Rate These Matches

[Guest BionicRedneck]

OK, this board is pretty dead so I thought this might be a good way to start some discussions/arguments.

 

so basically rate the following matches whichever way you see fit:

 

Koji Kanemoto vs. El Samurai, BOSJ 97 Final

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Vader, Baba Memorial 99

Kenta Kobashi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, 31/10/98

Keiji Mutoh vs. Hiroshi Hase, 6/6/01

Genichiro Tenryu vs. Satoshi Kojima, 7/17/02

 

The reason I picked these matches are because I have seen a wide variety of ratings for these matches, and I just thought it would be interesting to see what people rated high/low etc.

[Guest wolverine]

OK, of the ones I've seen....

 

"Koji Kanemoto vs. El Samurai, BOSJ 97 Final"

 

***1/2

 

"Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Vader, Baba Memorial 99"

 

***

 

"Kenta Kobashi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, 31/10/98"

 

***1/2

[EL DANDY~! 0]

The Mutoh/Hase match is ****. Hase made you BELIEVE that Mutoh's offense was the most devastating thing known to man. Awesomely methodical match.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I guess this is where the contrasting of opinions takes place.

 

The only thing I "believed" about Mutoh/Hase is how much crack must have been in NJPW's system for booking that tripe. Fourty minutes of no-selling, aimless wrestling and "puroresu love." Poo on self-glorifying nonsense and poo on matches like this. No rating.

 

Kanemoto/Samurai was something that I originally despised, but grew to enjoy "for what it was." If you want to a high spot with some pretty funky offense and don't care about how much it tells a story or connects with you personally, you might really enjoy this. ***1/2

[Guest Jubuki]

In order:

 

3, 3.5, haven't seen the full version, pile of shit, will watch this weekend. There you are.

 

And anyone who likes Mutoh/Hase needs to find out what the fuck 'old-school' means by actually watching some. Hase didn't do a goddamn thing other than sell a figure-four he was PUTTING ON Mutoh.

[Guest wolverine]

Chris: What did you rate the 9/97 Tamura-Han? I know you said it wasn't as good as 1/97, which I assume you rate ****3/4. Thanks.

[Guest Jubuki]

Haha, WRONG.

 

I don't rate shootstyle stuff at all.

[Guest wolverine]

Yeah, neither did Meltzer apparently, as I'm looking at this Observer from 10/97 and he basically called it an 'excellent' match. And aside from what Tim has told me, I've found zero reviews for it, just several people saying it's *****. Ah well, looks like I'll have to judge for myself shortly.

[Guest Jubuki]

Well, 15 minutes into Kojima/Tenryu, and there's one thing that's clear: it ain't nobody's match of the year, unless you're a fucking moron. Which would explain a lot, if you've been keeping up with the populist commentary.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

How does it compare to the 2/24 match? I enjoyed that match more than the rest of the card, but I didn't see how those two could possibly produce a MOTYC together.

 

Also, have you got a pick for MOTY so far? I remember Tim saying TM/Hidaka was very good but I haven't heard about anything even close to high end from this year other than the NJPW stuff, which I have very little interest in seeing.

[Guest Jubuki]

I think it might actually be worse than the 2/24 match. Not by a whole lot, but worse no less. Kojima blows some spots and takes 5 brainbusters before NO-SELLING ONE. Take 5, then pop up...uh, right.

 

As for MOTY's, NO. This year has Sucked the Big Donkey Balls en masse. I need to see if there's any La Parka in Monterrey stuff or Santito that I haven't seen; that's probably where there was some wrestling I could stand. Granted, I still haven't watched the AJW 2/24 show or the 7/6 show, but I don't have high hopes after seeing a bunch of shit in place of the stuff others have recommended.

[Guest wolverine]

It comes as absolutely no surprise to me that Tenryu-Kojima isn't any good. I've yet to see one person, aside from Meltzer, who knows a goddamn thing about wrestling pimp this match. Luckily for me, I don't waste money on shit like this anymore - instead I'm attempting to augment my collection with actual greatness, in the form of Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Hokuto and Volk Han. Can't go wrong there.

[Guest Jubuki]

I'm not sure if DEAN pimped this or not. DEAN: where are you? You stood up for one of the two meetings and there's some 'splainin' to do.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I thought Kojima / Tenryu was quite good. The brainbuster thing was very bad, especially the no selling of one of them, but overall I think the match was probly the best I've seen this year.

