the promotion, and reafirms himself as part of the division's foundation. Great story, IMO.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

RWTL Finals from 1996 is one that won't get mentioned because people haven't either seen it or don't get it (kind of like they don't get 6/3/94). It is a RICH match. The best men's match I have ever seen. But that is the same old shit that good old jdw has been spouting for yrs.

 

For me, no one can argue the following matches to be below *****:

 

11/26/92 Toyota/Yamada v Ozaki/Kansai

6/3/94 Misawa v Kawada

6/9/95 Misawa/Kobashi v Kawada/Taue

12/6/96 Misawa/Akiyama v Kawada/Taue

 

I still need to see Hokuto/Kandori which shoul dbe here Tues. In a "Pro Style" context, these are the best out there. I would also have a real hard time with people arguing these not being *****:

 

8/88 Takada v Yamazaki

7/7/90 MX v SB

12/3/93 RWTL Finals

1/97 & 9/97 Tamura v Han

6/98 Tamura v Han

 

Tim

[Guest ShamRock]

I saw Flair vs. Steamboat from WrestleWar '89.I was a bit dissappointed.I'd give it ***3/4.

 

Macho vs. Steamboat was *****,IMO.

[Guest godthedog]

OK. So we all agree that the only one at ***** (no doubts about it) is Kawada/Misawa-6/3/94, correct?

 

Now...personally, I loved Steamer/Savage (****3/4) and I LOVED LOVED LOVED Flair/Steamer (*****), but there are dispairaging remarks for those...so I guess we only have one.

 

For tag match, 6/9/95 definitely comes to mind...

i personally wouldn't put 6/3/94 at 5 stars.

 

wouldn't put flair/steamboat at 5 either, for reasons i've stated a couple times before.

 

honestly, the only match i know of i've never heard ANY dispute whatsoever about is hansen/kobashi.

 

I saw Flair vs. Steamboat from WrestleWar '89.I was a bit dissappointed.I'd give it ***3/4.

 

WHAT??? what would you put at ****?

[Guest Tim Cooke]

How is 6/3/94 not *****?

 

This should be fun.

 

Tim

[Guest godthedog]

uf...

 

there just seemed to be something missing from it, that "oh my god" intensity that's apparent in hansen/kobashi, bret/owen, etc. it just appeared to me as a borderline-great all-japan that was missing that extra "oomph."

 

i know that's incredibly vague, but it's been a while since i've seen it. i'll watch it again & revise my opinion if need be.

 

also, it should be noted that, although i'm pretty familiar with the backstory, i've never seen the backstory unfold, so i'm pretty much limited to beholding it as a match on its own and not the culmination of 4 years' build. i'm making no pretense of objectivity in my rating.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

I think people like the Hansen/Kobashi match because Kobashi's head should have fallen off his shoulders with that lariat...ABSOLUTELY BRUTAL LARIATOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

I wanna know people's opinions on...6/8/01...C'mon. It's 51-year old Genichiro Tenryu against the Kneeless Wonder and they HAVE to have that match at **** or more.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

People like the Hansen/Kobashi match for more than just the finish, I think.

 

I'd put it at ****. Mutoh performed the best he had all year, but Tenryu made the match, I think.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

People like the Hansen/Kobashi match for more than just the finish, I think.

 

I'd put it at ****. Mutoh performed the best he had all year, but Tenryu made the match, I think.

OK. I LOVED the finish. For me, it made that match SO great. Without the finish, it was still great, but that finish put it over the top. The crowd just went SILENT afterwards. Incredible.

 

And Tenryu has got to be the greatest wrestler over 50 today. TOP ROPE RANA ANYBODY? SPIDER SUPLEX? HELLO! HE'S OLDER THAN DIRT!!! Oh man. I totally didn't think it was great until I put it into context with the age thing...blew my mind away.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

People like the Hansen/Kobashi match for more than just the finish, I think.

 

I'd put it at ****. Mutoh performed the best he had all year, but Tenryu made the match, I think.

OK. I LOVED the finish. For me, it made that match SO great. Without the finish, it was still great, but that finish put it over the top. The crowd just went SILENT afterwards. Incredible.

 

And Tenryu has got to be the greatest wrestler over 50 today. TOP ROPE RANA ANYBODY? SPIDER SUPLEX? HELLO! HE'S OLDER THAN DIRT!!! Oh man. I totally didn't think it was great until I put it into context with the age thing...blew my mind away.

Don't forget the old man tope. Tenyru's nuts to be doing that stuff at his age. He's almost as crazy as Gran Hamada.

 

Seriously though, I think the match had more going for it then the combined age its participants.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I saw Flair vs. Steamboat from WrestleWar '89.I was a bit dissappointed.I'd give it ***3/4.

 

Macho vs. Steamboat was *****,IMO.

...

[Guest XdojimeX]

"8/88 Takada v Yamazaki

7/7/90 MX v SB

12/3/93 RWTL Finals

1/97 & 9/97 Tamura v Han

6/98 Tamura v Han"

 

You mean Kohsaka there right?

 

Anyhow I'd argue for MX/SB and Takada/Yamazki at being more in the ****1/2 MOTY range rather than sure fire all-time classics. Just a gut feeling though. I actually prefer Takada's match with Hase that year despite it not being quite as cutting edge. By far my favorite of the late 80's Jr. era. The brevity of the Tamura/Han matches could be argued against it too now that I think about it, especially compared to the epic Tamura/Kohsaka rolled out a year later. On the other hand they we're working such a specialized style, 10-15 minutes of virtusoic execution and the sheer uniqueness of Han tend to add up in it's favor.

 

The "no psych" argument against Sasuke/Benoit is goofy. Never mind the TM vs. DK referencing, it was as much a progression as it was a tribute to that pair. Classic high flyer vs. power, under dog vs. top dog with great transitions, pacing and build trancendent for the style, and state of the art work that still holds up nearly a decade later. The epitome of a Juniors classic. Liger's booking was never better either.

[Guest goodhelmet]

i don't think anyone who has seen 6/9/95 has ever rated it below *****. and that's from looking at a lot of cynical, jaded opinions. that is the best tag match of all time

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Tenryu / Mutoh is very over-rated, I don't care if they are old or not, it's still just a spot fest match, with Mutoh doing nothing but his usual and Tenryu being cool but nothing hugely special.

 

I'd go about ***1/2 - ***3/4 if I was inclined to use snow flakes.