Goldberg

[Guest Brian]

I'm not going to not fault Austin for leaving. He was an employee who was out of his rights. On the other hand, he also had a persona, that was still marketable, to protect and he had carried the company on his back only to be jobbed to a mid-carder at the biggest show of the year against someone who Vince's inner circle, most of the lockerroom and Austin himself were against hiring. Plus Hall had come to Mania, the night before, drunk when he had claimed that he was unable to drink. I'm assuming austin had already worked out mopst of his problems earlier and voiced his complaints since he returned last time.

 

The Brock loss was just a hotshot match where Eddie and Benoit would have interfered. There was little upside to it for either party.

[Guest DiabloIIFreak1010]

What? Are you insane? NO MATTER WHAT...you fucking moron...you do the job you signed a contract for...if you are unhappy...you inform your employer and request a release from your contract. You don't act like a prima donna and cry on your way home because you felt neglected for the first time in years.

Wow. Your such a mark.

[Guest evenflowDDT]

What? Are you insane? NO MATTER WHAT...you fucking moron...you do the job you signed a contract for...if you are unhappy...you inform your employer and request a release from your contract. You don't act like a prima donna and cry on your way home because you felt neglected for the first time in years.

Wow. Your such a mark.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with it, how does this statement make him a mark? It's not like he's saying "OMG Austin should've just STUNNERED MCMAHON AGAIN~! That'd show him!"

[Guest Redhawk]

If you're going to get on Austin and/or Goldberg about "pouting," you also need to give the same criticism to Chris Benoit. Remember what he did in late 1999-early 2000? And you also need to throw some of that shit at Ric Flair as well, as he wasn't exactly Mr. Okay I'll Do The Job back in the day.

 

I don't see why there's all this hatred towards Goldberg? what did he ever do that was so bad?

[Guest Smell the ratings!!!]

He was just about the worst wrestler on the face of the planet, and he was all they talked about on every show.

 

Forget all this backstage shit, and Goldberg is still a really crappy wrestler who will be a semi-midcarder with a huge contract withing 2 months of them bringing him. It's like a short Big Show.

[Guest Anglesault]

I don't see why there's all this hatred towards Goldberg? what did he ever do that was so bad?

Two Words.

 

Bret Hart

[Guest Redhawk]

He was just about the worst wrestler on the face of the planet, and he was all they talked about on every show.

 

Forget all this backstage shit, and Goldberg is still a really crappy wrestler who will be a semi-midcarder with a huge contract withing 2 months of them bringing him. It's like a short Big Show.

Was he really THAT bad? Seriously, take a minute and think about it. You're acting like he NEVER EVER had a watchable match. He's had some good ones. And who else was WCW supposed to run with during that period? More Hogan?

[Guest Anglesault]

Was he really THAT bad?

Yes. And he ended Bret's career.

 

eriously, take a minute and think about it. You're acting like he NEVER EVER had a watchable match. He's had some good ones

 

One watchable one.

[Guest Redhawk]

Goldberg wishes he could do the power bit as well as Batista. Check out the OVW tapes.

 

OVW is not the big-time. Check back with me when Batista has a good match on TELEVISION. And what couldn't Goldberg do power-wise that Batista can?

 

I'll conced this one (Bradshaw), for now

 

You're acting like Bradshaw will ever get any better. If he's not better than Goldberg now, he'll never be.

 

Goldberg wishes he could be half the wrestler Golddust is.

 

He may be over, but Goldust still sucks. You know this, man. Go watch his match with RVD from No Way Out or whenever it was.

 

Jamal might seem careless in the ring, but he actually has a decent idea of how to work.

 

And how do you know this? Again, putting on a good match in OVW is easier than doing it in WWE/WCW. There's not as much pressure.

 

Not close really. Stamboli can work some wild brawls if given the opportunity.

 

But he hasn't been given the opportunity. Don't you think that's for a reason? If he were so good, he would have risen above curtain jerker in WCW or Velocity/Heat jobber in WWE.

 

Here's another that's not even close. Spike, before he gets into mega bumping style, still has a great mind when it comes to sequencing and pacing them, building off them, and just taking tons of them. And that's just his bumping. He can work some wicked brawls and does a great Morton.

 

When was the last Spike match where he didn't just get his ass kicked the entire time? Of course Goldberg can't bump as well as Spike, but Spike doesn't even have any offensive moves to compare to Goldberg.

 

Gunn's better right now. I reserve judgment for his singles work, but his tag work is all good.

