Gordy List for Shawn Michaels

[Guest Tim Cooke]

A terrific read.

 

Most of you probably haven't seen this so I figured I would post here.

 

"This one I ran on Shawn Michaels. Original post with no editing for typos and conversational grammar style... I would probably clean it up quite a bit if I was sending it to Dave to publishing in the WON. Still, the post has been discussed on several boards (tOA, A1, DVDVR and possibly here) over the past year, and I can't think of anything in it that I would change in terms of the facts being presented.

 

John

 

===========

[Gordy List] Shawn Michaels

Posted by jdw

12.72.150.143

Eighties Messages

April 18, 2001

03:37:33 U.S. CST

 

1. Was he ever regarded as the best draw in the world? Was he ever regarded as the best draw in his country or his promotion?

Michaels was never the best draw in the world, nor the best in his country. He did have a very good house show run initially after winning the WWF Title, but it should also be noted that ratings and buyrates of the WWF fell behind WCW and Hogan at this time. In addition, WCW passed the WWF in house show attendence as well.

 

He was the best draw in the WWF from Mania '96 through the rest of 1996. After that his drawing position becomes debatable. He was the attendence "draw" for Rumble '97 in Texas, but the buyrate for for his re-match with Sid on that show was far off of the prior year's. After that, Austin rose in the promotion and Hart was back, while the promotion was doing poorly overall. By the time the promotion was righted, Austin was the top draw.

 

Michaels has a seven month run as the top draw in his company, with house show business doing very well before sliding, the buyrates doing very poor, and ratings doing poor. There was a reason why Vince was desperate to resign Bret in the summer and fall of 1996, and it was because business was sliding in the War.

 

Michaels' drawing power in 1997 wasn't strong when facing Austin, Undertaker, Hart and Shamrock. He did a massive buyrate main eventing Mania '98, but Austin and Tyson were at the time given more credit for that, and history seems to have confirmed that was correct.

 

2. Was he an international draw, national draw and/or regional draw?

 

Michaels wasn't a international or regional draw.

 

His national drawing power wasn't strong, nor was it broad across the WWF's business model, nor was it sustained for a long run.

 

3. How many years did he have as a top draw?

 

Michaels had pockets of top drawing power - seven or so months as a house show draw, a good buyrate here and there. Ratings were generally mediocre to bad on his watch. The "comeback" of the WWF starting during his last run with the title, but centering on Austin, Tyson, and McMahon then blooming with Austin and McMahon after Michaels was out of the picture.

 

4. Was he ever regarded as the best worker in the world? Was he ever regarded as the best worker in his country or in his promotion?

 

There never was any consensus while he was active that Michaels was the best worker in the world. His prime years (1991-96) ran up against the like of Liger, Kobashi, Kawada and Misawa. You may find some people who thought he was the best, but the consensus overwhelmingly pointed at one of those four, and usually most of them being rated above Michaels in any given year.

 

He was generally thought of as one of the best workers in the US, but it's harder to pinpoint going to the next level and a consensus existing of him being the best. He came up during the Flair Era, and Flair was generally thought of as the consensus best through 1992. In 1992 and 1993 Vader rode a strong tide of being throught of as the great american worker. By 1993 Eddie Guerrero was working in the US, by 1994 Benoit was working in the US, and by 1995 Rey Jr. and Psicosis were turning up on ECW TV after having worked in the US for some time prior to that. By 1996 and Michaels' run of strong PPV mains, Rey, Eddie, Benoit and Dragon were all working in WCW regularly. In 1997 Michaels was losing his smile and then having problems with Hart, spending a large amount of time out of the ring.

 

Looking back at the WON and Torch worker polls, Michaels was ranked among the top US workers, but not really #1. Flair, Vader, Benoit and even Sabu (in 1994) finished above him. The consensus opinion seemed to hold back on putting him #1.

