MSN.com posts bullshit article on marijuana

[Guest MarvinisaLunatic]

The whole "Lets legalize marijuana" argument is quite possibly one of the stupidest arguments I have ever heard. Im sorry if I don't see the logic in it.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Read my previous post and I believe I summed up the logic of the statement very well.

[Guest MarvinisaLunatic]

You're absolutely right. Neither one of us has all the facts, it's simply a matter of opinion right now. Either one of us could be right, and I'm sorry if I came off as sounding like I know something about which I probably don't have a great grasp. No, i wasn't a Columbian drug lord in my past life

 

However, I think even getting the initiative on the ballot was a major step towards legalization and very soon, it will come up on more than just one ballot... and eventually, when the public is informed of the potential profit resulting from legalization, they will go for it.

 

Frankly, I stated my views on it... I, by no means, support the consumption of marijuana. However, if no government regulation is gonna curtail the use anyway and the consequences of legalization is minimal (the product only harms people as much as drinking and smoking tobacco combined, really), you might as well make a profit off of the God-forsaken habit.

No one is going to see the benefits of making money of people's drug habits. If anything, leaglization of will lead to higher costs in healthcare and more lawsuits similar to those against the tobacco industry.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Subtract the costs of the drug war, add tax money on marijuana and take into account we don't have nationalized health care.

 

Massive funding for other, more needed programs.

[Guest LooseCannon]

Maybe you're happy that the government spends your tax dollars keeping people imprisoned for smoking marijuana, and spending your tax dollars building more prisons to house them, and spending your tax dollars catching and prosecuting people for possessing marijuana. It adds up to quite a bit of money, and it is money that could be spent on a lot of other things. There *are* substantial economic costs associated with this failing prohibition of marijuana. But there are non-economic costs as well. Crimes represent a serious breach of societal norms. When we stigmatize someone as a criminal we, as a society, are strongly condemning their behavior, and so it's usually for behavior that we find particularly reprehensible. This function is undermined when a large portion of society views this so-called crime as not only not a crime, but relatively harmless. When we use the criminal law to prohibit behavior that is not truly deviant against people who many believe are not truly deserving of sanction, society's respect for the criminal law is undermined, and the stigma attached to being a criminal dissipates. And if you look at attitudes today compared with 25-30 years ago, when the drug war first became a priority, you will see that that has happened. To me this is the biggest cost of this failing endeavor and it's a non-economic one. And that's on top of the billions of dollars wasted. On top of the hours that the FBI and local police officers have wasted. On top of the time judges and lawyers have wasted. And on top of the time the convicted have wasted rotting in jail when they could have been in the labor force being productive members of society, and in some cases supporting their families. But maybe it's all worth it, because people like you don't think that anyone should have the freedom to decide for themselves whether or not they want to put a chemical in their body.

 

Those are the cons, so if you don't mind, perhaps you could articulate the benefits and then we can decide if it's a stupid argument or not. Cause I'm sorry, I just don't see the logic in it.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

I'm probably not as passionate as you, LooseCannon, but I look at it this way:

 

Let the people have their soma, we'll profit from it. Perhaps legalization will let us help our failing school system with something other than vouchers to ignore the actual problems.

 

That's another debate, though

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Also, there's just no way anybody could smoke a pack of joints in one day. Anybody that's ever smoked marijuana can tell you that.

 

I guarantee you I could smoke 20 joints in one day. I don't get tired and retarded from weed.

 

Legal or not, I'm going to keep smoking it in the privacy of my own home. If the cops kick down my door to bust a stoner that isn't hurting anyone, well, shit happens.

[Guest Some Guy]

My theory on the pricing of weed if legalized is this:

The initial price beats the dealers but the weed won't be quite as good. Then the taxes will be hiked to a point where it is more expensive to buy (inferior) weed legally and then the black market will open back up.

I'm sure it weed was legal there would be small shops where one could get all types of pot but I don't think Camel and Marlboro are going to put out the top of the line stuff, look at the tobacco that they use for cigarettes for reference.

For this to work as people have decribed the Gov't has to keep the taxes relatively low so they can beat the price of the dealers. Why pay more to get it legally when you can get it cheaper from the same guy you used forever?

[Guest LooseCannon]

I thought about that and I think the argument is somewhat persuasive, but a lot depends on how the scheme is set up and how it is regulated after it's legalized. Plus if unofficial distribution remains illegal, I think people will have an incentive to pay a little more to make a legal purchase rather than risk arrest, but I don't know. But I do think a lot people might just grow their own or buy off their old dealer, so I don't know how much tax revenue would be raised by legalizing it. But then again, just about everything that is sold, is sold "on the books," and taxes are paid on it. I think after the dust settles, marijuana will end up the same way.

