Do you realize....

[Guest Dmann2000]

This is by no means meant to excuse the WWE's current sub-par booking and lack of engaging storylines. But lets face facts. I've bee a Pro wrestling fan since Feb. 89 when Randy savage went apeshit on Hulk Hogan over Elizabeth. In the almost 14 years as a fan I've bought over 200 videos, seen 20+ live shows. Attended RAW, Smackdown, Sunday Night Heat, Nitro, ECW on TNN, 2 Pillman shows, 4 PPVs Bought action figures, posters, magazines, books, audio CDs, video games, shirts hell I even have a belt (granted I won that in an auction but it was at an event).

 

Is the currently malaise making me regret the near 14 years of my life I've invested in this thing, this "sports entertainment", this, this wrestling? Does necrophelia and Big Show pushes make me want to turn away in disgust and never look back? what it all boils down to is, Is it even all worth it?

 

Yes, yes it is.

 

I realize I must actually care about this business. And when I have criticisms (which truthfully aren't as vicious or angry as others here) I can only figure its because I know how good they can be. I don't want Vince McMahon or the WWE to fail. Because when he succeeds, it comes across real well. Remmember these matches:

 

Steamboat vs Savage

Warrior vs Hogan

Hart vs Bulldog

Michaels vs Ramon

Austin vs Hart

Hardyz vs Edge & Christian

Angle vs Rock

Austin vs Rock

Angle vs Benoit

Jericho vs Benoit

Jericho vs Rock

Edge/Rey vs Angle/Benoit

 

Remmember these fueds:

 

Hogan vs Orndorf

Savage vs Roberts

Hart vs Hart

Canada vs USA

Austin vs McMahon

Rock vs Foley

HHH vs Foley

 

And I know that's just scratching the surface. Sure it was about 2 years ago that this downward spiral began. But something's going to click. And even if nothing ever does again (which I doubt), I look back and I can say it was time well spent.

[Guest goodhelmet]

i think you bring up some decent points but i think that the reason some of us even care about the product or direction of the fed today is because of the great moments of the past. i also realize that if the fed did go under, there are enoughwrestling alternatives to satisfy me. i truly believe there is a wrestling life after wwe.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

I don't. I'm not adventurous enough or willing to invest money in tapes from far-off lands or from here that I might be able to talk to a grand total of five other dudes about. This company I can talk about with pretty much anyone I run into.

 

Fo sheez,

Kotzenjunge

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I think most people are pissed because:

 

1. It's the only game in town

 

2. They have the greatest wealth of talent EVER

 

3. They keep doing the opposite of what fans want.

 

Brock Lesnar is the opitome of that little gem of a problem.

 

I like Brock now...but his push represented the WWE deciding for the fans again...and you'd think by now that they'd realize that isn't the way it works.

[Guest goodhelmet]

kotz-

 

that may be true but by just having a small fraction of old wwe shows and a little bit of puro, i have increased my tape collection exponentially in the last couple of months. i mean, 20 tapes turned into 200 real quick!!! plus, while we may discuss wwe with the regular joe shmoe, who cares? most of THEM think wrestling is ghey anyway. i want to talk wrestling with wrestling fansand there is more to wrestling than just wwe as the nwa, roh, puro and other feds indicate.

 

bps-

 

points 1-3 are right on but even you have to admit that as the #1 nwa:tna mark, that there are alternatives and if vinnie's little empire dies, there will be a wrestling uprising somewhere else.

 

as for liking brock.. when did that happen? was it the fact that he was the first person to get an entertaining match out of UT since rvd? was it when for a few brief minutes in the rey match, you realized he had oodles of more talent than 3/4 of the hosses? is it because despite the fact he was given the belt at an inopportune time, he has done the most with the opportunity where other guys put in the same position have done nothing?

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

"points 1-3 are right on but even you have to admit that as the #1 nwa:tna mark, that there are alternatives and if vinnie's little empire dies, there will be a wrestling uprising somewhere else. "

 

There are alternatives...but none of them are free and on 4 days a week.

 

 

 

 

"as for liking brock.. when did that happen? was it the fact that he was the first person to get an entertaining match out of UT since rvd? was it when for a few brief minutes in the rey match, you realized he had oodles of more talent than 3/4 of the hosses? is it because despite the fact he was given the belt at an inopportune time, he has done the most with the opportunity where other guys put in the same position have done nothing?"

 

 

It was a combination of his interaction with Heyman, knowing that Hogan's last match might very well be Lesnar crushing him, the Taker match exceeding anything I could have ever imagined and the booking of Lesnar against the people I absolutely hate (Taker and Show)

 

You can only watch so many staredowns with Taker and Show before you have to start rooting for him.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

You know...I've just now realized how to put into words my problem with WWE.

 

Let's say that they decided to unify the belts at WrestlMania.

 

And Brock was still WWE Champion and RVD was RAW champion.

 

Now...let's say that fans are absolutley rabid over this main event with RVD the big fan favorite getting the shot to be undisputed champion and finally hand Brock a loss.

 

I mean ratings are up, signs in the crowd all say Undisputed Dude...the whole deal.