 

As far as being the best in his promotion, he probably was the best worker in a very poor AWA. Hennig took the next step to being a excellent worker when he turned heel, at which point the Rockers were heading out of town for the first time. By the time they came back to the AWA, either Michaels or Hennig was the best worker in the company until they jumped. Once in the WWF, Shawn and Hennig probably worked harder night-in, night-out that any of the top workers in the WWF, at least until Flair showed up. Many workers, such as Bret, dogged it on house shows but cranked it up on PPVs. In contrast, Michaels tended to put on very good house show matches in addition to cranking it up on PPVs. Since Hennig was working singles matches to Michaels' tags, and often against very tough opponents like Hogan and Kerry Von Erich, one probably would rate Hennig above Michaels up to the injury in mid 1991. The old WON annual worker polls in those years seems to confirm this, as it had Hennig 24-12-5 in 1988-90, with Michaels 56-9-17. Overall Hennig was ahead in those years. Michaels #9 rating in 1989 appeared to tie into the Rockers' rivalry with the Brainbusters, which also was the year Arn rose to his peak position on the list. Flair came into the WWF soon after Hennig went out with the injury. Flair was rated one slot ahead of Shawn when the Poll moved over to the Torch in 1992. Flair was gone at the begining of 1993, and this seems finally to be Shawn's spot as the #1 worker in the promotion. Bret was the only other contender for the spot from 1993-95, and as indicated above, Bret as a rule dogged it on house shows while Michaels didn't. Mitigating this is (i) Shawn did take a decent amount of time off in those three years with the walk out and the beat-down, and (ii) Bret could get inspired on house shows when his position was challenged with the prime example being his good house show series with Yoko. But from 1993-95 it would be safe to say Shawn was the best worker in the WWF.

 

1996 is a tricky year for Shawn as he had the strong PPV matches, but now thought it was okay to dog the house shows once he got on top. His 6-7 minute matches with Vader on the house show circut were embarassments, as Vader truly wanted to work in them. That hardly was the only series that Shawn went through in a daze, saving his talents for the PPV match. But looking around the promotion there aren't any strong candidates to knock him off the throne. Foley did work quite a bit hard on the house shows, pulled a decent series of PPV matches out of Taker, and had the excellent PPV match with Shawn. Still, Shawn would be the safe pick here.

 

In 1997 Michaels spent too much time on the shelf. In addition, he had subpar PPV performances against Sid and Austin that were entirely the fault of *his* commitment to the matches.

 

One could argue that Shawn was the best worker in the AWA in 1986 and the WWF from 1993-96. Before or after those points is a bit more problematic.

 

5. Was he ever the best worker in his class (sex or weight)? Was he ever one of the top workers in his class?

 

Michaels was never the best worker in his weight class. Someone like Flair, Hennig, Misawa or Kawada was always rated ahead of his. Michaels was one of the top workers in his class for a long run, probably 1986-96 with pockets of time off

 

6. How many years did he have as a top worker?

 

"Top" means a top ten in the world worker for a year, or a candidate for a top ten slot in a year. There aren't 30-40 people who are candidates at the end of the year, but rather 6-7 people who were so good that year that they tend to be obvious choiced, then another 10 or so people who had top flight years was are candiadates for the other 3-4 slots.

 

Michaels was an excellent worker by not later than 1986. What's odd is that he wasn't rated rated was a top worker until 1989. He wasn't rated at all in the WON Poll for 1986, which is very strange. He was #61 and #56 in 1987 and 1988 respectively, which in hindsight seems a bit low. The Rockers were lost in the woods for much of those years, though. Michaels hit the top 10 for the first time in 1989 and remained a top worker though 1996.

 

7. Was he a good worker before his prime? Was he a good worker after his prime?

 

Michaels prime was probably 1993-95, and possibly 1996 if one focuses just on PPVs. He was a top worker for four years before his prime going, and a very good worker for three years prior to that. He was a very good to excellent worker when he felt like it after his prime, but post-prime didn't last long.

 

8. Did he have a large body of excellent matches? Did he have a excellent matches against a variety of opponents?

 

For his era and environment (WWF from 1989-97), Michaels had a large body of excellent matches. The WWF wasn't regularly kicking out excellent-to-great matches, but when they did Michaels and/or Bret Hart tended to be invloved.

 

He had a variety of opponents in those excellent singles matches, ranging from Undertaker, Jannetty, Bret Hart, Owen Hart, Davey Boy, Jeff Jarrett, Foley, Vader, Hall and Nash.

 

9. Did he ever anchor his promotion(s)?

 

He was the anchor to the WWF from 4/96 to 2/97. He then picked up the pieces after Montreal later in 1997, but he was caddying the title to Austin - It was already known that Austin was the new anchor to the WWF.