[Guest snuffbox]

According to reliable sources including the FBI Uniform Crime Report, the total annual cost of the United States drug prohibition is $50 billion.

 

One can only imagine how far a fraction of that bill could go towards our homeless situation, impoverished children, or security. Of course the security will be provided by the Homeland Security Act, a bill that will allow the Pentagon to house a database on EVERY American on EVERYTHING that they do, every bill of sale, internet site visited, email sent, bank accounts, magazine subscriptions, and the like. Ah, the land of the free! But that should most definitly be another be another forum.

 

You have to understand that keeping marijuana illegal is big money for polititians. All the sniffing dogs, all the DEA agents, all the vans, the equipment, the guns, and the helicopters. Its billions of dollars for polititians and their supporters and friends. There are more than 200 million Americans, and since only a fraction thereof care to vote, our 'leaders' or 'freedom perverts' feel more than welcome to do as they please with our tax money. That is why on 9-11 more than 3,000 people died in vain, its become nothing more than a vehicle for the likes of George Bush and John Ashcroft.

 

Yes, smoking marijuana is dangerous for ones health. So is football. So is walking down the street. Off the top of my head I can think of more deaths related to fotball or crossing the street than smoking herb. You just dont hear a whole lot of reports of pot overdoses, or marijuana induced violence do you?

 

A legal, taxed, well thought out plan for the legalization of marijuana would provide enormous benefits to the United States-

 

*Medicinal uses, this is a recognized fact for those with heads removed from their anus. It provides pain relief for those with serious injuries, or illness. And is not physically addictive like painkillers such as Oxycontin or Vicodin.

*Psychologically, people with a 'chip on their shoulder', just generally angered or troubled, have smoked, and seen incredible changes on their outlook on life. Marijuana is not heroin or crack cocaine or alcohol. It does not induce anger or violent thoughts. It has a legit, recognized calming effect.

*Lower crime, government sponsered marijuana sales would eliminate the illegal, and gangster influence. Why would anybody buy from a dealer, which would remain illegal, when they could buy quality product at a store, knowing its not laced with anything, and knowing they wont be mugged?

*The ridiculous ammount of money spent so that polititians dont have to admit that theyre wrong can be freed up to be spent on actually helping the American people.

*Marijuana sales would be taxed, thus creating more revenue for uses beneficial to the American people.

*Prisons can actually house murderers and rapists for once, not the nonviolent potheads. Also, stemming overcrowding, and ending the tabboo over the heads of honest people, who just enjoy a relatively safe high.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

You just dont hear a whole lot of reports of pot overdoses

 

That's because it's never happened. Ever.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Really? Can you back that up?

[Guest snuffbox]

The Drug Awareness Warning Network Annual Report, published by the US federal government contains a statistical compilation of all drug deaths which occur in the United States. According to this report, there has never been a death recorded from the use of marijuana by natural causes. No one knows the total number of deaths caused by enforcement of marijuana prohibition laws.

 

How many times has somebody died from alcohol poisoning? Sporting or hunting or recreational injuries and accidents? Automobile crashes? Should these be illegal too? They certainly seem to be more dangerous then herb, at least in this regard.

 

Im really sorry here people, but its impossible to argue the benefits of marijuana prohibition. It is completely ridiculous, and the recognized dangers of smoke injestion is far outweighed by the numerous benefits of legalization, and the mere fact that the marquee of the country of the United States reads 'Land of the Free'. Its all a matter of polititians refusing to admit error, and raping the American people so they can continue to rake in their big money.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

and the mere fact that the marquee of the country of the United States reads 'Land of the Free'

 

That is the most flawed logic in the history of this green earth, you moron.

 

Okay, so freedom is the right to smoke marijuana? Fine, my freedom is going out to stab someone. I shouldn't be prosecuted because this is the land of the free, right?

[Guest EricMM]

As many conservatives say, it doesn't say anywhere that you are free to smoke whatever you want. There's no law for it, just a law against it.

 

I'd rather see it legalized too, but you'd need a majority of people who agree with you, and for crying out loud, most of the people who vote in this country are not potheads, do not LIKE pot heads, and certainly don't appreciate the values of bud.

