Genetics going too far?

[Guest J*ingus]

Well when it comes to stuff like cloning you can rest assured that the public only knows about 1% of what is going on behind closed doors. Hell, they possibly could have already cloned or tried to clone a human being, yet we won't know about it for 5-10 years.

Doubtful, since the VAST majority of the work is being done by university research labs, not the government. Academic teams are usually far too eager to show off their results once they've obtained them.

 

And how is it "playing God" when it's something that can actually be done by a human?

[Guest evenflowDDT]

I saw some news-magazine segment a few months ago that said this anonymous couple already went to a doctor, and they were already cloning a child and it'd be born in a few months or whatever. Then again, it was a friggin' news-magazine, and those aren't exactly veritable sources of information, what with their sensationalism and all.

 

As for the topic, what's the point? I'd mark the fuck out for a real-life horror movie monster if they made one, but why bother with some useless single-cell organism that doesn't even have a purpose in mind for its creation?

[Guest JLuv0309]

Didn't I see this all in a movie once...oh yeah Gattaca...creepy.

[Guest El Satanico]

Well of course you've seen this stuff in a movie. It's been material for many science fiction writers for decades.

[Guest El Satanico]

Yes, and because he's considered the most evil man ever we have to ignore good ideas that he held also? I mean, eugenics were used by the Nazis to produce a more pure Aryan race, but I'm thinking more in terms of jobs and services, this time using cloning instead of putting people together and hoping something good comes out. With a clone you KNOW what you're getting. The problem is that this is where emotion comes in to hamper potentially practical ideas.

 

Of course, by now, everyone's already thinking of ways to call me a Nazi, so I'll just stop before saying any more.

 

Kotzenjunge

Plays Invisible Man

You NAZI! BAN HIM FOR HE IS AN EVIL NAZI SUPPORTER!!!

 

Is that the type of thing you were talking about?

 

But you're right people are so trained to scream SATAN at the mention of Hitler's name(and for good reason) that they always ignore the fact that he had alot of good ideas and performed many scientific experiments that were way ahead of their time. If only he hadn't gone completely mad with power.

 

But you should be careful saying stuff like this kotz. I mean loving techno and saying things that could be construed as Hitler support.

 

dangerous stuff me friend...dangerous stuff

[Guest evenflowDDT]

...that he [Nazis] had alot of good ideas and performed many scientific experiments that were way ahead of their time.

The reason these experiments were "ahead of their time" and could be done is because they had absolutely no respect for their subjects and not only didn't care if they died, actually preferred it. Mengele was a monster, plain and simple, and I'm not exactly sure how you can connect starvation, immolation, and vivisection to genetic research.

[Guest Slapnuts00]

But you're right people are so trained to scream SATAN at the mention of Hitler's name(and for good reason) that they always ignore the fact that he had alot of good ideas and performed many scientific experiments that were way ahead of their time.

Yeah, too bad they were performed on Jews who were tortured and left to die...Other than that, yeah he had some great ideas!

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

I'm thinking more in terms of jobs and services, this time using cloning instead of putting people together and hoping something good comes out.

 

So wait...

 

Unless I mis-interpreted this, you think that we should clone people, with brains, for the sole purpose of labour?

 

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this? I mean, if you're creating a human being and setting out his entire life for him, and completely stripping him of free will...

 

I dunno...maybe I'M nuts, but that whole idea REALLY doesn't sit well with me...

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

...Brave New World.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

Brave New World! Yeah!

 

 

Oh wait...you mean the BOOK...sorry.

 

Edit: Post 316! w00t~!

 

So yeah...most useless post ever in CE.

 

I'm sorry. But I contributed up there...really.

 

Someone get this back on topic; I like this discussion.

[Guest El Satanico]

I'm not defending their methods at all, but all their work shouldn't be totally discounted just because the methods were terrible.

[Guest evenflowDDT]

I'm not defending their methods at all, but all their work shouldn't be totally discounted just because the methods were terrible.