 

10. Was he effective when pushed at the top of cards?

 

The buyrates were, for the most part, mediocre. Ratings bad. House show good for a while before falling off . All of which has been said earlier. He failed at two of three critical areas for a franchise draw, with the positive in the third area tempered by it being a short term bump. This was all of course contrasted by the performances at the top - high quality on PPV, all be it with very disappointing on house shows. It's a very mixed bag, with more negatives than positives.

 

11. Was he valuable to his promotion before his prime? Was he still valuable to his promotion after his prime?

 

Michaels was a valuable tag worker before his prime. When he was pushed into the IC Title, he moved into his prime. His value after his prime was also mixed - losing his smile, the temoil with Bret, the lower quality of performance, the general feeling that he was a locker room problem. He was a star on some level, but the period after his prime was only about fifteen months, much of it spent on the shelf or in the middle of one problem after another.

 

12. Did he have an impact on a number of strong promotional runs?

 

The WWF already was in their peak 80s run when he joined, and he had little impact on it. The promotion was in decline by the time his push increased.

 

He did have an impact on a strong house show run in the spring of 1996 through the fall of 1996. He did have some role in the begining of the WWF post Montreal "comeback" and the massive buyrate of Mania '98. But overall, for spending a decade with what was the #1 promotion in the US when he entered it, the answer is a surprising "not very much".

 

13. Was he involved in a number of memorable rivalries, feuds or storylines?

 

The Midnight Rockers had a memorable feud with Rose & Summers, something at the time akin to a hot feud in ECW in 1997. The Rockers had a memorable rivalry with the Brainbusters, but it seemed to lacked being "memorable" in a way that the MX vs. R'n'R or MX vs. Fans feuds had. Michaels turned heel on Marty in a very strong angle, but then Marty vanished before the feud took off. Marty did comeback for the title turn in 1993, along with the famous match. He had the two ladder matches with Ramon, and a excellent house show ladder series with Ramon leading to the first PPV one. But the rivalry is more known for the two PPV matches than being a strong feud or storyline. His feud with Bret was mostly out of the ring, and lacked a strong storyline. The three PPV matches were not linked, and tended to be islands. He had a good feud with Undertaker, with the HitC being memorable.

 

For the most part it's the Michaels matches that remain memorable, while the feuds or storylines fade.

 

14. Was he effective working on the mic, working storylines or working angles?

 

Michaels was very inconsistant on the mic. If he had a period of being consistantly good, it was prior to 1995. He got praised at times in 1996 and 1997 for mic work, but regularly got out classed in terms of quality by Austin and Hart. Michaels also didn't really show his ass on the mic after getting the WWF Title for the first time, instead making his opponent look poor. He also had far too many mic spots where he just didn't seem to be in any condition to be on the mic, like the "serious" interview prior to Rumble '97.

 

He really wasn't strong at working a long storyline. He could work very good angles, like the Jannetty one, but ones like the split with Diesel he wasn't very good in.

 

Overall, he tended to be overrated in micwork, working storylines and doing angles, as if people weren't really paying attention to what he was doing.

 

15. Did he play his role(s) effectively during his career?

 

He was terrific as a tag team worker, playing babyface very well. He was even better after the heel turn playing cocky punk writing checks his ass couldn't pay. He was very poor in the build to the Mania '96 match with Bret acting as the annointed one. Vince going goo-goo over him to build him up didn't help, but Shawn also cut some of the poorest promos of his career during that stretch. As the franchise face, his work in the ring when the cameras were rolling showed him performing well, but in promos he was subpar. He was poor in trying to redefine himself after the loss to Sid in 11/96, and after that he didn't seem to be in any condition to play his role in a consistant fashion. He was fair at best at the creation of DX, but was jerking off or or looped most of the time.

 

16. What titles and tournaments did he win? What was the importance of the reigns?

 

He bagged the 1995 and 1996 Rumbles. The Rumbles in those years were the highpoint of the WWF calendar along with Mania. The second was too predictable, and it seems to have begun the period where everyone knew who was going to win. They did have importance, as the Rumble is the top "tourny equivalent" in the US.

 

As for titles:

 

* AWA. World Tag Title (2)

 

Shawn had two short reigns in 1987-88 teaming with Marty Jannetty. Both ended with the (Midnight) Rockers jumping to the WWF, the first one seeing them almost instantly getting tossed out of the WWF.