 

It's stupid, but until someone can prove that most american people want it to be legalized, it will stay illegal, since there is no constitutional right to get fucked up, buzzed, or stoned. So things like drinking, smoking, and blazing can be drastically limited such as how you sell those things, and where you can do them (e.g. You can't sell beer on Sundays, and you can't smoke in a public building.)

[Guest snuffbox]

There is a slight difference between smoking marijuana and stabbing somebody, granted, for the kid who made the comparison, i guess its a rather hard to discern difference. To me anyway, and I guess I might just be being a bit too cerebral here, if one smokes marijuana in ones own home the odds of the harming anybody else are rather miniscule. As noted, there are no cases of marijuana overdose. And the idea of cannabis induced violent activity defies logic. However, if one were to stab another person, the odds of injury to the other persn would be quite significant, probably at %100 rate.

 

My apologies if one misunderstood the complaint that a nation that labels itself 'the land of the free' insists on criminalizing its citizens for the use of a natural growing plant, without violent side effects, without a physical addiction, and with proven medical benefits. And, yes, it IS wrong for the "leaders" of the land of the free to spend its peoples tax dollars to hunt down safe, adjusted citizens and imprison them.

 

And as Ive said ad nauseum, the ONLY way to make America's leaders accountable is to vote. Only a fraction of this nation votes. And the 10% who do control the vote, control the country, they are the rich and the powerful, and simply put they get off their ass one day out of the year to vote.

 

But again, my apologies for your confusion as to what its like to have freedom. A country that criminalizes plants solely for its leaders profits, i guess i just dont call that freedom.

 

But I guess at this point the arguement is moot. Several facts, and reasons have been provided for the legalization of marijuana. The prohibition side doesnt seem to really have much of an arguement outside of the current laws(thats the problem anyway, so its not really a reason) and the fact that nothing can be done if people refuse to vote(very true, but not really a reason for prohiition)

[Guest Kingpk]

And as Ive said ad nauseum, the ONLY way to make America's leaders accountable is to vote. Only a fraction of this nation votes. And the 10% who do control the vote, control the country, they are the rich and the powerful, and simply put they get off their ass one day out of the year to vote.

And if those people vote en masse to NOT legalize it, then what?

[Guest EricMM]

Shhh you're ruining his perception that somehow MJ is a "good thing"

 

Personally, I'm all for it being legalized, but I also know it's stupid. It's a waste of money, like Cigs. Plus you get stupid on it.

[Guest snuffbox]

If the majority of Americans vote 'no' then that would be the end of the debate would it not? Yes, it most certainly would.

 

However none of us could possibly prognosticate that, considering te challenge involved with actually getting Americans out to vote, and given such a situation occuring, none of us could possibly forecast the outcome either.

 

This debate was solely about the pros/cons of marijuana prohibition, as far as I could tell. Not a guessing game, an evaluation of fact.

 

It seems rather obvious, to me anyway, that the prohibition is a moral wrong and an economic failure. This debate served only to strengthen my opinion as the supporters of prohibition still seem to be able do little more than fill their firearms with propaganda, nitpicking of various sentences stuck amongst a sea of writing, and, of course, the favorite old political standy- straight up bullshit.

[Guest EricMM]

You'd better not be implying that I have anything to do with bull shit.

 

There's nothing worthwhile about Pot. It stinks worse than cigs, it's bad for your HEAD, and it's useless. I don't like it, and it's not worth legalizing. The NAMBLA people have something they think should be legalized too.

 

Christ, I dunno why it's illegal, and I think it's a lot of work for no reason (the war on Pot) but I feel that if it's the will of the many, then it's not going to get changed.

 

And the average american over 25 doesn't like pot. Doesn't smoke pot, and doesn't like pot heads.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

There's nothing worthwhile about Pot.

 

How about medical and industrial benefits? The fact that almost all of the world's paper, rope, and cloth used to come from hemp isn't a coincidence. It's an extremely strong natural fiber, it's naturally insect resistant (thus dramatically reducing the amount of toxic pesticides used), and it can grow almost anywhere. Not to mention the fact that it grows in a span of months, as opposed to years, meaning we can make a whole lot more paper and things from hemp than trees, thus preventing logging companies from hacking down virgin timbers in the pacific northwest to be made into People magazine.

[Guest Kingpk]

I think he meant "There's nothing worthwhile about (smoking) pot."

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Well, that's arguably true, depending on what study you read about the medical benefits, and definitely true when smoked for recreational purposes, but by the same token, what purpose does drinking alcohol serve? or eating doritos? or smoking cigarettes?

