Ultimo vs Ohtani

[Guest blachuuh_monkey]

I just got done watching the 1995 J-cup and I was wandering if someone could explain to me the point (if there is any) to the no selling tombstone spot right in the middle of the match between Shinjiro Ohtani vs Ultimo Dragon. They had a really nice match going on and then they proceeded to do that spot out of nowhere and afterwards continued on and finished the match. I am no Japanese expert or anything so I might not understand it but it seemed to be totally rediculous to me. I'm thinking it was there equivalent to a striking battle between 2 AJ heavyweights which would make no sense to me because a strike is something you can trade back and forth and sell without actually being knocked down or out but a tombstone is a manuever that totally makes no sense to just get up from like it didn't even hurt, right in the middle of the match, and then proceed to do it to your opponent (twice). It probably bothered me more than it should seeing as who were involved and how great they are. Just let me know.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

It is just that, no selling.

 

Go see 8/4/96 for their great match.

 

Tim

[Guest blachuuh_monkey]

If 8/4/96 is the date for the J-Crown than I have it and it was much better. I was just curious if there was anything to it or not.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

No, it's just stupid buggery done by two guys that you wouldn't normally expect it from.

 

Thank God they had that rematch.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

Tombstone Piledrivers aren't killer moves anyway, it's sort of like the Taue Chokeslam discussion. Taker's Tombstone was death, the Japan juniors used it regularly and it wasn't treated like a devastating move. No-selling is akin to spots and a wow factor, they no-sell to get an I-can't-believe-that-move-had-no-effect pop. It's unsound and goofy wrestling but I tolerate it to certain extents, it maintains an unpredictibility where a move that should put a guy down may or may not.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

What does that have to do with the now infamous "Taue Discusion?"

 

On second thought, lets just avoid taking that trip again.

 

And the finish to the match right before Ohtani/Dragon (Benoit/Jericho) was a second rope tombstone. Yes, that's far more dangerous, but it does not constitute no-selling three regular ones. If a super-version ends a match, then three regular versions should be sold as well.

 

I have no patience for that kind of nonsense. Completely ruined the match for me.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"What does that have to do with the now infamous "Taue Discusion?

On second thought, lets just avoid taking that trip again."

 

That was a mighty fine trip though.

 

"And the finish to the match right before Ohtani/Dragon (Benoit/Jericho) was a second rope tombstone. Yes, that's far more dangerous, but it does not constitute no-selling three regular ones. If a super-version ends a match, then three regular versions should be sold as well."

 

Yup, just bad selling.

 

"I have no patience for that kind of nonsense. Completely ruined the match for me."

 

Kobashi goofiness is more tolerable than that sometimes.

 

Now where is that Taue thread again?

 

Tim

[Guest DragonflyKid]

It had to do with how moves are built up to a level of credibility, I was just stating the fact that regular Tombstones aren't as lethal to the juniors as they were in the WWF when Taker was putting guys away with them. People said Taue's chokeslam didn't look devastating enough but they didn't understand how it was built up and made to seem devastating.

 

I wasn't condoning the no-selling of the Tombstones but just bringing up the fact that a relative newbie might think the goofiness in that match was more than a no-selling of a semi-credible move and not the no-selling of a lethal one. Both are nonsensical but no-selling a semi-credible move isn't outrageous. Kanemoto no-selling a Liger top rope Brainbuster late in a match is outrageous.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

I'm waiting for Kobashi/Misawa 2002 which will be the next stage of evolution in their series. Kobashi must no-sell a Tiger Driver '91 and kick out of the Emerald Frosion while Misawa Kicks out of the Burning Hammer to further the wondrous psychology of once-lethal moves losing their effectiveness over time. What new death-move must they introduce to put their opponent away? ...Stay tuned.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"I'm waiting for Kobashi/Misawa 2002 which will be the next stage of evolution in their series. Kobashi must no-sell a Tiger Driver '91 and kick out of the Emerald Frosion while Misawa Kicks out of the Burning Hammer to further the wondrous psychology of once-lethal moves losing their effectiveness over time. What new death-move must they introduce to put their opponent away? ...Stay tuned. "

 

Let me know when you see this.

 

Tim

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I'm looking forward to seeing Kobashi take three Emerald Frosions and then no sell Misawa's new top rope version.

 

Yes, compared to Kanemoto, master of nonsensical selling, Ohtani/Dragon was pretty mild. However, it still made me give up on the match, which had plenty of other faults as well. As a big fan of Ohtani, and his selling, in particular, it's really annoying seeing him hop onto the goofy band wagon and no selling head-drops for fun. I thought better of Dragon, too.

 

Like I said, they did more than enough to redeem themselves the following year.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I love the match, but then the whole goofy selling thing really doesn't bother me anywhere near as much as it probably should. The 96 match is better though.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

There's 2 things I can't stand in this world. And that's customers at my work and no selling.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I think sometimes we let things bug us too much. YES, that was stupid to no-sell Tombstones and then get pinned by a super version. However, you shouldn't let that ruin the *entire* match for you. I'm sure there were many redeeming factors as well.

 

Anyway... the point is... mistakes will be made, but nothing is perfect, so why get angry, just enjoy it.

 

 

It was probobly better than anything over here ANYWAY.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

It wouldn't have been so bad if it had come from, say, Kanemoto and Takaiwa, but I've come to expect more of those two.

 

And there were redeeming qualities, but there were also other foul-ups as well. Ultimo blowing spots, for one. It's not a bad match, just a dissapointment, considering what they were capable of.

[Guest gansobomber]

I remember hearing about Masao Orihara and El Samurai where they proceeded to no sell their Pile Drivers.

 

Now arent Piledrivers more lethal than Tombstones?

 

Care to explain that?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

No, I haven't seen any reason to think one is held above the other. As with any move, it depends on how its utalized. Orihara and Samurai did the same stupid Piledriver Duel, but if it's used effectively it can be a near fall move just as easilly. Aja Kong's use of the piledriver is a good example of this.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

The badly overshot sky twister press at the end of that match bothered me more than the tombstone nonsense, but that's just because I detest a blown spot more than anything else in wrestling.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Oh yes.......and I can't remember which one it was but he was wrapping the others leg up and he ended up tripping over it and falling into the ropes.

Oh well they redeemed themselves at J*Crown didn't they?

[Guest blachuuh_monkey]

Blown spots do bother me more than no-selling but depending on the move not by that much.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Yes and I like the way the Ultimo didn't REPEAT THE SPOT when he completely missed the sky twister. He just jumped up and hit the La Magistral cradle for the pin. Rather than heading back up like some idiots would probably do.....

[Guest blachuuh_monkey]

Sabu tends to do that sort of thing a lot which is why I have never been a nig fan of his.

[Guest gansobomber]

Sabu is FAMOUS for that sort of thing.

 

Y'now where he heads up twice or thrice to moonsault someone.

 

Really dumb, and people actually appreciate it....

[Guest blachuuh_monkey]

I have no problem with him moonsaulting someone three times in a row I just hate it when he blows spots all the time and proceeds to redo them which he has always done a lot. It is one of the big reasons why he never made it in the big companies, in my opinon, because it makes him look very indyish which is something they don't tend to like.

[Guest gansobomber]

No I mean doing three moonsaults BECAUSE he missed.

[Guest blachuuh_monkey]

that just sucks to me. Of course it's just one person's opinion. I don't get a kick out of seeing people fuck up spots but to each his own.