 

* WWF Tag Title (3)

 

Shawn's one tag title reign with Jannetty was wiped off the books. They lifted the belts from the Hart Foundation, then the promotion ignored when they decided to keep Niedhart. His second reign was with Diesel going over the Headshrinkers, and this one ending two months later with Michaels throwing away the title belt. He had a cup of coffee with the belt again, teaming with Austin to end Owen & Davey Boy's long reign with the belts. Shawn and Bret had problems, leading to Shawn wandered off of TV in a couple of weeks without dropping the belts. He had a fourth touch with the belts in 1995, as he and Diesel won/not-won the belts in a screwy PPV, and they had to give the belts back the next night.

 

* Intercontinental Title (3)

 

He lifted the IC Title from Davey Boy late 1992 and dominated it over two reigns for the next eleven months before walking out on the WWF without dropping the belt. He got the belt back in 1995 from Jeff Jarrett, then forfeit the title three months later due to injuries.

 

* European Title

 

Michaels took the belt from Davey Boy and then "laid down" three months later to Hunter without wrestling.

 

* WWF World Title (3)

 

Michaels beat Bret for the title at Wrestlemania '96 and dominated the title for ten months across two reigns. Sid broke up the first reign with a turn-around title change from Survivors to Rumble. Shawn then lost his smile when asked to drop the title again to Sid in February '97. Shawn regained the title in November '97 from Bret at the famous Montreal match, and dropped it to Austin at Mania '98. His last reign effectively was ended at the '98 Rumble with a back injury.

 

Looking at the importance of the titles:

 

For the Rockers, the AWA Tag Team Title was little more than a stepping stone to getting into the WWF. The AWA was well into its decline at this point, with the Rockers facing mediocre opponents.

 

Michaels brushes with the WWF Tag Title are an odd mix. Four times "winning" the title, and all of them ending screwy ways. The "win" that would have had the greatest meaning was the one of the Hart Foundation in 1990, as the title had a more status back then, and the Harts were had aura of at the time of being the top team in the WWF. In addition, the Rockers lost their only chance to have a run with the WWF tag title. The other win that would have had some meaning was the win over Davey and Owen. Smith & Hart had re-established some stability in the title at the time, and there also was some potential for a storyline relating to his uneasy partnership Austin. Instead Michaels walked. All in all, the tag title reign add up to very little other than the ability to say he held the belt a number of times.

 

The Euro title is more of the same - it's a reign to show he won it, and nothing more.

 

The first IC run of two reigns was key in elevating Michaels as a singles wrestler. The belt was the top "secondary" title in the country at that point, even though the WWF was sliding into its down period. The third reign was there to set up the ladder match re-match with Ramon. It ended before anything of additional interest could be done. Overall the three reigns are a postive, with one stretch of dominance, and then a second run that started with a well received match and was supported mid-reign with the second classic ladder match.

 

Michaels' stretch of WWF World title dominance from 4/96 to 2/97 was highlighted with a series of critically acclaimed matches. It also was the first point at which the WWF Title became less important than the WCW Title. As discussed elsewhere, there were positives and negatives with that run from both business and work standpoints. The third reign is often cited as the turning point in the "war" with WCW, but that tends to be overrated. WCW was imploding, while Austin vs. McMahon was what pushed the WWF back to dominance.

 

Overall, Michaels has an impressive list of hardware. If one actually looks at them, most of them were meaningless at the time either in the sense that the title was meaningless like the AWA Tag Title or rendered meaningless by the way inwhich the reign unfolded. In addition, far too many had screwy elements to them, in in the winning of the title or in the way the reign ended. The strongest pluses are (i) a good run dominating the IC belt for nearly a year over two reigns, and (ii) a nearly year run as the WWF's franchise champ over two reigns. The biggest overall negative of Michaels title reigns are even seen in those two pluses - both strong runs ended with Michaels walking out on the title and promotion.

 

17. Did he win many honors and awards?

 

He never bagged the WON Wrestler of the Year, finishing runner-up to Misawa and Kobashi in 1995 and 1996. The Rockers did win the 1989 WON Tag Team of the Year award, not only topping Arn & Tully but also ending the three year run of the Midnight Express. The ladder matches finished #1 and #2 for WON MOTY in 1994 and 1995 respectively.

