Is Misawa/Kawada the greatest match of all time?

[Guest Pop Culture God]

There's an auction on Ebay right now selling a tape of the 1994 1 Hour Draw between Kawada and Misawa. He says that this has been hailed by the wrestling community as "... the greatest match of ALL TIME, and I dare you to disagree!"

 

Any thoughts on whether it is worth it to pay 10 bucks for literally one match or whether the match is the greatest of all time?

 

 

Oh and one dumb fuck is selling 6 AJPW figures and he identifies Giant Baba as "Giant Papa". UGH! Get it right dude.

[Guest wolverine]

Misawa and Kawada never had a one hour draw.

 

It's most likely Kawada and Kobashi, and it's boring as HELL.

[Guest Pop Culture God]

Misawa and Kawada never had a one hour draw.

 

It's most likely Kawada and Kobashi, and it's boring as HELL.

Did Kawada and Misawa ever have a one hour match? Cause I remember that in the auction page. I'll post a link soon.

[Guest wolverine]

No they didn't. It's either:

 

a) 6/3/94 and they mistakenly said it's one hour when it's really 35 minutes

 

b) Kawada vs. Kobashi 1/95 or 10/96

 

The 6/3/94 match is referred to by some "as the greatest match ever" but it's not really - at least not in my view.

[Guest Pop Culture God]

No they didn't. It's either:

 

a) 6/3/94 and they mistakenly said it's one hour when it's really 35 minutes

 

b) Kawada vs. Kobashi 1/95 or 10/96

 

The 6/3/94 match is referred to by some "as the greatest match ever" but it's not really - at least not in my view.

 

The link is right here. It's the 94 one. How can they get away with saying it's 1 hour, if it's only 35 mins?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=1575661764

[Guest cynicalprofit]

The link is right here. It's the 94 one. How can they get away with saying it's 1 hour, if it's only 35 mins?

 

Its wrestling, people lie.

[Guest Pop Culture God]

The link is right here. It's the 94 one. How can they get away with saying it's 1 hour, if it's only 35 mins?

 

Its wrestling, people lie.

Sure but that's still like a half an hour less than advertised. You'd think if this guy's selling a 1st or 2nd gen copy of a match he's seen, he'd tell everyone "Hey this is a great match but it isn't an hour."

[Guest wolverine]

Well, the commercial tape is about 50 minutes long, but the MATCH is a little over 35 minutes.

 

And if you haven't seen their previous matches, it's probably not going to seem all that great on first viewing either.

[Guest Pop Culture God]

Well, the commercial tape is about 50 minutes long, but the MATCH is a little over 35 minutes.

 

And if you haven't seen their previous matches, it's probably not going to seem all that great on first viewing either.

I wasn't planning on buying it, just curious about what you guys thought of it.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Most dealers list the Comml version of 6/3/94 as 60 minutes. Lynch does that. The match is 36 minutes. The opening introductions are around 6 minutes and the post match/locker room interviews are another 3-5. The VAP recap video is around 4 minutes.

 

Plenty of better places to get the match as well.

 

It is the best men's Pro Style singles match that I have seen. Take that for what it's worth.

 

Tim

[Guest Pop Culture God]

What is it that makes this match special? I mean what seperates it from Steamboat/Flair at Chi-Town Rumble, or Pillman/Lyger at Superbrawl II?

[Guest wolverine]

Actually, it's more along the lines of "what separates it from Jumbo-Tenryu, Jumbo-Misawa, and Hansen-Kobashi" but that's another issue.

 

It's a VERY rich match, with an intricate backstory, and it's off-the-charts on a psychological level. This is why it's crucial to see the previous matches or you will not understand it at all.

[Guest Pop Culture God]

Actually, it's more along the lines of "what separates it from Jumbo-Tenryu, Jumbo-Misawa, and Hansen-Kobashi" but that's another issue.

 

It's a VERY rich match, with an intricate backstory, and it's off-the-charts on a psychological level. This is why it's crucial to see the previous matches or you will not understand it at all.

I wasn't attempting to incite debate. However I was trying to think of ***** matches and those two came to mind.

[Guest wolverine]

It was a faulty premise, which is why I brought the issue up, but obviously did not elaborate on it.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

6/3/94 is built from 10 years of history in the AJPW promotion.

 

The match not only plays off of previous Misawa/Kawada matches but also off of the Tsuruta/Tenyru feud, as well as the Tsuruta/Misawa feud, and the Choshu's Army v AJPW battles of the 1980's.

 

It's deep.

 

Deeper than any Flair match.

 

Tim

[EL DANDY~! 0]

Flair's greatest matches were built on fifteen years of rivalry though...I mean, when he and Steamer graduated from wrestling school together, and fought each other before going their seperate ways, there was still a great rivalry between the two.

 

However, they weren't intertwined like anything having to do with Kawada and Misawa. They were a vital part for a lot of AJPW history. Not saying Flair isn't a part of NWA history, but Kawada/Misawa IS AJPW Strong Style. It's the match that made careers...

[Guest Jubuki]

Flair and Steamboat weren't extending anyone's feud or legacy other than their own with their matches, though. Misawa vs. Kawada was indeed All Japan at its heart, but it was at its heart because Jumbo & Tenryu had been there before, and Jumbo & Choshu had been there before. I don't know if there's been anything over here to even TRY to pass along that kind of tradition, let alone succeed at doing so.

[Guest Special K]

And you must remember, the guys on this puro board hoard their 5*'s. Jubuki has ONE men's single match at ***** and that's MK'94. I am personally a little more lenient, giving at some matches like Liger/Ohtani, and The '95 carny finals *****, but the guys on this board are nothing if not consistent.

