Guest BAR Report post Posted September 27, 2002 Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask - the one where DK wins by DQ when Tiger backdrops him into the crowd. Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask - The MSG one. Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask - 2/3 Falls Match (21/4/83). Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask - TM wins by a moonsault (5/8/82). I would've put more dates but I don't want to watch the start of each match just to check them out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Agent of Oblivion Report post Posted September 28, 2002 the 2/3 falls is the best one listed, if you're referring to the one where DK breaks a bottle on the ring post and goes after Sayama with it. I'd call it ****1/2. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted September 28, 2002 I've only seen the first one on your list, and I would rate it at about ***-***1/4. Seemed like they were building towards something very good before the Bret Hart interferance kicked in, but it never really went anywhere. Can't help you with the date, since I just got it on a comp. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Tim Cooke Report post Posted September 28, 2002 Dynamite Kid = over rated wrestler of the 1980's, along with Randy Savage. I can see the revolutionary stuff they were doing but the matches lack something. Maybe I just don't *get* the whole DK fanboy thing. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted September 28, 2002 Haven't seen enough of his work to judge, but I'd say a large amount of his fandom is generated by how much he bumped, the series with Sayama (that was groundbreaking, if anything) and the fact that he spawned Chris Benoit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BAR Report post Posted September 28, 2002 Note: I have now found the dates for all of the matches (and have edited parts of my first post). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Agent of Oblivion Report post Posted September 28, 2002 DK was an amazing bumper, his offense ALWAYS looked credible, he was doing stuff in 81, 82, and 83 that made people's heads spin, the series with Sayama revolutionized cruiserweight wrestling, doing sequences and spots that are still being ripped off almost 20 years later, the whole Benoit thing is just icing on the cake. Speaking of which, how can you think Kid's overrated when Benoit's not? I mean, he basically has patterned his in-ring style as a carbon-copy of Dynamite's. Well, aside from doing horse steroids, smoking crack, and working with injuries that left him wheelchair-ridden. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest redbaron51 Report post Posted September 28, 2002 2/3 falls match is well ****1/2 stars IMO, best match by Dynamite Kid/Tiger Mask Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TheHulkster Report post Posted September 29, 2002 I'd definitely give the 2/3 falls match ****, but I can't say it was my favorite DK-Tiger Mask match. My favorite is the match where TM defeats DK with a German Suplex. It was a bit on the short side, but what they packed into that time was amazing. I liked the MSG match a bunch too. I'd put it on par with the 2/3 falls match. What I didn't like about the 2/3 falls match was the ending. The great thing about the Tiger Mask-Dynamite Kid matches is that they could've happened yesterday and you would still say "That was a great match", and they happened in 81-82. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted September 29, 2002 Just because he coppied the man's move-set doesn't mean they're the same wrestler. You can see shades of Dynamite in Liger's work, too, but I don't think he's confined to being another DK, either. Like I said, I haven't seen enough of his work to decide, but it's not outiside the realm of possibility that Benoit topped DK as a worker. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wolverine Report post Posted September 29, 2002 I think Benoit definitely topped DK. No question in my mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Agent of Oblivion Report post Posted September 29, 2002 I do too. Kid still deserves a LOT of credit, though. IMO. They're not the same wrestler of course, but it's not hard to watch Benoit and see all the similarities. A few workers have borrowed bits and pieces from both Sayama and Kid. Sasuke comes to mind immediately, as does Lyger. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BAR Report post Posted September 29, 2002 I think he has 'passed' Dynamite in a sense, but he has took DK's style and added a new dimension to it. Oh, by the way, I think the 2/3 Falls Match is ****3/4. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Midnight Express83 Report post Posted September 29, 2002 every generation there is a major star, the next generaton there a star just like him but better. Kid to Benoit. Rogers to Flair. Graham to Steiner(kind of). Sayama to Liger. as for the 2/3 falls match ****3/4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted September 29, 2002 I don't get the Sayama to Liger approach there. As I said before, Liger reminds me of Dynamite more than Sayama. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wolverine Report post Posted September 29, 2002 JUSHIN LIGER - The man who would almost have to be on the top of any list of the greatest junior heavyweight wrestlers of all-time. Born Keiichi Yamada in Hiroshima, Japan on November 10, 1964. A wrestling fan from childhood, he placed second in the country at 165 pounds in the high school wrestling championships, losing in the finals to Toshiaki Kawada, which no doubt would be the only national high school wrestling tournament where both members in the finals would up in a pro wrestling Hall of Fame. Tried out for New Japan but was rejected for being too small, being only 5-4 1/2. Learned wrestling in Mexico, spotted by a member of New Japan management on tour and given another chance. Debuted in 1984. Tied with Tom Zenk for Observer Rookie of the Year award that year while being nicknamed the "Japanese Dynamite Kid." Went to England in 1986-87, holding the World heavy middleweight title twice as Flying Fuji Yamada, feuding with British legend Mark "Rollerball" Rocco (who wrestled in Japan as the original Black Tiger), then went to Calgary before returning to Japan, where he gained notice for developing the shooting star press, the hottest move in wrestling in 1987-88. Given the gimmick of Jushin "Thunder" Liger at the first wrestling show ever at the Tokyo Dome on April 24, 1989 to become New Japan's top junior heavyweight star as a high flier patterned after the success of Tiger Mask seven years earlier, beating the original Tiger Mask's big rival Kuniaki Kobayashi in a match which was considered a disappointment. Won the IWGP jr. heavyweight title for the first time one month later from Hiroshi Hase in a match which was anything but a disappointment, and held the title on-and-off for the next decade, eventually booking the entire junior heavyweight division. While Satoru Sayama and Dynamite Kid paved the way for smaller men to become stars in Japan in the early 80's, the definition of smaller got smaller from 80's sized junior heavyweight superstars like Dynamite Kid, Davey Boy Smith, George (Cobra) Takano, Hiro Saito, Bret Hart, Hase, Nobuhiko Takada and others, some of whom became legendary heavyweights, to Liger's rivals like Ultimo Dragon and Great Sasuke, who could never wrestle as heavyweights. Most likely had more great matches with more different opponents during the 90's of any wrestler in the world. In 1991, nearly became the only junior heavyweight in history to win the Wrestler of the Year award. Also captured the Observer's Most Outstanding Wrestler award three time, Best Technical Wrestler award four times and Best Flier award five times. His January 31, 1990 match with Naoki Sano won Match of the Year, and over the course of the decade, had numerous matches in the top ten with rivals such as Wild Pegasus (Chris Benoit), Koji Kanemoto, Shinjiro Otani, Owen Hart, Hase, Black Tiger (Eddie Guerrero), Brian Pillman, Great Sasuke, Ultimo Dragon and El Samurai. During an era when most superstars didn't put over new talent, Liger should gain even more credit for literally making more new stars and rivals than any other star of his calibre by putting them over cleanly. His nine reigns as IWGP jr. heavyweight champion make him the Ric Flair of the lighter weight division. Overcame both a broken ankle in 1994, which caused him to have to modify his style with more mat wrestling, and a brain tumor in 1996, to remain a top ten calibre worker. Perhaps his greatest booking coup of all was in 1996, when he put eight ligher weight world champions together in a one-week tournament as part of G-1 to create the J Crown, and book himself, the biggest star of the tournament, to lose in the first round (largely because he had secretly been diagnosed with the brain tumor). - Excerpt from the 8/16/99 Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame issue Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DragonflyKid Report post Posted November 9, 2002 I just finished watching a tape of the DK/TM series which I did find exciting. I just want to know some official times and finishes of some of the matches, all of them seem to be in full except the last two. The 2/3 falls match has me confused about who wins what fall, can anyone help me out with that? This is what I have but am unsure of the accuracy, the match times have been rounded off due to my VCR counter not always correlating with official match times in the past. Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask 4/23/81 ***1/4 [Tiger Mask, German Suplex Hold, 9:30] Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask 1/1/82 *** [Tiger Mask, Rollup, 8:30] Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask 1/28/82 ***1/2 [Tiger mask, German Suplex Hold, 12:40] Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask 7/23/82 ***3/4 [Double Count Out, 13:55] Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask 8/5/82 ****1/2 [Tiger Mask, Diving Splash after Gutwrench Spike, 16:00] Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask 8/30/82 (CL) ***1/2+ [Tiger Mask pinfall, Diving Splash after Suplex, 6:35 of 9:30] Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask 4/21/83 (CL?) ****+ [Draw?, 11:15 shown; Overtime: Tiger Mask by Countout?, 3:35 shown; 2nd OT: DCO, 1:50 shown] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Coffin Surfer Report post Posted November 9, 2002 I just finished watching a tape of the DK/TM series which I did find exciting. I just want to know some official times and finishes of some of the matches, all of them seem to be in full except the last two. The 2/3 falls match has me confused about who wins what fall, can anyone help me out with that? This is what I have but am unsure of the accuracy, the match times have been rounded off due to my VCR counter not always correlating with official match times in the past. Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask 4/23/81 ***1/4 [Tiger Mask, German Suplex Hold, 9:30] Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask 1/1/82 *** [Tiger Mask, Rollup, 8:30] Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask 1/28/82 ***1/2 [Tiger mask, German Suplex Hold, 12:40] Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask 7/23/82 ***3/4 [Double Count Out, 13:55] Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask 8/5/82 ****1/2 [Tiger Mask, Diving Splash after Gutwrench Spike, 16:00] Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask 8/30/82 (CL) ***1/2+ [Tiger Mask pinfall, Diving Splash after Suplex, 6:35 of 9:30] Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask 4/21/83 (CL?) ****+ [Draw?, 11:15 shown; Overtime: Tiger Mask by Countout?, 3:35 shown; 2nd OT: DCO, 1:50 shown] I disagree with the 1/1/82, and 1/28/82, I think those stand out as the two best matches they ever did. Both are in the ****-****1/4 range. Everything else is a watered down version of those two matches, with a few different spots thrown in. Defiently better than the overrated 2/3 falls match. I believe the 7/82 ended with a DQ for Tiger Mask not releasing a figure four or something, when Kid made the ropes. It's the one with Bret Hart at ringside, right. Than Tiger hits Bret with the Space Flying Tiger Drop, and Kid hits Tiger with a tombstone on the floor. I might be mistaken though, my tape didn't come with any dates. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DragonflyKid Report post Posted November 9, 2002 I disagree with the 1/1/82, and 1/28/82, I think those stand out as the two best matches they ever did. Both are in the ****-****1/4 range. Everything else is a watered down version of those two matches, with a few different spots thrown in. Defiently better than the overrated 2/3 falls match. I think they both worked tremendously together, the only thing I felt that kept the matches from being consistently ****+ instead of ***+ was the time, 5 more minutes per each of the shorter matches would have made them even better. I believe the 7/82 ended with a DQ for Tiger Mask not releasing a figure four or something, when Kid made the ropes. It's the one with Bret Hart at ringside, right. Than Tiger hits Bret with the Space Flying Tiger Drop, and Kid hits Tiger with a tombstone on the floor. I might be mistaken though, my tape didn't come with any dates. I think 7/82 was a DCO but it might have been a DQ for someone, I remember some sick looking bump being taken on the guardrail when the bell rang. Is there a official name for the move TM used in the 8/5/82 match? It looked like he was going for a gutwrench suplex, held DK vertically and just spiked him on his head. I do wish I had the patience to learn Japanese. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Downhome Report post Posted November 9, 2002 I've seen them all, every one of them (tag matches included). Simply put, they are my favorite series of matches, ever, over anything else, period. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BAR Report post Posted November 10, 2002 The 2/3 falls match has me confused about who wins what fall, can anyone help me out with that? The 2/3 Falls Match was for the vacant NWA Junior Heavyweight Title, held on April 21, 1983. The first fall went to Dynamite as Tiger got DQ'ed for putting DK into the crowd (This was the finish for the one with Bret at ringside also). The second fall went to TM, I think DK got DQ'ed for attacking him when he was down. The 3rd fall was a double count out. This left the title still vacant. Dynamite later won it in a 3 way with DBS and The Cobra, I believe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Black Tiger Report post Posted November 11, 2002 I did notice one thing in all the DK/Benoit comparisons. In 1984 DK wins the WWF Jr. Title from The Cobra in the finals of a tournament, DK uses a super gut-wrench and almost gets three, he gets the pin after a rollup I think (its been a while since I've seen it). In 1994 Benoit wins the WWF Jr. Title in the finals of a tournament defeating The Great Sasuke...with a top rope gut-wrench. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest dreamer420 Report post Posted November 11, 2002 Dynamite Kid = over rated wrestler of the 1980's, along with Randy Savage. I can see the revolutionary stuff they were doing but the matches lack something. Maybe I just don't *get* the whole DK fanboy thing. Tim Are you a Chris Benoit fan? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Tim Cooke Report post Posted November 11, 2002 Yes, I am a huge Benoit fan. But he has surpasses everything DK did. If you want to talk about influencial guys/feuds, Choshu and co revolutionizing AJPW in 1985-1986 was ten times what DK/TM did. BTW, Benoit/Sasuke is an EXACT playoff of the DK/TM for the guy who noticed only one similarity. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Your Paragon of Virtue 0 Report post Posted November 11, 2002 Yeah, it was eerie how similar the matches were, although I enjoyed the Final Super J Cup match more once I watched all the DK/TM matches... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted November 11, 2002 Yeah, Sasuke/Benoit was on another levle entirely. It's influenced by DK/TM, but it's just as much a progresion past that as a tribute to it. Personally, I found the few Dynamite matches I've seen to be very crisp and exciting, but lacking in depth. I can regognize that it was influencial, but when you have someone like Benoit who does all the same stuff and makes it meaningfull, I just can't get into Kid that much. I've heard from many that the DK/TM series wasn't the best DK material around, mainly because Sayama needed lots of carrying in certain instances. Any ideas on where to find his higher-quality work? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Andy Report post Posted November 11, 2002 I thought it was an incredible series. I'd put the 2/3 falls match easily at ****3/4 - *****. Cheers, Andy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Agent of Oblivion Report post Posted November 11, 2002 I've heard from many that the DK/TM series wasn't the best DK material around, mainly because Sayama needed lots of carrying in certain instances. Any ideas on where to find his higher-quality work? I'm willing to bet that a lot of it never found its way to tape. In his book, he mentioned his matches with Rocco, none of which I have seen anywhere. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted November 11, 2002 The matches with Rocco most likely took place in the British indies, and finding eighties footage of that can be dificult. There's probably someone on the DVD board that could help. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Tim Cooke Report post Posted November 11, 2002 Lynch and Barnett have fairly decent collections of good 80's England stuff with Rocco and DK. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