 

Bullshit. Gunn is boring as all hell and you know it. And I'm sure you were one of the people calling for Gunn's head when he dropped the Almighty Benoit on his head.

 

Maybe. You never get to see Farooq work anymore

 

And why do you think that is? Maybe because he's not any good. When was his last good match?

 

It hurts me to say this but no. I think Hogan had a decent wrestling mind in there that he started showing off in the WWE this year.

 

Okay, you're sounding ridiculous here. Go watch Hogan-Angle and tell me Goldberg couldn't have done a better match with Kurt.

 

"Hugh Morrus" No.

 

Again, when was this guy's last good match?

 

Maybe, probably not. Wright was decent, and that's better than Billy Boy.

 

He was decent, and how long ago was that? He hasn't had a good match since...hell, since he was Papa Shango maybe?

 

No. Rikishi's a good big man and bumper when he's not playing the gimmick, and rubbing his BUTT around

 

But that's all Rikishi does, so you can't say he's any better than that.

 

Be serious, people. While Goldberg may not be as technically proficient as Angle or Benoit or even Edge, he brings an energy that makes his matches good. Just like The Rock. And it's not like he's some big stiff, a la Kevin Nash or Mark Henry. The only thing Goldberg lacks is the psychological acumen of a Ric Flair or someone like that. He's athletic, he's powerful, and he can take decnt bumps. Give him a break.

[Guest gwf0704]

Ok smarks. Time to face facts. The wrestling world does not revolve around what internet fans think a true superstar is, was or should be. Open your eyes people. Casual fans still know who Goldberg is. They do not know who Lesnar is. Remember, "casual fan who has disposable income" not "hard core follow wrestling every Monday/Thursday night and tape the shows." These are the people Vince wants to cater to.

 

Two words to make my point.....

 

KATIE VICK!!!!!!!!!

 

Wrestling fan is sick with the storyline as we all know its crap. Casual fan wonders what is going on and may tune in to watch. Also, we all know how talented Benoit, Guerrero, Misterio and Angle are but casual fan remembers Goldberg and Hogan. As much as internet fan wants to see Benoit main event agains Angle at a pay per view most fans could care less. That is by they hired Steiner, Hogan, Flair. Name value. Kidman can wrestle. Casual fan could give a fuck!!

 

Its a losing battle. Casual fan = money = Goldberg/Nash/Hogan/Steiner

 

Internet fan = disdain. Trust me, I am a Goldberg mark, but I am also in agreement with the majority of you that I would rather see Storm vs Guerrero at least once, but Vinnie only listens to one thing. The money....

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

"Who's Goldberg a better wrestler than? Let's see..."

 

Oh boy, this should be fun.

 

"Batista"

 

No better or worse, and has more potential.

 

"Bradshaw"

 

About as bad, maybe a bit worse than Goldberg.

 

"Goldust"

 

A far superior worker to Goldberg in every way possible, his current tag run proves it.

 

"Jamal"

 

Probably about the same, hasn't shown anything.

 

"Johnny Stamboli"

 

Better than Goldberg in WCW most of the time.

 

"Rosie"

 

See Jamal.

 

"Spike Dudley"

 

A far better wrestler and bumper.

 

"Big Show"

 

Sucks more now, at one time was better than Goldberg.

 

"Billy Gunn"

 

A good tag team wrestler, underrated net whipping boy.

 

"Chuck Palumbo"

 

A good brawler who has shown good skills in WCW and with Billy.

 

"Faarooq"

 

Great brawler back in the day, age has reduced him to sub-Goldy levels.

 

"Hulk Hogan"

 

A far smarter worker than Goldberg, even now, and puts a lot more effort into his matches. Way more ***ish stuff too.

 

"Hugh Morrus"

 

Decent, about at Goldberg's level.

 

"Godfather"

 

Definitely worse than Goldberg.

 

"Mark Henry"

 

Ditto.

 

"Rikishi"

 

Has had some good matches and has good technique when not focusing on the ass.

 

"Undertaker"

 

Way better than Goldberg, both now and career-wise.

 

"Who can Goldberg draw with? (If it's booked right, of course)"

 

Good booking for Goldberg means Streak or Bust.

 

"Booker T"

 

Booker T has never drawn with anyone, and certainly will not with Goldberg, or WCW would have done it.

 

"Chris Jericho"

 

Why, because smarks remember their "feud" from 4 years ago and the politics behind it?

