Has there been any ***** matches this year

[Guest Black Tiger]

Have any matches this year made it to *****? Off the top of my head I can't think of any.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

No and there hasn't been a ***** match since 1998.

 

Tim

[Guest wolverine]

And just to clarify, that's the 6/27/98 Tamura vs. Kohsaka, that Tim is referring to as the last ***** match.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

And everyone thinks the WWE is in freefall...

[Guest Tim Cooke]

They are in free fall. Plain and simply though, WWF/E has never had a ***** match either ijn its entire history.

 

Tim

[Guest RickyChosyu]

If Japan produced even a fairly high-end match this year, I haven't heard of it. Stuart Max and a few guys on here have been hyping the Chono/Tenzan vs. Nakanishi/Nishimura broadway match quite a bit, but I've pretty much given up on trying to maintain an interest with any of the men's promotions right now, which explains why my expectations for Tenryu/Kojima are also rather skeptical.

[Guest J*ingus]

Plain and simply though, WWF/E has never had a ***** match either ijn its entire history.

That's a pretty bold statement. Have you seen any match from any American promotion that you'd classify as the full *****?

[Guest Jubuki]

The Flair/Steamboat from 2/20 might have, for a little while, qualified, and the 4/2 match might be better than the 2/20 despite the screwy 3rd fall. At least, that is, until Jumbo/Tenryu whupped 'em both.

 

The Mid-South house shows might have pumped out some fine stuff with the talent they had. The Flair/Windham series is often discussed with very high praise. In the late 70's...it'd be interesting to see what was going on in the NWA territories when Flair, Race, Funk (Terry), and Brisco were all in the mix with guys like Steamboat, Slaughter, etc. roaming through as well. And who knows how good Destroyer's 60's matches were - could have been fantastic themselves.

 

Then there's Rogers/O'Connor, which is widely talked about, but is a bit hard for many to judge with the modicum of A) surrounding tape footage and B) people who understand its context. Not to mention that wrestling is still a form the Japanese took from us; there's a reason gaijin make such an impact and there's a reason why they still count pins to three instead of san. So let's not try to pretend that this is an America-bashing thread; saying that the Japanese product has blown away the U.S. product for the last 15 years is, at this stage, a simple declarative statement to make.

 

As for fabulous matches...there hasn't been anything within a country mile of Tamura/Kohsaka or Kawada/Kobashi since they happened. It seems like the bar lowers itself every year, too.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

I have seen some very "high class" US matches which on any given day, I could give ****1/2-***** to.

 

7/7/90 Midnight Express v Southern Boys

- The height of the style of tag team wrestling that the MX, RnR Express, Fantastics, etc produced. Eaton and Lane took Smothers and Armstrong, two excited and motivated guys, and made 18:30 minutes of the best that I have seen out of US tag team wrestling.

 

6/13/93 Windham v Scorpio

- The best US example of Youngster v Veteran that I have seen. Probably a tad short to be a real classic, but up there in every other category. Certainly more intense and passionate than Hart v Hart from WM 10 or Austin v Hart from WM 13.

 

I'll go to bat for a lot of other US matches as well. The Flair/Windham series, Flair/Steamboat 4/2, MX/Fantastics 88 series.

 

But the WWF has done nothing that has made me think "This is the best thing that I have seen." Michaels/Ramon II comes close, but they were a year late and a dollar short behind the design of that match (6/3/94).

 

Tim

[Guest wolverine]

"That's a pretty bold statement. Have you seen any match from any American promotion that you'd classify as the full *****?"

 

I personally have not. I maintain that the best U.S. match I've seen is Eddy Guerrero vs. Rey Misterio Jr. from 10/26/97, which I rated ****3/4.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I don't pretend to know anything about JApanese wrestling...but I do know that North American wrestlings problems aren't not having ***** matches...because they never do.

 

Their problem is fans fleeing from the product as fast as possible.

[Guest The Son of Sting]

Tenryu/Kojima is the best match i have seen from Japan this year.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

They are in free fall. Plain and simply though, WWF/E has never had a ***** match either ijn its entire history.

 

Tim

I've got to disagree with that. I'm not trying to turn this into some NA vs. Puro thread or anything, but Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin from 96 Survivor Series was every bit of ***** in my book.