 

He better in the PWI Awards, though was again runner-up in 1995 and 1996, here to Diesel and The Giant. The Rockers never won the PWI Tag Team award, but their 5/17/93 match bagged Michaels the first of four straight PWI MOTY awards. The ladder match won in 1994, he went #1 and #2 in 1995 with the matches vs. Diesel and Jarrett, and then went #1 and #2 again in 1996 with the matches against Hart and Mankind. This four year period is easily a the best run in the history of the PWI MOTY award.

 

Michaels bagged a decent amount of silverware, and most of it was match related.

 

18. Did he get mainstream exposure due to his wrestling fame? Did he get a heavily featured by the wrestling media?

 

Michaels didn't get massive mainstream exposure at the level of Hogan, Piper, Savage, Austin, Rock, Foley or even Chyna.

 

He did get strong media pushes from both the Apter mags and the newsletters.

 

19. Was he a top tag team wrestler?

 

From 1986-91 he was one of the top tag team wrestlers around. It was with one long term partner, and almost all of it was spent as a face. From the start he was seen as the better half of the team. Michaels than moved into the singles division and was successful to the point that he never worked regularly as a tag team wrestlers again.

 

20. Was he innovative?

 

People point to his use of sleaze in DX as innovative. For the most part that was borrowed from ECW, and even the crotch chop was lifted from Hall & Nash. He was innovative in ladder match spots.

 

21. Was he influential?

 

There are a number of younger workers who point to him as an influence. Isolating specific examples of influence, and how those differ from what other peers of Michaels were doing, is a bit mroe difficult. He did have an influence in getting over the ladder match, perhaps akin to Sabu getting over tables. Along with Bret Hart he did had an impact on Vince being willing to push at the top wrestlers who weren't large heavyweights. This impact has been limited as we have yet to see a wave of wrestlers the size of Bret and Shawn taking over the top of the cards.

 

22. Did he make the people and workers around him better?

 

For much of his career Michaels madw opponents and his partner Marty look better than they really were. Once he got to the top at Mania '96, he was very selective in who he chose to make look better in the ring or on the mic. In fact he had a habit of going out of his way to make other people look poor in mic spots, even when he was suppose to be playing heel.

 

Outside of the ring from 1995 on, he tended to make people around him worse. The Clique was roundly cited as a major negative in the locker room and on the road, causing Vince to be seen as losing control of the locker room.

 

23. Did he do what was best for the promotion? Did he show a commitment to wrestling?

 

Michaels didn't care about the AWA, as he and Jannetty used it as a stepping stone twice. Given the AWA at the time, this was generally accepted behavior. Once in the WWF the second time, he did tend to do what was best for the promotion through 1992. At some point in 1993 that went out the window as Michaels tended to do what was best for Michaels the rest of his career. He had a string of screwing up plans, disrupting the promotion, and progressivly getting worse as time went by. What's odd is that through the end of 1995, Shawn had a very strong commitment to wrestling. Despite becoming increasingly goofy and difficult to deal with, he did go out and perform every night. From 1996, the commitment hasn't been there, except when the camera is on and the match is booked for Shawn to look good. Even then, he has at time allowed personal problems to impact performances, usually for mic spots but also the Rumble '97.

 

24. Is there any reason to believe that he was better or worse than he appeared?

 

His injury came at a relatively young wrestling age, at a time when he was still a very good worker. On the other hand he worked a style that ran the risk of injury, was already showing a decline in commitment to wrestling, and was faced with clear evidence that Austin was "The Man" in the WWF. It's likely that the future wasn't rosey for Shawn even if he didn't get injured.

 

By and large, Shawn didn't have the greatest of workers to go out there and work with, nor did he wrestle in a "work based" federation. Given a better grade of worker, it's possible he would have found his Steamboat or Windham out there to work a classic series with as Flair was able to. That said, Shawn's biggest strength in working a match was being able to put on the "Shawn Show". It's not clear how Michaels would have worked with a true peer, and it he would have been willing to fully co-operate with such a person to put on a Flair-Steamboat or Flair-Windham type of match.

 

Looking at the list as a whole, Michaels strengths are work. He was a top worker for a very long time, and for most of that time a very hard working wrestler. He also had a high number of excellent and/or memorable matches with a wide variety of opponent, especially given his era and environment.

 

His negatives are a lack of true and lasting drawing power, his very short run as a anchor for his promotion, his problems anchoring his promotion, and his unwillingness to do what was best for his promotion for more than half a decade. Some of these continued even after injury forced him out in 1998, and are being flashed now that he's about to comeback.