I want to agree with this, but since the majority of their research was done purely to try and "convert" those in the concentration camp to the "master race" or to see how little it takes to keep them alive, I really don't see what other use any legitimate scientist could have for how long someone can work all day with no nourishment compared to how long their twin brother can work all day with a few crumbs of nourishment.

[Guest DrTom]

Think of the Possibilities of a Genetically Flawless Society

I've seen Gattaca. Have you?

 

The problem with a genetically flawless society (or as close to it as we can get) is that those with genetic flaws will be discriminated against. We'll replace racism and sexism with geneism, all while telling ourselves we're so much more enlightened than the racists in out past because we're perfect, damnit.

 

I don't support cloning for any reason, and I think a lot of genetic research is creepy and could easily be used for purposes not intended. Someone needs a new kidney? Guess what? PEOPLE FUCKING DIE. It's the natural order of things, and growing farms of "host bodies" just to harvest organs from sickens me. Why can't people just accept that they're going to die someday instead of doing anything they can to try and prolong their lives?

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

I don't see the problem with growing a kidney in a lab somewhere inside of a mindless, brainless, thoughtless lump of living tissue when it could be easily done to prevent someone from dying.

 

Yeah, people die, and no matter how many fresh hearts and livers you can grow in a lab, that process in inevitable. With that "gotta go sometime" logic, why not just say, "I've got pneumonia, ah fuck it, gotta go sometime." It's because we can fix that now. Back then, we couldn't, just the same with Cholera, and all those other wretched infections that ran rampant over the planet. We got smarter than single celled organisms.

 

The basic human instinct of self-preservation dictates basically nothing more than "DON'T DIE!"

 

I'm not one to go denying that, and am perfectly willing to have a couple ripe pink spongy lungs by the wayside in a lab somewhere for when I finally get cancer.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Brave New World it may be, but would it really be all that bad after the first couple of generations who knew of this kind of life were gone? Remember, things are only as bad as your alternatives are good. No alternatives mean you can't say that something is bad, as there is no room for comparison. None of this stuff will happen for at least another hundred years or so anyway, by which time humans will hopefully be so desensitized to everything that emotions will be gone and no one will mind doing things like this. Sense of humanity and charity and all that get in the way of a LOT of things we could do. Well, Religion also, but I don't want to touch off a debate about that, since we've got something good going here so far with me being the science advocate and everyone else being humanistic.

 

Kotzenjunge

Shouldn't Post Late At Night, Weird Things Are Produced

[Guest big Dante Cruz]

This whole concept of creating humans for a labor force does sound familiar...

 

"Am I not a woman? I may not be as pretty as some, but am I not a woman, same as any other?" - Sojouner Truth.

 

As for creating organs, well, unless I miss my guess, they're working on how to create organs in labs out of a petrie dish or whatever. You grow a spleen in the goop, fine. You create little Bobby to cut him open and take out all of his organs to give to other people and I hope you get a nice spot in Hell.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

So Kotz, unless I'm misstaken, you think that simply because people would have eventually forgotten about previous times, that it would be fine and dandy to create people specifically for the purpose of doing hard labour and assorted other things no one wants to do?

 

I'll assume I'm right in that synopsis, and go from there. I find the entire idea somewhat hideous, to be quite honest, mainly becuase you're stripping away one of the basics of human existence: Freedom. Now, I do understand that not everyone currently has freedom, but for those who don't have it, either they or someone else is striving towards their freedom, for the most part. And even those who do not have freedom, well, you can't take it away from everyone because few do not have it.

 

And if a person has no emotions, how much of a person are they? Keeping in mind that humans are (To the best of my knowledge) the only creture on earth to feel such complex emotions, would this group of emotionless drones even really count as people?

 

And besides, if we wanted to be so cruel, I'm sure the technology exists to take criminals and the like, lobotomize them so they don't remember what it was like before and have no real emotions, then set them to work.

 

Both plans sound equally cruel to me.

[Guest evenflowDDT]

You create little Bobby to cut him open and take out all of his organs to give to other people and I hope you get a nice spot in Hell.