[Guest wolverine]

You have to look at its competition that year and it's not a very strong argument. Maybe if it took place today, I could see it (not that I would agree either), but when you have matches like 12/6/96 taking place the same year, it simply doesn't stack up. There are also other Misawa/Akiyama tags that I would put above it. Not to mention two of the best junior heavyweight matches ever in Liger-Ohtani 3/17/96 and Ultimo-Ohtani 8/4/96. Then there's the TJ Rey-Juvi that I haven't seen, but I'm sure is way up there. Plus I don't think it was as good as the Ultimo-Rey match from World War III now that I think about it.

[Guest Studmaster 2000]

If it makes you feel any better, there hasn't been a legit 5 star here in America, for....god knows how long. I don't consider TLC's, escpecially the clusterfuck that was II 5 stars. Austin and Rock at WM XVII wasn't even close either. (You can tell how much I hate WMXVII for being so overrated) The "US" Tag Team Title match at Unforgiven was ****1/2 in my eyes. With Edge and Gurrerro on SD being ****-****1/2 and Benoit and Angle at No Mercy at ****1/4-****3/4 (Biased Tilt here). Bret/Benoit '99 comes really close, but I haven't seen it so long.

 

If you really want to know what my last 5 Star American Matches were...

 

Tag Team: Nasty Boys vs Kevin Sulliva and Catcus Jack (This is real IMO here)

 

Singles Match: Rey/Ultimo at Halloween Havoc '97

 

Gimmick Match: Wargames '92.

[Guest wolverine]

It's Rey-Eddy at Halloween Havoc....There's also no point in bringing up any of those TLC matches, which aren't even close to ****, let alone five. Plus Austin-Rock wasn't even the best match on the card. That would go to Benoit-Angle, which I think I rated ***3/4. And Bret-Benoit doesn't come close either, especially when you see Mariko Yoshida completely blowing away everyone when it comes to technical wrestling that year.

[Guest Jubuki]

So how is it that the TLC matches are clusterfucks, but Nastys vs. Jack/Sully isn't one? Not that I'm defending one or the other... they're in the same shitty boat for me.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

When I first saw the Cactus/Sullivan v Nasty Boys matches, I knew they sucked instantly. Even in 1994, I don't see how they were so revolutionary when AJW was using tables and weapons longer and better for years prior.

 

Rey/Eddy is close to the best in the US for me though I still prefer the two matches I listed earlier.

 

As for Wargames 1992, it is the BEST wargames ever and the BEST gimmick match to cmoe out of the US, but it isn't *****. MOTYC? Sure. But a gimmick match like that needs something really over the top to put it at *****. Still, a very engrossing match.

 

Tim

[Guest Jubuki]

Funny - I was in the middle of reviewing Stampede '94 (with the Payne brawl) about 15 months ago and then stalled out on it, which was around the time I started really digging in to just about everything I watched and no longer felt bad about cutting loose with every ugly thought that crossed my mind during crap matches. I think it was a combination of the overhyped "I hit you, you hit me" brawl, the Pillman/Regal match that should have been 20x better than it was, and a terrible terrible terrible Mutoh/Austin match (which was totally skunked by their G1 92 match that isn't even excellent or anything) that made me want to smash the tape into tiny bits. But, since I've had requests for oldish WCW, maybe that's a good place to start working backwards. 1992 WCW is a super-intriguing fed, too, with the way they pissed away such great chances to put themselves on top a first time.

 

Whoa, this is the Puroresu folder - what am I DOING!?!?!? ZENJO ZENJO ZENJO, there, we're on topic now. 1992 WCW or 1992 AJW...Zenjo~! There's a company that paid off on its talent and promise...

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Yes, review some of the good WCW because when it is good, it really does stand out as being fun and on a high level.

 

Tim

[EL DANDY~! 0]

So what do you guys have the Nakanishi/Nishimura vs. Chono/Tenzan and the Kojima/Tenryu matches at then?

[Guest Tim Cooke]

The first is coming next week....the latter, maybe some day. If either reach a MOTYC level, I will be surprised. In all honesty, I have more confidence in TM/Hidaka from May, Hoskikawa/Hidaka from May, and Ito/Toyota from kicking the ass of those two matches. But only viewing will tell I guess.

 

Tim

[Guest Pop Culture God]

I've always held that a ***** star match should represent the truest form of it's genre. Like in film, I can say that both The Empire Strikes Back and The Godfather Part Two or Seven Samurai are all ***** and still like one more than another based on style and genre. Going by that I nominate for five star status:

 

 

Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (NWA, 1989)

 

The Ultimate Blood Feud, Period. The crowd believed more than any other feud in history, that these men wanted to kill each other.

 

Wild Pegasus vs. The Great Sasuke (Super J-Cup 94)

 

Until I see more New Japan Light Heavyweights I consider this the best match I have seen in that style.