[Guest Jubuki]

Two, actually, Mr. Mind Reader. Maybe three or four, if I felt the need to take context into account more heavily...like I could say Hansen/Kobashi 7/93 was, for a while, the best men's match ever, until 6/3/94 passed it. Or I could say the same for Jumbo/Funk, if I'd seen more surrounding footage. Or I could say the same about Tamura/Han 1/97 with more surrounding footage and more time to think about it.

[Guest wolverine]

I am of the belief that the ***** rating should be protected, but that theory doesn't hold a whole hell of a lot of water when I've got 14 matches that I'd give that rating to. In this case, my ratings are largely inconsistent because on some matches I’m basing it on, say, a one year old viewing, whereas on another, it was just a few weeks ago. But I'm slowly but surely going through every one of them and will try to determine if I still think it holds up. I know of the ones that are definites and will never change, but on the other hand I know I've got a bunch of borderline picks that can change at the drop of a hat. The Jumbo-Misawa rematch comes to mind, as does Liger-Sammy and the 6/96 tag match. Then there are matches that I haven’t seen in quite some time, but loved initially such as the 7/93 6-man and 1/97 Misawa-Kobashi. As I get more footage, my tastes in certain types of matches begin to change, for better or worse, I’ve yet to see. But I’m definitely looking forward to more styles I haven’t explored very thoroughly, with the possibility that more matches could reach this point.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

I don't really understand why some people are so reluctant to give out 5* matches. I mean, Dave Meltzer (The man who basically gave us this ratings system) has given out loads of 5*. I don't think it really matters, to be honest. If Jubuki has only given 1 or 2 matches 5*, while someone else has given 5 or 6, who cares? Just one guys opinion.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

The whole premise of a ***** match is to seperate it from the pack.

 

Meltzer's ratings have always been flawed. He has his favorites (Toyoda, Kobashi, Mutoh) like everyone else, but he is very SKeith'ish with his snowflakes - he gives them out but very rarely explains why.

 

Theorhetically, you could rate 6/8/90 Misawa v Jumbo *****. Then, 9/1/90 comes along. Some like that match better. So that gets *****. Then Hansen v Kobashi from 7/29/93 comes along at it gets *****. Compared to the first two, all three of those matches hold well together along the lines that they are upper regiment story matches. But then comes 6/3/94 that takes story, moves, history, etc and raises the bar to the next level. Compared to the Jumbo v Misawa matches of 1990, Misawa v Kawada raises the bar up a bunch of notches.

 

So when someone then watches 6/8/90 and 6/3/94, there is a clear difference in which one is better. 6/8 *WAS* a ***** match until Misawa v Kawada came along.

 

I think ***** matches in time frames are perfectly acceptable (with explanation and reason) but to throw out ***** just because a match hits you at this moment doesn't make much sense.

 

Tim

[Guest RickyChosyu]

If you give the rating to any match without comtemplating whether or not the match is really that good, it demeans every other match that really does deserve the rating.

 

As a fan and reading Dave's reviews, I often sought out matches he said rated as *****, but frequently became dissapointed. When I read Dave's review of Samurai/Kanemoto from BOTSJ '97 in which he said it was an easy ***** match, I expected that it was going to be the best thing I had ever seen and that it would change the way I thought about wrestling. It didn't. When the match was over, the first thing I thought was "If that's the very best that profesional wrestling has to offer, then I don't really feel like watching it anymore" because the overhype had ruined it that much. Had I just watched that without Dave's rating in the back of my head, I probably could have just enjoyed the spot fu for what it was and been happy that Sammy finally got a big win.

 

Overhype is annoying, so it's good to stay away from it.

[Guest kebab]

6/3/94 is built from 10 years of history in the AJPW promotion.

 

The match not only plays off of previous Misawa/Kawada matches but also off of the Tsuruta/Tenyru feud, as well as the Tsuruta/Misawa feud, and the Choshu's Army v AJPW battles of the 1980's.

 

It's deep.

Would you care to list the matches I should get in order to appreciate the match in full ?

 

Thanks

[Guest wolverine]

These matches of course:

 

Misawa vs. Kawada 10/21/92

Misawa vs. Kawada 3/27/93

Misawa vs. Kawada 7/29/93

 

You also should mix in:

 

Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 6/1/93

Misawa/Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue/Ogawa 7/2/93

Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 12/3/93

Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 5/21/94

 

I'd also suggest:

 

Jumbo vs. Tenryu 6/5/89

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

These matches of course:

 

Misawa vs. Kawada 10/21/92

Misawa vs. Kawada 3/27/93

Misawa vs. Kawada 7/29/93

 

You also should mix in:

 

Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 6/1/93

Misawa/Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue/Ogawa 7/2/93

Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 12/3/93

Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 5/21/94

 

I'd also suggest:

 

Jumbo vs. Tenryu 6/5/89

Don't forget Misawa/Jumbo 9/1/90 as another one that 6/3/94 builds from.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

I would also add in the following:

 

1/28/86 Tsuruta/Tenyru v Choshu/Yatsu

10/88 Tsuruta v Tenyru

4/20/91 Tsuruta/Taue/Fuchi v Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi

 

I would also suggest seeing the whole Choshu v All Japan feud to get a perspective on not only how Choshu and his gang changed the pace of AJPW, but also how Tsuruta/Tenyru were tag partners (ala Misawa/Kawada) and then went on to feud.

 

4/20/91 is the best of the great 6 man tags that they rolled out ands it gives you a good look at the different roles of each wrestler.

 

Tim