 

"Ric Flair"

 

Flair means nothing now, and no one will ever pay specifically to watch him.

 

"RVD"

 

You have to be joking, RVD will draw against guys like Rock and Michaels and that's it.

 

"Shawn Michaels"

 

Yeah, because Sid vs. Shawn and Diesel vs. Shawn were such a big draws...

 

"Undertaker"

 

Taker has noo drawing power left, and last I checked, 0+0=0.

 

"The Rock"

 

It would all be based on the Rock, and Goldberg would draw less than at least a half-dozen potential Rock matches.

 

"Kurt Angle"

 

Goldberg is not some great "amateur shooter" and so this has no appeal, did Angle vs. Undertaker draw while I was sleeping?

 

"Brock Lesnar"

 

Big scary giants collide~!, this will be a huge dr...oh wait, Sid vs. Goldberg didn't draw shit, ditto Steiner vs. Goldberg.

 

"Hulk Hogan"

 

4 years ago this would have drawn, now it's a worthless match.

 

"Triple H"

 

Card convention brawls don't translate to wrestling buys unless you are some mark for stupid pseudo-shoot matches. Maybe Inoki will try to draw with this match then...

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Listen, I'm taking off for Vegas in 3 hours, but AS, you are behind the times.

 

Austin carried the company on his back in 99, not 2001. However, much of the universe revolved around Stone Cold because of it, but that probably couldn't be helped.

 

Look at 99's matches:

 

January: Austin/McMahon in the Royal Rumble!

Feburary: Austin/McMahon in the cage!

March: Austin wins the title

April: Austin beats Rock two months in a row (my question: WHY?)

May: Crazy month, between the CorpMinistry and Owen's deathbump.

June: Austin/Taker First Blood

August: Austin feuds with HHH and actually jobs clean

September: Okay, this was more about HHH than Austin

October: Austin again feuds with HHH and jobs clean again. You can smell his draw slowly going away.

November:Hit and run, but did his part in hyping up the show all month long.

December: It's all about 'da gammmmeeeuuuh.

 

ROCK was the guy who carried the company through 2001. Aside from the Mummy Returns leave, he was the de-facto guy for much of the year. Sure, Austin was massive over with the "WHAT?" thing, but anyone who followed the character for several years could see it was becoming a parody of itself.

[Guest Brian]

"OVW is not the big-time. Check back with me when Batista has a good match on TELEVISION. And what couldn't Goldberg do power-wise that Batista can?"

 

What's your point. Because you do something in one place it can't happen in another. Goldberg has been utter trash in Japan, failing to draw despite being a gaijin who supposedly has this hhuge following waiting to react here. You'd think something laong those lines would go over huge, but it's Bob Sapp who ends up filling eight percent more of the Dome.

 

 

"He may be over, but Goldust still sucks. You know this, man. Go watch his match with RVD from No Way Out or whenever it was."

 

Golddust is in basically the same position Regal is in right now, only Runnels isn't as good as him. He's been relegated to play sidekick. But what about Goldberg would make him better? Runnels has always had the ability to go out and do Texas style brawl with psychology, something Goldberg, if he cared, could only dream of. Goldberg relegated to throwing suplexes, grabbing holds with little meaning, and hitting the spear and jackhammer.

 

"And how do you know this? Again, putting on a good match in OVW is easier than doing it in WWE/WCW. There's not as much pressure."

 

And I ask again, how much pressure does a draw like Goldie have in Japan where he's failed to draw? And yet, he still can't put on what they have done in OVW. Performing on the big stage is vastly overrated; and the pressure is just the constraints of the style.

 

"But he hasn't been given the opportunity. Don't you think that's for a reason? If he were so good, he would have risen above curtain jerker in WCW or Velocity/Heat jobber in WWE."

 

If Daniels, Ki, and Am Dragon were so good, wouldn't they be employed by the WWE by now? If Jaime Knoble's so good, why isn't he wrestling every pay per view. If Benoit, angle, and Guerrero are so good, why aren't they feuding over the world title.

 

"When was the last Spike match where he didn't just get his ass kicked the entire time? Of course Goldberg can't bump as well as Spike, but Spike doesn't even have any offensive moves to compare to Goldberg."

 

Offensive moves mean shit if you don't know how to use them. Spike can tell a storyline is his bumping alone, and if you check out his late nineties APW work, you can definately see a lucha influenced offense against guys like Grimes.