 

You know why I hate WWE?

 

Becuase HHH beats RVD at No Way Out to take the spot for himself.

[Guest Dmann2000]

Kinda curious, but how would I go about becoming a member?

[Guest goodhelmet]

what do you mean dmann?

[Guest DJ Jeff]

I first started watching the WWE back in 1998, right after Austin won the WWE Title at Wrestlemania 14. Back then, watching the WWE was a fad. Then in late 2000, the fad kinda wore off, and alot of the fans that tuned in while the WWE was the "in" thing to watch, stopped watching. The plus side is that the WWE gained more fans who continue watching to this day and won't stop watching, like myself. Now, the reason I won't stop watching is pretty much the same reason everyone else won't stop watching. We believe that it will improve eventually. If the WWE did go out of business, there would be another wrestling fed that would come along, and take the WWE's spotlight, ie. the NWA:TNA.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

I like Brock now...but his push represented the WWE deciding for the fans again...and you'd think by now that they'd realize that isn't the way it works.

That's pretty much how HHH got his push. A bit of a first. "We're not going to main event this guy because the fans want it. We're going to push him because the fans only put over who we tell them to put over, and thus we can put over anybody."

 

Although, I guess they did try the same thing with Yoko and Lex.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Fans seemed to want Luger before SummerSlam 93.

 

Of course Yoko was champion at the time...so take that for nothing.

[Guest Dmann2000]

Nevermind Goodhelmet, I wasn't thinking at that moment.

 

Back to the topic at hand. I agree that there is a life post WWE, especilly if the WWE were to go under. There'd be this huge emergence of regional territories. Tape trading would sky rocket. McMahon would probablt finally start selling tapes of all the wrestling he's ammassed, just to make back money. Come to think of it the end of the WWE wouldn't be a BAD thin, it'd be a GOOD thing (stated with the knowledge that in reality the WWE will still be around for a looooong time, I just know it will)

[Guest Dmann2000]

Should Luger have won at SummerSlam? I mean, they probably pushed the match too soon. Fuji and Cornette should've put challenger after challenger in front of Lex until it was unavoidable that he'd get the shot, say at Survivor Series.

 

Of course none of THAT would've happened hat Hogan had the balls to job to Bret Hart

 

But that's another topic all together

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Wasn't Luger supposed to win that title (either then or at Mania) but Vince got pissed at him and changed it?

 

I don't remember the story.

 

In short...you shouldn't put a man on a bus and drive it around the US unless he's going to win the title

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

No. Vince wanted to delay the title win by longer, but fans didn't care. The result was Yoko lost by countout and red white and blue streamers fell around the ring and the whole lockeroom came out to congratulate Lex on his screwy win.

 

By the time Royal Rumble came around, fans were fed up, and they did the Bret/Lex "cheer for who you want to win" thing, finally letting the crowd decide.

[Guest Dmann2000]

Anyone hear actually see the Lex Express and...*gasp*...sign the petition?

 

And bps, the story goes Luger was going to win at WrestleMania X from Yoko, but then blabbed about it the night before while drunk in a bar and a reporter overheard it and printed the story the next day thus necessitating the change.

 

But at the end it was going to go straight to Bret anyway, so this didn't have any major long term ramifications that I know of.

[Guest Ravenbomb]

has Brock lost a match yet?

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Raven- Brock hasn't gotten pinned or submitted, but he lost to RVD a couple times

 

Dmann- I was so pissed that Luger didn't win. Storyline wise it would have made far more sense to have Luger vs. Hart to see who was the better man, considering the Rumble finish left that question hanging.

[Guest goodhelmet]

has Brock lost a match yet?

only by dq to the hardys i believe.

[Guest Dmann2000]

Dmann- I was so pissed that Luger didn't win. Storyline wise it would have made far more sense to have Luger vs. Hart to see who was the better man, considering the Rumble finish left that question hanging.

Then you can blame it all on liquor and Luger, if the legend is to be believed

[Guest ISportsFan]

Dmann- I was so pissed that Luger didn't win.  Storyline wise it would have made far more sense to have Luger vs. Hart to see who was the better man, considering the Rumble finish left that question hanging.

Then you can blame it all on liquor and Luger, if the legend is to be believed

It also would have made sense from a workrate perspective: Yoko in TWO matches, or Luger wrestling again...

 

Now, I know Luger isn't exactly Flair or Steamboat or anybody good or anything, but he's in better shape than Yokozuna EVER was.

 

Jason

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

I like Brock now...but his push represented the WWE deciding for the fans again...and you'd think by now that they'd realize that isn't the way it works.

I agree 100% with this.

 

I don't mind Brock, but the whole "Lesnar is like Austin" crap Jim Ross was spewing on his latest Hoss Report is BS. Lesnar is not the next Austin, and there's a 99.99997% chance that he will never BE the next Austin. WWE, with very rare exceptions, always conditions their fans to think what they want them to think. Only once in a blue moon does it backfire on them (Bubba Ray).

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Oh that shit bothered me too.

 

"we'll let the fans decide like the did with Austin"

 

Um...what?

 

Austin got over as a face because people were orgasming every time he showed up.