This is actually an interesting question in regards to religion vs. science, etc. Would clones have souls? If not, then wouldn't killing them NOT be a sin per se since, spiritually, they were never people?

 

Also, I agree with The_Metal_Maniac in that if you take out emotion, you take out what makes us human. That's exactly what makes the characters in anti-utopian novels so distant, disliked, and creepy - the fact that they lack this "basic human quality". I'm all for science, and other than the fact that it serves no useful purpose I don't even mind human cloning all that much, but "editing out" emotions, free thought, and free will will lead to the downfall of humanity.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

I'll assume I'm right in that synopsis, and go from there. I find the entire idea somewhat hideous, to be quite honest, mainly becuase you're stripping away one of the basics of human existence: Freedom. Now, I do understand that not everyone currently has freedom, but for those who don't have it, either they or someone else is striving towards their freedom, for the most part. And even those who do not have freedom, well, you can't take it away from everyone because few do not have it.

Once again, would it really be all that awful if we had no idea it ever was that way? Do animals feel sorry for themselves as we do sometimes? No, because they mostly aren't cognizant of themselves nor do they know an alternative to their narrow existences. A world without freedom wouldn't be that bad if no one knew what freedom was. Nothing to be upset about as long as you aren't aware of alternatives. The moment one appeared though, the system would break apart, almost like the Eastern Bloc once it got a taste of Western culture. We only consider such ideas barbaric and frightening because we live in the opposite of the theoretical situation, where choice is rampant and we're fully aware of other ways to do almost everything.

 

And the criminal idea sounds great, and I'd advocate that over a death penalty if they actually did it.

 

Kotzenjunge

Too Imaginative For His Own Good

[Guest big Dante Cruz]

You can actually see the alternative analogy in third world countries today. If people are screwed over their entire lives and only maintain a susitinence level, they won't revolt. Their hope has been dead since day one. However, you give them a glimmer of hope and snatch it away, that's when they come after you.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

Kotz - Again, you're stripping out HUMANITY. Yes, eventually, our minds would not be able to comprehend the alternatives.

 

But hey, I can't comprehend that we'll ever travel faster then light (I know it's impossible, but it's an analogy. Deal with it). But that doesn't mean that should that technology become available, we should not use it, because it was formerly imcomprehensible.

 

And how exactly, would you propose that we ensure that no one remembers these days? I mean, there's so much shit left behind by our society that you'd essentially have to burn the whole earth to the ground and start over. Otherwise, people could find things from these days, discover how things used to be, and mayhem ensues.

 

But fuck, this is a hard thing to debate - there's not much you can counter Kotz's points with, because he's essentially right - we wouldn't know any other way, and therefore, wouldn't complain. But it still just feels wrong.

 

Unless I've missed some sort of glaring logic gap somewhere...

[Guest DrTom]

I don't see the problem with growing a kidney in a lab somewhere inside of a mindless, brainless, thoughtless lump of living tissue when it could be easily done to prevent someone from dying.

Just because we can do something does not mean that we should, and it certainly does not mean that we must.

 

Taking medicine to recover from an illness is one thing. Cloning a body part in a disposable host body is quite another. They're both essentially used to recover from sickness and stave off death, but one of them doesn't require pushing the bounds of science to places it might be wise to avoid.

 

I *Promise* that cloning will be abused if the ban is lifted and it becomes a viable industry. And when that happens, we'll have no one to blame but ourselves.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

To keep information of the past from the masses, make it available to only the people in charge. Of course, the moment that stories of a golden age in the past got out, shit would hit the fan for sure. EvenflowDDT and I were actually discussing this further over AIM. We also said how this organ thing could turn into a massive class struggle, since it'd be a LONG time before the common man would have ready access to organs, and resentment could breed especially if the haves make sure the have-nots don't get what they need. Then we have the revolution, over health care of all things, and the REAL fun begins.