 

As a top worker, he falls well short of the Flair level of being the best in the world and even "best in his country" is a problematic claim. He falls closer to the Steamboat level of worker, at least as far as where people rated him - one of the best in the world and in his country for a period of time, but never quite able to crack the "best" spot. Both were hard workers for a long time, even in a promotion where hard work wasn't a requiremen.

 

Rickey of course bourght other positives to the table, while Shawn brought a bag ful of negatives.

 

The case for Shawn is not the slam dunk pick people like to say he is.

 

John Williams"

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Tim, where did you find this? I searched rspw for it the other day with no luck.

 

Anyway, I've already seen it, but good job posting it here. Deffinitely the most accurate and straight-forward read on Michaels' career that I've ever seen.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

It is over at Wrestling Classics. I know there was a Michaels post about his drawing power over here a few weeks ago and wanted to make sure that is be clarified that he *was not* a draw.

 

Tim

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Yeah, I remember that. I wish I could have found this at the time. Thanks, though, hopefully this will finally clear up that issue so I never have to argue about it again.

 

*saves for future use*

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

You should have posted the entire thread - a must-read.

 

www.otherarena.com features other gordy lists - one on Kobashi and others.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

There are plenty of other Gordy lists worth reading, but this is probably the only one that everyone on these boards needs to read, as proven by the thread Tim referred to that happened a few weeks ago. There's just a boat load of misconceptions about Michaels as a draw and, to some extent, as a worker.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

I doubt anyone will really read this one since it is long and actually makes sense.

 

So posting the whole thread would even defer people more.

 

Tim

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Yeah, Heaven forbid anyone take the time out of their "Is Albert a better worker than Sid was?" discussions to read something logical.

[Guest bob_barron]

Was there any need for any petty bitching and whining?

 

No.

 

If people are interested in your thread they're interested in your thread. If they're not, they're not. No need to cry about it

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

But most of the good stuff is in the responding posts.

 

If you post it... They will read.

 

http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimate...ic;f=7;t=000018

 

On work?

 

In 1990, Shawn wasn't among the 10 listed in the Most Outstanding Award.

 

In 1991, Shawn wasn't among the 18 listed in the Most Outstanding Award.

 

In 1992, Shawn was 9th behind Liger, Toyota, Kobashi, Kawada, Flair, Bret, Hase and Kyoko.

 

In 1993, Shawn was 8th behind Kobashi, Toyota, Kawada, Liger, Vader, Bret and Hokuto.

 

In 1994, Shawn was 6th behind Kobashi, Sabu, Benoit, Sasuke and Kawada.

 

In 1995, Shawn was 6th behind Toyota, Eddy, Rey, Benoit and Kobashi.

 

In 1996 after all those great PPV main events, Shawn was 6th behind Rey, Toyota, Kobashi, Benoit and Ohtani.

 

In 1997, Shawn was 7th behind Misawa, Rey, Ohtani, Kobashi, Kanemoto and Eddy.

 

Even in his prime, the WON Voters never put Shawn in the Top 5, let alone challenging for #1.

 

Now I'm not going to defend WON voters. After all, Sabu not only was runner-up to Kawada in the WOTY in 1994, but chased Kobashi for Most Outstanding. But it is telling that Shawn never was even the #1 vote getter among US wrestlers, *and* in fact that at least two people who worked in the US ranked ahead of him each year.

 

In the Gordy List I gave Shawn credit for being a Top 10 worker at his peak, but also pointed out that (i) he never was #1 in the world or even challenging for it, and (ii) it is very difficult to identify any sustained period where he was the best worker in the US. I didn't use the WON Most Outstanding Awards to determine this. But the WON Most Outstanding Award results *are not* inconsistent with my statement. In fact, they are consistent with my statement.

 

-JDW

[Guest Dr. Wrestlingphysics]

A very interesting read.

 

(and yes, I did read it all!)

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Yea, thanks for posting the link. I forgot about that one section

 

For all the whining, you posted whining about us whining. Now that doesn't make too much sense.

 

Tim, noting that Shawn was a notorious whiner.

[Guest bob_barron]

I just thought your post was pointless so I let you know.