 

 

"Bullshit. Gunn is boring as all hell and you know it. And I'm sure you were one of the people calling for Gunn's head when he dropped the Almighty Benoit on his head."

 

Dropping Benoit was far in the past, and when Gunn is in his element Goldberg just doesn't compare. Gunn's work has increased tenfold and he's done a great job bumping and selling, plus his offense has gotten far more credibl-looking while still snug.

 

"Okay, you're sounding ridiculous here. Go watch Hogan-Angle and tell me Goldberg couldn't have done a better match with Kurt."

 

Hogan's wrestled worlds above where he was in WCW and his mindset has totally been in Japan. He's brough a more fluent build to his matches, if only he had the body to pull it off. I hate to give the guy credit, but he deserves some. Goldie has no idea how to work a match, Hogan does.

 

"Be serious, people. While Goldberg may not be as technically proficient as Angle or Benoit or even Edge, he brings an energy that makes his matches good. Just like The Rock. And it's not like he's some big stiff, a la Kevin Nash or Mark Henry. The only thing Goldberg lacks is the psychological acumen of a Ric Flair or someone like that. He's athletic, he's powerful, and he can take decnt bumps. Give him a break."

 

He has no idea how to put together a match, he's proven to be dangerous in a match, and his selling is horrid. Energy doesn't make matches good, it makes them watchable. Goldie has never, ever been an even decent worker; in the last three years he's had all of one decent match. One. <ost of the guys who I've given some credit have had a match that somewhat compares to the DDP match, or have proven that they have the ability to put one on given the opportunity. If you don't believe me, seek out clips of his Japan work.

 

And all this drawing shit is the bottom. Goldberg is not a draw. He never was. And he definately has proven he isn't now. He's too far removed and the only hope is that a few fans who've never seen the last two years of WWE television will reminisce about some guy with an athletic background and an undefeated streak (sound familiar?) and decide to tune in, forgetting how Goldberg like Steiner was at the front of a dying WCW. Build for the future, don't stay in the past.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Funny, if Goldberg is such a "huge ratings draw" then how was Nitro doing deplorable ratings with him as the focus? If he's such a strong draw for pay per views, why was no one buying them even though he was in the main event? If he's such a superstar, why were his book sales so low?

 

It's not 1998 anymore, guys. Four years have passed since that guy was any kind of difference maker in ratings, buy rates, or main stream media. Time to wake up and stop worrying about a guy who never should have entered our business to begin with, and start worrying about building a good foundation for a wrestling company that fans can enjoy.

 

Did anyone consider that these "ratings grabber" storylines are why they're in so much trouble to begin with? Ridiculous.

[Guest Anglesault]

ROCK was the guy who carried the company through 2001.

Who? OH! You mean the guy who was out for a good portion of 2001 filming movies while Autin went out there on TV week in and week out. Okay.l

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Don't expect logic out of a guy who apparently didn't watch WWF TV from Wrestlemania until Survivor Series where Austin was completely re-inventing his character and making the WWE watchable because of it.

[Guest Anglesault]

Honestly, with injuries and Hollywood, Austin, Angle, and Jericho were the only one's who made it the whole year. Jericho was a mess up until September, and Angle just was not Austin.

[Guest Brian]

Austin didn't even carry the company alone in 1999. the first half was Austin/McMahon feud that was still red-hot, the latter half was a whole lotta Rock with a little HHH. But in 2001 it was all Austin carrying the company.

[Guest The Hamburglar]

Funny, I thought 2001 was the year the WWF's ratings went down the shitter. I liked Austin's heel run and loved his ring-work, but he did fuck-all for business at that time. And given that as soon as he turned face again he went into one of the most sudden, pathetic degenerations I've ever seen in terms of working decent matches, I hardly consider Austin hard done by in his spot at Mania. He was just sore that for once Rock was actually getting the win in the big match, something that Rock barely ever manages to do when Austin is around. I'm also still sore that people refuse to admit that it was Austin who totally fucked up Jericho's title reign rather than Triple H. Austin made Jericho look like a complete loser bitch the week prior to Vengeance, wouldn't job even half-cleanly at Vengeance itself, and proceeded to make Jericho look like a worthless nonentity during their No Way Out feud which lead to another match where Jericho could only beat Austin via mass interference. Austin wrecked Jericho's title run - Triple H just finished it off, in the process getting himself sucked into a totally shitty dead storyline.