 

Brock is being booked against BIG SHOW, who is beating faces and throwing them off of things.

 

Yeah...crowd has a lot of say in this one.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

Austin was the key to a resurgance. House shows began filling up again, people were tuning in en masse for his segments, he got people talking. What were the stats on his "3:16" t-shirt? One sold every x seconds?

 

Brock is the focal point of a company that draws less than 5000 people to any given house show. Only a handful of times has he outpopped most of the roster. And from what I see, his T-shirt isn't exactly flying off the shelves. He better look at what happened to Lex Luger post-WM X and think.

[Guest Trivia247]

There were alot of good points made here....but wanna focus on this.

 

3. They keep doing the opposite of what fans want.

 

For some reason McMahon has stopped listening to us. It could be simply because or Pride, or Ego. Maybe its him simply not paying attention anymore and he is just rubberstamping things HHH or Steph or Heyman are doing. Or maybe...just maybe, the WWE doesn't truly like us as fans.

 

Perhaps there is a sense that we Smarks are irritants and Not true Fans, We demand to much of these people and we are pushy obnoxious? And the TRUE fans are those Gaggle of Catch Phrase speaking Sign waving Shirt buying Marks. We've heard alot of wrestlers over the years address us unfavorably on the air. Trying to separate us from the fans. Maybe McMahon thinks if he can Demonize us with these bad angles he could claim he was doing the Opposite of what we want just to make us leave. Because we aren't the true fans. Maybe he wants to be proven Right over us? He doesn't want our opinions our suggestions...

 

Its not like we got great representations in the Smark lands here. People the WWE sees aren't people like me or TheDames or bps or any of us. The people they see are the Colluminists or the people who Obnoxiously demands wrestlers to wrestle this way. Or Ask in the midst of Marks why is one person pushed over another. A Few bad apples amongst us is what they see, and assume we are all like that.

 

We are fans, some of us been fans for Decades it seems. Im nearly my 20th year of watching wrestling. I've seen the ups and downs of Hulkamania, to the New Generation, too DX too Attitude. Even as just a Lowly fan who hasn't taken a Piledriver... I Still believe I know when something is Great or Good and something which is Utter SHIT!

And lately its been the Shit thats been our problem.

 

Vince, stop trying to fight us. We might know whats "Best for the business" But we Damn know that Necrophilla or giving HHH full control isn't. We aren't trying to do a Coup or anything we are just making suggestions. You got the best Troop of talent you ever had at any age.

 

80's who was good... Savage, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, British Bulldogs two of which wasn't developed yet

 

90's who we got, Shawn Michaels Bret Hart, Owen Hart, etc

 

2000 + we got Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit Chris Jericho Lance Storm, Eddie Guerrero, RVD, Rey Mystero, Edge, Christian... and even to add a decent old school flavor, you got Ric Flair, and William Regal running around.

 

You got the tools, stop misusing them. Don't have to like us to agree with us. give us a ear and give a listen. This is the entertainment we Love, we wouldn't wanna fuck it up... Why do you?

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Austin got over as a face because people were orgasming every time he showed up.

Austin got over as a face because he started beating up crappy wrestlers and the fans started liking him. Beat up the Doinks and Repo Men of the world, and let loose some "controversial" profanity at the Slammies, and all the fans over age 12 who feel insulted by the Hulkamania shit of the past decade will start to cheer for you.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

The downfall of Luger can be directly attributed to not winning the title at Summerslam. I speak for myself, but I know several people who feel the same way. I was a fan of Luger prior to Summerslam, but after that loss (I consider not winning a title a loss) and especially after Perfect lost earlier, I completely turned my frustration on Luger. I really started hating him after he won the Royal Rumble even though he didn't deserve it (he was eliminated before Bret), and when he still failed to beat Yoko I basically thought of him as a JTTS (like Tito Santana) and just didn't care for him one way or another. Summerslam was the reason Luger failed in the WWF.

 

BTW, to answer the question. I quit watching RAW a few months ago and won't even try it again until after MNF is over for the year, but Smackdown is the best it has ever been with the exception of June 2001. They even have me caring about Big Show now, which is something that hasn't happened since he was in the Friendly Coalition.

[Guest The Hamburglar]

A point, goodhelmet; you talk of these other avenues, but from what I'm led to believe wrestling is on a quality downswing all over the shop. I read that men's wrestling in Japan is pretty much shit right now, particularly the once great AJPW, and the indies are saturated with spot workers unable to string coherent matches together. I don't care for TNA and I'm never going to spend money on tapes anyway, particularly with living in Britain as I do. So really, I hope for the WWE to increase in quality rather than go bust, because Smackdown gives me a lot of entertainment.

[Guest goodhelmet]

i'll agree with you on the puro, but the advantage of buying tapes and whatnot is that after some investigation, you can weed out the good from the bad and there are plenty of people to provide you with the goods.

 

as for the indys, look at the dvdvr 500 thread to get my thoughts on what i think of indy workers.

 

trust me bro. you don't watch wresling for a better part of 20 years and just walk awa from it. there are alternatives. how committed you are to seeking them out is up to you.