 

Bob, who also hates HBK and was rooting for HHH at Survivor Suries when it came down to those two

[Guest godthedog]

very interesting indeed. i'll have to go there & find out if there's one on bret or steamboat.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

From what I remember, jdw has done one's on Kobashi, Sting, and someone else. Others have done them on Atlantis and Takada. Frank Jewett is supposivly working on one that will be huge for a huge star.

 

Tim

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Am I the only one that found it odd that they ranked him ahead of Bret in 1994, and even ranked Sabu ahead of Bret in 1994?

 

Still a good read, and I don't really think anyone is stupid enough or intoxicated enough to call to ever have called Michaels a "draw".

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

I don't really think anyone is stupid enough or intoxicated enough to call to ever have called Michaels a "draw".

You'd be surprised.

 

Post this on the 411 or Rajah forums, for instance, and see what happens.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Or try these forrums.

 

Like I said before, there was a thread posted here a few weeks ago dedicated to convincing everyone that Shawn *was* a draw.

 

Which is why the this post *did* have a point, Bob. Seperating fact from fiction is a good thing.

 

Tim, any word on where I can find those other Gordy lists? I've found a bunch, but none of them done by John Williams, other than the Michaels one.

[Guest bob_barron]

I didn't mean the beginning post was pointless, I meant Tim's post about people not reading the thread was.

 

The guy who tried to convince people HBK was a draw had a lot of his facts wrong and was quickly laughed at and disproven

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

The real issue is with Michaels as a worker rather than Shawn as a draw.

 

But I have 'encountered' some people who believe HBK has been a good draw - they use HBK vs. Austin WM 14 as an example, and ratings picked up after SS 97 when Shawn won the belt - but it's obvious that other factors influenced the ratings jump more than HBK being involved.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

http://www.otherarena.com/cgi/post.cgi?655...07&2&4&eighties

[Guest godthedog]

EDIT: stupid comment narrowly averted.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

^^^ For other gordy list links.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Probably in the archives over at tOA. You should get your ass over there. jdw, Jewett, Coey, and others are all there.

 

Easily the best Wrestling Board on the net.

 

Tim

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

Or try these forrums.

 

Like I said before, there was a thread posted here a few weeks ago dedicated to convincing everyone that Shawn *was* a draw.

 

Which is why the this post *did* have a point, Bob. Seperating fact from fiction is a good thing.

 

Tim, any word on where I can find those other Gordy lists? I've found a bunch, but none of them done by John Williams, other than the Michaels one.

You think it would be bad here? On those boards you'd get all kinds of revisionist history going on, and at a much faster pace too.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

"The guy who tried to convince people HBK was a draw had a lot of his facts wrong and was quickly laughed at and disproven." - bob barron

 

From what I remember, the post went for pages long in debate, so I think it still needed a bit of resolution.

 

Plus, I listed this as a source durring that discussion, and I remember there was someone who wanted to see it for conformation. And here it is.

 

"The real issue is with Michaels as a worker rather than Shawn as a draw." - Rudo

 

Agreed there. A lot of people throw Michaels in the same boat as Hart, Flair, and the like. Meanwhile, guys like Barry Windham, Akira Taue and El Samurai are forgotten.

 

"Probably in the archives over at tOA. You should get your ass over there. jdw, Jewett, Coey, and others are all there.

 

Easily the best Wrestling Board on the net." - Tim

 

*nod*

 

Williams is probably the most knowledgable wrestling guru I'll ever encounter online.

 

"You think it would be bad here? On those boards you'd get all kinds of revisionist history going on, and at a much faster pace too. " - Mulato Heat

 

I don't frequent those boards, so I wouldn't know, I just think a lot of people on this board have an incorrect perception of Michaels' history as a draw.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I wouldn't call TOA the best board on the net - just due to the lack of activity. Although, the quality of activity is very high.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Just the opposite. If you stop by and don't do anything to troll, you can find the most stimulating conversation I have found on the net. I have learned so much from jdw and the others at tOA.

 

No revisionist history. In fact, when things like that are brought up, they are usually shot down so fast with the correct facts.

 

I frequent these boards to chat and to help spread what I have learned from others. Not to sound almighty or anything, just why I am here as well as there.

 

Tim

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Yeah, I haven't found a more interesting place for discusion. There's a ton of incredibly smart people who always have something intelligent/funny/memorable to say, and just lurking there has given me a lot of new insight into wrestling. Really a wonderfull group.