 

Kojima vs. Tenryu (All-Japan)

 

My favorite All Japan match bar none.

 

I'll think up some more later, I'm beat.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (NWA, 1989)"

 

Fun feud. But for such a blood feud, there certainly wasn't that much blood. Flair didn't blade at Wrestle War, he bled at GAB, he didn't blade in the Clash match in September, and didn't blade in the I Quit Match to blow it off.

 

"Kojima vs. Tenryu (All-Japan)

 

My favorite All Japan match bar none."

 

No offense, but you need to see a lot more AJPW then.

 

Tim

[Guest Studmaster 2000]

So how is it that the TLC matches are clusterfucks, but Nastys vs. Jack/Sully isn't one? Not that I'm defending one or the other... they're in the same shitty boat for me.

And you know, you have a great point there. I really have no defense for it either, except I haven't seen it since '99, so I really have no right to comment on said match. (If we were to discount that match it would be Southern Boys vs Midnights 7/7/90)

 

As for War Games '92, I put it on the 5* level because of the storyline that went with it. For the past 8 months the Dangerous Alliance and the top faces were at odds with each other on so many levels, you had Windam who still wanted revenge for his broken arm. Dustin and Steamboat who wanted pay back for the lost Tag Team Titles. Steamboat who was off a nasty feud with Rude, in which Rude smashed his face. Sting and Rude who hated each other with a passion. Nikita and Rude were beginning a title chase that was pissed away in the end (but was awesome at this time). Not to metion Dangerously and Madusa at ringside as well. It was truly the best builded War Games with only the Horseman and Super Powers tieing it. And the chaos and carnage that followed was just spot on. I wouldn't put it on Starrcade 85, Magumn/Blancard level, but it would be just below it. They went to the ultimate Lengths to beat each other. Even destroying the ring in the process too. I know for some people Gimmick Matches don't deserve 5*, and in some ways I agree. But this is one of the time it didn't matter IMO. In fact, the fact it was a Wargames, helped it. Even though there is the arguement it should've been at Halloween Havoc 92.

[Guest Pop Culture God]

"Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (NWA, 1989)"

 

Fun feud. But for such a blood feud, there certainly wasn't that much blood. Flair didn't blade at Wrestle War, he bled at GAB, he didn't blade in the Clash match in September, and didn't blade in the I Quit Match to blow it off.

 

"Kojima vs. Tenryu (All-Japan)

 

My favorite All Japan match bar none."

 

No offense, but you need to see a lot more AJPW then.

 

Tim

1. I meant blood feud as in, They want to kill each other. Let's face it, Funk broke Flair's neck. It doesn't get much more personal. You're taking the blood thing too literally.

 

2. I just started watching Puro 6 monthes ago, that's the best I've watched so far.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"1. I meant blood feud as in, They want to kill each other. Let's face it, Funk broke Flair's neck. It doesn't get much more personal. You're taking the blood thing too literally."

 

Nah, you just didn't write it clearly.

 

"2. I just started watching Puro 6 monthes ago, that's the best I've watched so far."

 

Cool...keep on watching. If you liked that match, you will love the classics from the past decades.

 

Tim

[Guest Pop Culture God]

"1. I meant blood feud as in, They want to kill each other. Let's face it, Funk broke Flair's neck. It doesn't get much more personal. You're taking the blood thing too literally."

 

Nah, you just didn't write it clearly.

 

"2. I just started watching Puro 6 monthes ago, that's the best I've watched so far."

 

Cool...keep on watching. If you liked that match, you will love the classics from the past decades.

 

Tim

Yeah, I'm really trying to be as diverse as possible and it dosn't make it easy for me to be really knowledgable in one area like I am with NA stuff.

[Guest Jubuki]

Diversity is overrated (and overrated is an overrated word, too). What's harder to find (and to be) is someone who knows what there is to know about a single promotion or period of time, a person who can tell you pretty much exactly what you're looking for when you ask a question and probably give more of an answer than you need...at least until your own knowledge starts to catch up and you see what they were getting at with their earlier statements. I'd rather be THAT guy (EDIT: though I would absolutely NOT want to be the Guy some of you are bound to be thinking of vis a vis the description - no thankee) than be yet another person who's seen a little bit of everything and can only give snippets of input on wrestlers and matches without hitting anything too deeply.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

Well, in my opinion, having a broad range of experience is just fine, but using that experience unwisely (i.e. not backing up any claims) is not smart. I say if you have a reason to your madness, go ahead and talk.