[Guest DARRYLXWF]

Well, that's arguably true, depending on what study you read about the medical benefits, and definitely true when smoked for recreational purposes, but by the same token, what purpose does drinking alcohol serve? or eating doritos? or smoking cigarettes?

Doritos don't aggravate schizophrenia.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

There is a slight difference between smoking marijuana and stabbing somebody, granted, for the kid who made the comparison, i guess its a rather hard to discern difference

 

This coming from someone who interprets "LAND OF THE FREE" as "LAND WHERE I CAN SMOKE WEED BECAUSE THE DEKLARATUN UF INDIPENDINSE SED I KAN!!!"

 

me anyway, and I guess I might just be being a bit too cerebral here, if one smokes marijuana in ones own home the odds of the harming anybody else are rather miniscule.

 

And that's why it's on the ballot anyway. However, the risk IS still there, because those people aren't just gonna smoke in their homes, and there's a chance they will drive and kill others.

 

As noted, there are no cases of marijuana overdose.

 

Prove it.

 

However, if one were to stab another person, the odds of injury to the other persn would be quite significant, probably at %100 rate.

 

Funny, that's the same rate at which someone would be hurt when killed in an automobile accident.

 

My apologies if one misunderstood the complaint that a nation that labels itself 'the land of the free' insists on criminalizing its citizens for the use of a natural growing plant

 

Oh, sorry, I didn't see the bushes of marijuana growing outside my house. Forgot about those.

 

without violent side effects

 

I've seen it drive a man to near suicide, to the point where he was willing to take a knife and throw it at anyone who walked through the door. But yeah, it's not violent at all, is it? There's NO chance it could POSSIBLY drive someone to violence, just because your fried brain can't comprehend that when you're stoned.

 

without a physical addiction

 

...but with a mental dependancy.

 

and with proven medical benefits.

 

Depending on who you get your information from.

 

And, yes, it IS wrong for the "leaders" of the land of the free to spend its peoples tax dollars to hunt down safe, adjusted citizens and imprison them.

 

This is the only valid point you have made throughout your posts on this thread, and it's already been reiterated a hundred times by myself and others. America being "The Land of the Free" has nothing to do with this, though.

 

And as Ive said ad nauseum, the ONLY way to make America's leaders accountable is to vote. Only a fraction of this nation votes. And the 10% who do control the vote, control the country, they are the rich and the powerful, and simply put they get off their ass one day out of the year to vote.

 

I am neither rich nor powerful and I voted. What's your point? The potheads don't vote out of a sense of protest or something. Either that, or they're too busy getting fried.

 

But again, my apologies for your confusion as to what its like to have freedom. A country that criminalizes plants solely for its leaders profits, i guess i just dont call that freedom.

 

What the fuck are you insinuating here? That the politicians get their rocks off by sending people into prison? You really are an idiot.

 

But I guess at this point the arguement is moot.

 

It's about time you admitted it.

 

Several facts, and reasons have been provided for the legalization of marijuana.

 

Funny, none by you.

 

The prohibition side doesnt seem to really have much of an arguement outside of the current laws(thats the problem anyway, so its not really a reason) and the fact that nothing can be done if people refuse to vote(very true, but not really a reason for prohiition)

 

The stupid part about this is that THERE ISN'T EVEN AN ARGUMENT HERE ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT IT SHOULD BE LEGALIZED. The only thing we're really debating is the merits of pot itself. We all know it should be legalized because frankly, this system isn't working right now. However, your justification was so utterly insulting that I was shocked nobody else said a damn thing.

 

Don't insult the Declaration of Independence, the basis on which this country was founded, by saying it gives you a RIGHT to endanger other citizens. I don't think the fucking Founding Fathers had that in mind, do you?

 

No?

 

Then shut up. Don't talk down to me again.

[Guest EricMM]

The ONLY defense of legalizing pot is that it REALLY doesn't matter in the long run. Which is debatable. People who want it legalized for the medical benefits better allow it to be monitored just like Morphine, cuz I don't know many 20 year olds who sit at home treating their glaucoma every night...

 

One one hand, the status quo is stupid, but if you (or the pot lobby) does not provide a legitamite reason why smokers should be allowed to smoke up, then it's never going to change.

 

But on the other hand, I could care less about what other people do to themselves, at least strangers. There are however a lot of people in this land who pride themselves on saving people from themselves. Whether or not that's a particularly good thing, you're going to have a VERY hard time convincing those people (who probably vote a LOT more than stoners) that Stoners should be allowed to smoke up. They believe it's wrong. It is ILLEGAL. Therefore people should not be doing it PERIOD. If someone is doing it, they are breaking the law, therefore they are bad people.