 

But...despite the fact that Austin is pretty much a politicing, now-debatable as a draw, sometimes lazy shit...he still should have main evented Wrestlemania. Not because he deserved to, but because it made sense. The WWF had two rock solid feuds for heel Austin, and they refused to go through on either. Rock-Austin rematch at Summerslam fucking wrote itself. Triple H comeback as mega-face to meet mega-heel Austin at Wrestlemani fucking wrote itself. Why they didn't do either is beyond me.

[Guest Anglesault]

Funny, I thought 2001 was the year the WWF's ratings went down the shitter. I liked Austin's heel run and loved his ring-work, but he did fuck-all for business at that time.

Now take Austin out of the picture, and look at the company in 2001. It's bad enough as it is without Austin.

[Guest Brian]

Austin as a heel without a good face isn't supposed to draw. all their face pushes either failed or were aborted. The easily set up Triple H face push was switched. Undertaker/Kane blew chuncks. Benoit and Jericho stabilized the ratings but Benoit's injury caused panis. Angle's face run ultimately failed, and was aborted. When Triple H was a heel, he had rock to play off of and to a lesser extent, Jericho.

 

Austin was basically depushed from Stage 1 of his face run. The Booker feud was wretchedly booked. He was jobbed to Jericho twice to put over Triple H's title win. He was used to put over the NWO. Who ever jobbed to Jericho cleanly when he became a full fledged heel? The closest thing was Rock at No Mercy, but Jericho was still a tweener and it wasn't clean.

 

It's all the booking's fault really. Not only did they drop the ball on Jericho's title reign but failed to capitalize on the Triple H comeback. Booking made mistakes, and if Austin had that much pull he would have not left after Mania. They dropped the ball on Rock/Austin. They blew Angle's face run. They dropped the ball on the InVasion. There were problems all around.

 

RAW ratings fell after Austin left. Buyrates and ratings fell after he turned heel. Rock made little of an impact in the ratings.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

Austin's heel turn was the one good thing in 2001 after Wrestlemania X-7, with the exception of the period between Judgment Day and King of the Ring, which was awesome.

 

Ratings dropped because everything else sucked.

[Guest Pop Culture God]

I don't see why there's all this hatred towards Goldberg? what did he ever do that was so bad?

Two Words.

 

Bret Hart

Wow, for the first time, I agree with AS. Goldberg ending Hart's career with a kick is pretty inexcusable. Hogan may suck but at least he isn't stiffer than Vader.

[Guest Pop Culture God]

Funny, if Goldberg is such a "huge ratings draw" then how was Nitro doing deplorable ratings with him as the focus? If he's such a strong draw for pay per views, why was no one buying them even though he was in the main event? If he's such a superstar, why were his book sales so low?

 

It's not 1998 anymore, guys. Four years have passed since that guy was any kind of difference maker in ratings, buy rates, or main stream media. Time to wake up and stop worrying about a guy who never should have entered our business to begin with, and start worrying about building a good foundation for a wrestling company that fans can enjoy.

 

Did anyone consider that these "ratings grabber" storylines are why they're in so much trouble to begin with? Ridiculous.

WCW killed itself with Starrcade 97, after that it was the point of no return. Any other conclusion is just dumb. Goldberg kept WCW competitive for a while, but after Starrcade 98 he lost all his momentum.

 

 

Hogan and Nash killed WCW.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

Goldberg makes sense, I can't see the morale problem, If he's drawing ratings and house show attendances are up then everyone's making money. Theres a few feuds he could draw in Goldberg v Rock/Austin/Brock/Angle/Jericho/HHH/HBK would all draw huge buyrates. The only problem is his real life rivalry with the aforemention Hunter

The morale problem comes from his attitude. He pissed a lot of people off in WCW in the locker room. He's a jackass.

Yeah but who isn't? More or less everyone in the locker room sounds like an asshole to me

[Guest Banky]

Yeah but who isn't? More or less everyone in the locker room sounds like an asshole to me

I don't think everyone are jackasses, they are all just a bunch of whining backstabbing little babies.

[Guest Human Fly]

The only reason Goldberg is even being talked about right now is because he got one of the greatest pushes ever (if not the greatest). He was never over again like he was around the time he won the World Title. It boggles my mind that WCW threw away his title win on free TV. If handled properly that could've drawn well.

 

I do think that Goldberg would have a poor effect on the locker room also. He has heat with many guys, and the way things are right now I don't think it's worth the risk. If they bring Goldberg in they might as well bring Shane Douglas in too and stick them in the Raw locker room with HBK, HHH, Jericho, and Steiner.