 

I like the story they told before the brainbusters came into it, with Tenryu trying to prove himself as still athletic and quick, but failing each time because he should be relying on experience and familiarity. Also, it is the things that he is familier with that win him the match - the 'guh' punches, the brainbusters etc.. And of course there was Kojima trying to prove himself as a worthy successor to the veterans, by using Tenryu's own 'guh' punches and the western lariat. Up until the brainbuster silliness this was a great match, to my eyes.

[Guest Jubuki]

TELL ME you realize how incredibly stupid it is to punch someone in the face repeatedly early in the match, and then use ONE punch to lead into brainbusters later in the match. PLEASE.

 

It's a hideously flawed match.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I'm afraid I don't. If Kojima has been warn down by the toll of the match, and the many punches earlier on, then surely one punch will be enough to set him up for a brainbuster later in the match?

 

I don't remember this particular section of the match, as I obviously didn't notice it, but from your description this seems to be the easy explanation.

[Guest Jubuki]

Uh, no? It's not one section - it's the whole match. It's the meaning behind what's happening.

 

He dishes out 2 dozen punches in the early part of the match, none of which lead to something big. None. Not once in the first 11 minutes or so does he actually go for something that could be construed as a near-fall; he just punches and chops. Later on, Kojima drops him with something (Ace Crusher, I think), and then picks him up for more damage...only to have Tenryu swat away his grip, punch, chop, brainbuster. Hello?!? If you could just block him, hit him nonchalantly with something you've already used repeatedly to little true effect, and then drop him with a finisher, why not do it ten minutes ago? Why not do it four or five or six times in a row at the beginning of the match? Same thing that happened in their February match -- shit transitions and half-assed psych throughout.

[Guest Evil Ash]

There's a few explanations, I guess. One is that earlier on in the match Kojima was fresh, and so he had more "in him". Once he'd been drained more the damage a Tenryu punch did became more tangible.

 

Or, it could simply be that pro wrestling isn't generally geared towards people who come at it from such an analytic stand point. Wrestling may be art, but it's pretty far down in the hierarchy when compared to literature and paintings, and shit like that. It's probably just a step above interpretive dance. With that as it's nature, I don't think it assumes to present itself in such a way that it would expect such critcism.

 

But hey, I could be wrong.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

The AJPW yardstick (Misawa v. Kawada 94, Mis / Kobashi v. Kawada / Taue 95 etc.) matches are constructed in a way that holds up to such close analysis, as are most of the other puroresu classics, by which I mean the ones everyone loves. However, you are correct, most wrestling isn't, and as a fan, i tend not to pay such close attension as some of the guys on this board. I am also less experienced so the bar hasn't been raised so high for me, yet.

 

In regard to Jubuki's last comment, I would assume that that is Tenryu working to his experience, once again, and it working out for him. He sticks to what he knows in the early goings - the punches - slowly wearing Kojima down before going for the finisher. You pose the question of why he doesn't just hit lots of finishers in the early going if he can block Kojima anyway - maybe he can't block Kojima unless he's worn him down already. Makes sense that if someone is fresh they will be able to block a move, but when they have been beaten up a bit, they will be less aware and will not be able to block it. It works into the whole experience story of the match, surely.

[Guest Jubuki]

You are. There were always reasons for people reacting the way they did, and there still are. This isn't something I'm doing that no one else is capable of, for fuck's sake - you just have to be able to step away from your own immediate reactions to what you see and think, "Why is it having this kind of effect on me?"

 

Why is it that every time someone presents a reason why something in wrestling doesn't work so well, someone here has to respond with, "Uh, uh, well...it's just wrestling, it's supposed to be stupid!" If you think it's supposed to be low, you're just the kind of mark the McMahons are looking for. Congratulations. Watch some Lucha some time and think about whether or not the wrestlers know what the fans want and expect.

 

And the "block" thing makes zero sense. Kojima pulls him up by the head and Tenryu just smacks Kojima's hands away, then does it. He just slaps them away, the way the Rock does when he goes off on one of his punch-fests. It's not like he's blocking a lariat! He just slaps his hands away and says, "Nah, I'm going to brainbuster you now." 'Worn down' obviously wasn't an issue - it wasn't that different from the earlier times when he decided to go off on Kojima, except it was suddenly later in the match and it was time for a finisher instead of a bunch of punches and chops. Shit transition, shit psych.