 

Thats not really what I think, but a lot of people do.

 

*EDIT* You might be surprised, the people you think are doing "wrong" things are probably breaking a lot less laws than you are. I'm not talking muggers or murderers but people who do bad things everyday often do them legally. *EDIT*

[Guest snuffbox]

*Medicinal uses, this is a recognized fact for those with heads removed from their anus. It provides pain relief for those with serious injuries, or illness. And is not physically addictive like painkillers such as Oxycontin or Vicodin.

*Psychologically, people with a 'chip on their shoulder', just generally angered or troubled, have smoked, and seen incredible changes on their outlook on life. Marijuana is not heroin or crack cocaine or alcohol. It does not induce anger or violent thoughts. It has a legit, recognized calming effect.

*Lower crime, government sponsered marijuana sales would eliminate the illegal, and gangster influence. Why would anybody buy from a dealer, which would remain illegal, when they could buy quality product at a store, knowing its not laced with anything, and knowing they wont be mugged?

*The ridiculous ammount of money spent so that polititians dont have to admit that theyre wrong can be freed up to be spent on actually helping the American people.

*Marijuana sales would be taxed, thus creating more revenue for uses beneficial to the American people.

*Prisons can actually house murderers and rapists for once, not the nonviolent potheads. Also, stemming overcrowding, and ending the tabboo over the heads of honest people, who just enjoy a relatively safe high.

 

This had allready been posted, please read, I implore you.

 

The Declaration of Independance does gurantee the unalienable rights of Americans. However it does not mention marijuana in any sense, thus its not an arguement. And I for one have never used it. Im rather befuddled as to the kids misspelling of it as some sort of grand reason for the cause of marijuana prohibition.

 

About the pot overdoses, and this has allready been posted as well, please read-

 

The Drug Awareness Warning Network Annual Report, published by the US federal government contains a statistical compilation of all drug deaths which occur in the United States. According to this report, there has never been a death recorded from the use of marijuana by natural causes. No one knows the total number of deaths caused by enforcement of marijuana prohibition laws.

 

Considering the obvious, that would make almost any slightly dangerous day job or recreational activity more dangerous then the short term effects of smoking marijuana.

 

Again, marijuana (when its not laced or tainted mind you, and that is another reason for legalization, safer product) is NOT crack cocaine and its not heroin. The debate for prohibition consistently compares the different drugs, when a comparison never really should be made in the first place.

 

The debate is not about the morals of smoking marijuana. Yes, smoking is dangerous to ones health. Yes, it will have long term effects on a body. And also yes, it does have several benefits, as allready noted. The debate is about the plitical necessity of marjuana prohibition, and it only revolves around polititians continuing to make their money. Yes, they do get their nut off by putting smokers in prison, because they get their nut off by making money!

 

-also, when did I actually use the Declaration of Independance as an arguement?-

 

Please, I grant you that smoking marijuana is dangerous to ones self, that is obvious, now just provide one legit reason why prohibition should stay in effect. Its not about everybody must get stoned. Its about that dollar figure, in the billions, that could really be used to help alot of people in our country. Not just a handful of our 'leaders'.

[Guest bob_barron]

How do you make money by putting someone in jail?

[Guest snuffbox]

The ammount spent on the hunt for, arrest, trial, and imprisonment of marijuana smokers is quite staggering. The war on drugs spends nearly $50 billion (with a B, shout out to Ronny) a year. Helicopters, guns, and agents cost a lot of money. Once in jail, the money doesnt stop. #meals a day, upkeep, and numerous people employed. Its a billion dollar industry. In Vietnam, the Bell Helicopter company fueled much of the war effort, they provided the helicopters, obviously, that were so plentiful in southeast Asia. They had a known connection to President Johnson at the time. Likewise, with this war on drugs, the polititians continue to have ties to the companies that make all of the products that are in use. It is big big money.

 

Its hard to tell our leaders to stop, its hard to just stop fueling a billion dollar effort! The only way to hold such behavior accountable is to vote, and until Americans, the middle and lower classes especially, do that, changes will be slow. Very slow.

 

There was only one Senator who voted against the recent pay raise for congress, in light of the nations current economic state. ONE! dont expect a whole lot of morality from these people.

[Guest bob_barron]

I still don't see how you make a profit from arresting someone and putting them in jail