 

Kotzenjunge

Doesn't Want To Be Thought Of As Mad

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

To keep information of the past from the masses, make it available to only the people in charge. Of course, the moment that stories of a golden age in the past got out, shit would hit the fan for sure.

 

But Kotz, what I'm saying is, how?

 

Keep in mind, the world is currently filled with stuff that has been created by our society. Books, newspapers, computers, even ordinary bits of garbage could be hints of past days. Unless someone is going to round all this stuff up (I'm talking hit those landfills boys - you never know - someone's diary could be in there, and we can't let THAT be found) it just ain't gonna work too well.

 

Not that I think people are gonna be rooting in landfills just for fun, but you see my point - there's just too much shit that we've made to hide it from the general public.

[Guest Blayde Starrfyre]

To go back to the original topic, I think that man-made cells could serve some very useful purposes. Think about it, you could rebuild spinal cords, organs, or whatever else you need. But the idea of creating "hosts" for organs just creeps me out . . eww.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

To keep information of the past from the masses, make it available to only the people in charge. Of course, the moment that stories of a golden age in the past got out, shit would hit the fan for sure.

 

But Kotz, what I'm saying is, how?

 

Keep in mind, the world is currently filled with stuff that has been created by our society. Books, newspapers, computers, even ordinary bits of garbage could be hints of past days. Unless someone is going to round all this stuff up (I'm talking hit those landfills boys - you never know - someone's diary could be in there, and we can't let THAT be found) it just ain't gonna work too well.

 

Not that I think people are gonna be rooting in landfills just for fun, but you see my point - there's just too much shit that we've made to hide it from the general public.

We talked about this too. Whether we like it or not, we WILL become uninspired and mindless thanks to government control somewhere a ways down the line. The first step towards the control of the people would be legalizinng and nationalizing the sales and purchase of illegal drugs. Many experiments have proven that animals with higher brains value pleasure over everything else, even survival. If managed properly, we could be a nation of addicts within 25-50 years, and the people will become more apathetic to governmental affairs than they are now. What I'm saying is that it won't be an instant change, it'll be so gradual we won't even realize it's happening, and by the time someone would be curious about the past, no one would care enough to pursue it. Also, humans are caring less and less about their fellow man by the day, imagine what factor this will be amplified by in say, 25 years.

 

Such a complete scenario (everything I've been talking about in this thread so far) is probably 100 years away at least. I'm glad you're at least past the "Creepy" aspect of all of this and such. I can't possibly be the only person who sees this happening in the not-too-distant-future.

 

Kotzenjunge

Parties Like It's 632 A.F.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

Kotz: I think the only hole I can see in that theory is the assumption that everyone will get addicted to drugs.

 

These days, smokes and booze are legal, and I know a ton of people that do neither. Hell, even pot (which is still illegal, but easy enough to get) isn't used by everyone; Many people simply refuse to do drugs.

 

So...yeah. Though I still do think it's creepy.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Ah, but even if they didn't get addicted to drugs, there would still be several mega-nations that would be intensely nationalistic, in order to give those who abstain from such vices SOMETHING to believe in, and to obey for. The leaders would all be in concert, and use the power of the media to convince the public of atrocities and such that never happen.

 

Kotzenjunge

Ends Up Hanging Himself In A Lighthouse

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Taking medicine to recover from an illness is one thing. Cloning a body part in a disposable host body is quite another. They're both essentially used to recover from sickness and stave off death, but one of them doesn't require pushing the bounds of science to places it might be wise to avoid.

Why?

 

I could see how a clone of Osama bin-Laden would be a problem. However, there was nothing stopping Osama from telling everything he knew to any other person so they could continue operations, no clones required.

 

I could see how a clone of Saddam Hussein could present problems. But if Saddam already has WoMD, then the current one could push the red button with no questions asked and kill a whole bunch of people, no clones required.

 

So explain to me how evil cloning is.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

Keep in mind that, should the technology become available, they can clone all the Bin Ladens and Saddams they want - They're not necessairly going to be evil people, they'll just look a lot like them.

 

It's all about environment.