 

And of course Tenryu's going to stick to what he knows - that's what EVERYONE DOES. Unless you're Damian and you're yelling out names, who's going to suddenly stop mid-match and say, "Hey, I got an idea! I'll use this other person's finisher!" I've seen "sticking to your guns" at work for rookies and youngsters who think they can knock off a veteran, but that's after showing they have some sort of doubt, either in the past or during the match, like Ohtani's crying; what does Tenryu have to doubt? What's going to make him change? He's the one with the titles - of course he's going to do what got him there. Though something may be a *possible* explanation, it doesn't mean it's actually any good. Anyone consider that other than me?

[Guest Evil Ash]

You are. There were always reasons for people reacting the way they did, and there still are. This isn't something I'm doing that no one else is capable of, for fuck's sake - you just have to be able to step haway from your own immediate reactions to what you see and think, "Why is it having this kind of effect on me?"

 

Why is it that every time someone presents a reason why something in wrestling doesn't work so well, someone here has to respond with, "Uh, uh, well...it's just wrestling, it's supposed to be stupid!" If you think it's supposed to be low, you're just the kind of mark the McMahons are looking for. Congratulations. Watch some Lucha some time and think about whether or not the wrestlers know what the fans want and expect.

 

I never contended any of that. I never made a real "plea to ignorance" either. Certainly there are aspects of a wrestling match that do indeed need further investigation, and can stand up to some critique. But I'm all for the punishment fitting the crime, so to speak. I don't believe that pro wrestling, by it's nature, deserves to be put up against some sort of deconstructionist criticism. It certainly can be examined, though.

 

So, let's go with the current match in question. I'm fully capable of standing back and looking at it, and asking questions. I'm something of a critical viewer myself (but I try to keep my criticisms in context).

 

The primary point of any sort of art is entertainment. I firmly believe that. Even those who are heavily literary, and wish to make their stories the most symbolistic, challenging, and metaphysical (dare I say hermeneutical?), must first and foremost entertain. That's the fucking job of art.

 

Tenryu vs Kojima succeeded in entertaining me. Okay, so I have to ask: why? Well, there's definitely some bias involved, as I think rather highly of Tenryu (I'm not going to explain why, that's for another post), and I find Kojima quite entertaining. Kojima has tons of charisma and he can wrestle, despite the fact that (as a poster on an old board I used to visit once said) "he seems to have learned his selling from some "Misawa Goes Crazy" comp".

 

But obviously that wasn't it. So, what made it enjoyable?

 

It certainly wasn't the first 10 minutes. They pretty much blew. But then we got somewhere.

 

Kojima and Tenryu began to work really well together. Their actions and their reactions showed the two characters, and how they compared and contrasted. They were able to convey real emotion (I thought), and

tell a fine little tail with their mannerisms, their moves, their actions.

 

Yeah, the first ten minutes sucked. Yeah, the overkill of the brainbuster was ridiculous. But in the end, the overall action and feeling of the match,

the emotion, the (I sound like a fucking philosopher - sorry, I've been studying a bunch of philosophy bullshit for exams) transcendent message they ended up conveying far outweighs any nickle-and-dime poor

selling bullshit that occured.

 

It's like Jenga. The crappy start and the brainbuster crap certainly pulled out some blocks from the bottom, but the whole thing in no way toppled.

 

This isn't "Waiting for Godot". It's not supposed to be inspected with such great attention (and emphasis) on detail. I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be critiqued, just that the critique should be reasonable

considering the genre of the artwork.

 

And of course, in the end, art is always subjective. I understand why I liked the match. From reading what you put, I understand why you don't. I guess I see wrestling completely differently than you do, and

expect something completely different from it.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Well said Jubuki, well said Evil Ash.

 

Jubuki, point taken, you're probably right, and when I watch the match again I will probably notice this same thing. It still won't be as important to me as it is to you though, as I don't critique matches as closely as you. I don't want to.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Though something may be a *possible* explanation, it doesn't mean it's actually any good.

Indeed. Although many of the explanations given are somewhat right, it doesn't hide the fact that the match itself isn't great. It was quite fun for a bit (maybe down to me being fans of both guys rather than the action itself), but by the end I was just questioning "why?".

 

I certainly didn't see it as the MOTY.

[Guest XdojimeX]

Um, err...back to original topic.

 

- Koji Kanemoto vs. El Samurai, BOSJ 97 Final

***1/2. Echo Ricky's sentiments. Just a fun balls out spotfest with some gaping flaws to it. Was Budokan ever this hot for a Juniors match? Was El Samurai ever this over? I think the backlash (although warrented) to the initial praise it received snowballed to the point it was starting to get a bit underated. But that happens.

 

- Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Vader, Baba Memorial 99

 

Ya know I never got around to seeing this one for some reason. And I like both guys a lot, post-prime be damned.

 

- Kenta Kobashi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, 31/10/98

 

****. Not my fav between these two, but it has it's qualities. Similiar situation to the Sammy/Kanemoto backlash IMO.

 

- Keiji Mutoh vs. Hiroshi Hase, 6/6/01

*1/2. Not enough wrestling fanboy vitriol in the world for me to unleash on this match. UGH. If you want to see the great chemistry these two used to have when they we're in their prime please go track down their early 90's matches in NJ. Particularly their non-blood 9/93 match, an underated little gem. I actually like it more than the blade matches since it's a straight up NJ Heavy duel without the Muta gimmickry.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

"It's not supposed to be inspected with such great attention (and emphasis) on detail. I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be critiqued, just that the critique should be reasonable." - Evil Ash

 

All fine and good, but what do you find unreasonable about Chris's notes on the punches? It sounds to me like all you need to do is pay attention to the way they treat the strike early on and the way they treat the strike later.

 

Some wrestlers are able to build up their strikes so that they have a different affect depending on how strongly and how directly they hit, which makes perfect sense, but from what I've seen of Tenryu, there isn't much variation on how hard he punches the guy.

 

My favorite Kojima match so far was his fun little ride with Kawada last year. Looked to me like they might have a better match in them if they ever worked together again. If Kawada does come back, a re-match between the two is about the only thing that could convince me to buy an AJPW tape from Mutoh's circus. I'd rather Kawada just retire, though.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

True, but wouldn't a last run with the TC by Kawada be a good way to end it? Just coming back and losing to Mutoh wouldn't do much and would leave a bad taste in many people's mouths...

[Guest RickyChosyu]

This is Mutoh we're talking abou here. You know, the guy who won the straps while injurred and put himself over three times in one night?

 

I, and many others, after seeing Kawada's disheartening performance on 2/24 with Mutoh probably wouldn't mind if he just retired and started his own promotion, or something along those lines.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Kawada could have been Jumbo...

 

But there are a few factors holding that off.

 

First, Kawada was NEVER passed the Torch. 5/1/98 is what some people may think is the passing of the torch, but if that is it, then I would rather not see another Torch passes again.

 

Second, he has ZERO to work with. Jumbo had Misawa, Kawada, Kikuchi, Kobashi to work with, plus the help of Fuchi.

 

Kawada has Kojima. And frankly, I don't think Kojima is suited to carry the company. He was a fine tag team worker and has looked decent in singles stuff, but other than that, nothing.

 

Plus AJPW does nothing to get young prospects like they used to. Kawada should retire or go to NOAH for a real run, if that would be possible.

 

Tim

[Guest Evil Ash]

"All fine and good, but what do you find unreasonable about Chris's notes on the punches? It sounds to me like all you need to do is pay attention to the way they treat the strike early on and the way they treat the strike later."

 

I wouldn't argue that point, and I don't think I did. The points are valid, its the conclusion drawn from them that I find problematic. But, whatever, c'est la vie.

 

Kawada vs Kojima was alot of fun, and hopefully they'll do it again sometime. For some reason, if Kawada's gotta bail, I'd like to see him in ZERO ONE. Dunno why, exactly, it just sounds interesting...

[Guest RickyChosyu]

"I wouldn't argue that point, and I don't think I did. The points are valid, its the conclusion drawn from them that I find problematic. But, whatever, c'est la vie."

 

Yeah, that's how it goes. Having not seen the match, I can't tell if I would find the transitions to be a glaring problem either.

 

As for Kawada, I suppose a trip through Zero One could be nice. He and Hash could produce something fun and there's always a chance of seeing Corino get punted viciously again. I'd rather he stay away from all the quasi-shooters, though.

 

Kawada in Noah could be interesting. He could probably still get something out of Jun.