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Guest Black Tiger

MOTYC

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Guest Black Tiger

Has anyone seen any of the following matches from this year? These were all pimped as possible MOTYC's.

 

Lyger/Tanaka vs. Kaemoto/AKIRA (7/4/02)

 

Kanemoto vs. Hashi (8/29/20)

 

Lyger/Tanaka vs. Kikuchi/Kanemaru (8/29/02)

 

Kojima vs. Tenryu (2/24/02)

 

Nagata vs. Chono (10/26/02)

 

Misawa vs. Takayama (9/23/02)

 

I personally am not fond of the Nagata vs. Chono match, but it takes a lot of paitence to sit thought a sixty minute draw, when you know its a draw. I haven't seen any of the others at the moment.

 

Zach Arnold cliams that Mutoh vs. Kawada is a top candidate in Japan for MOTYC so that says a lot about the Japanese fans.

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Guest Tim Cooke

Lyger/Tanaka vs. Kaemoto/AKIRA (7/4/02)

- Liger carrying 3 guys being a MOTYC? I don't think so.

 

Kanemoto vs. Hashi (8/29/20)

- E gads.

 

Lyger/Tanaka vs. Kikuchi/Kanemaru (8/29/02)

- Probably terrific storyline match with great heat. Outside chance it may be a MOTYC. I would probably bet it is ****-****1/4.

 

Kojima vs. Tenryu (2/24/02)

- Nope, not even close.

 

Nagata vs. Chono (10/26/02)

- One hour of them makes my head hurt.

 

Misawa vs. Takayama (9/23/02)

- Probably "Fun"---- Fun doesn't equal a MOTYC.

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Guest RickyChosyu

"Lyger/Tanaka vs. Kaemoto/AKIRA (7/4/02)"

 

Depending on how much time Liger spent in the ring, this could be really mediocre or good-sliding towards mediocre. I don't think it's MOTY, though.

 

"Kanemoto vs. Hashi (8/29/20)"

 

Huh?

 

"Lyger/Tanaka vs. Kikuchi/Kanemaru (8/29/02)"

 

I enjoyed the 2/24 tag and liked it quite a bit. It was the same guys accept with Inoue subbed in for Tanaka, so I'd guess this would be on the same levle.

 

"Kojima vs. Tenryu (2/24/02)"

 

Too pedestrian to be called a MOTYC, I think. I don't really get the hype around these two, to be honest.

 

"Nagata vs. Chono (10/26/02)"

 

I'm not sure who's more bonkers: Chono himself in a one hour draw, or the wacko's who nominated it for MOTY.

 

"Misawa vs. Takayama (9/23/02)"

 

Haven't seen. I enjoyed their GHC finals match, though.

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Guest Tim Cooke

Otani/Tanaka are an above average tag team that I would watch on occasion. The singles match was in the ***1/2 range maybe.

 

2002 has SUCKED for MOTYC.

 

I have seen maybe 3.

 

3/30/02 Daniels v Dragon (which is probably more at ****1/4 but on a good day I could give it ****1/2)

 

7/27/02 Williams v Daniels v Spanky v Ki (4 ways SUCK. This somehow doesn't and actually rules enough that I wouldn't be afraid to pimp this)

 

9/2/02 Guerrero/Bucannero v Vampiro/Shocker (Easily the Lucha MOTY and the best Lucha Match I have seen in a long time...get the unedited version)

 

Others that possibly rank up there:

 

AmDrag v Styles (11/9/02) (I HATED STYLES TNA work and thought he was just becoming a bad spot/stiff Lo Ki worker. Dragon pulled the best out of him here and Styles worked excellent. He brought that same stuff with him on 12/7)

 

And for workers of the Year:

 

American Dragon easily.

 

Best One Night Performance:

 

Paul London (12/7/02 v EZ Money and American Dragon)

 

The 2002 AJW Joshi has driven me nuts. The 5/26/02 Ito v Momoe was my last straw. Just such an 1999 All Japanish approach with kicking out of everything..blah blah blah.

 

Tim

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I have a question for you guys...

 

I know the RWTL this year sucked the meat missile and all, but one of the matches I was looking forward to hearing about was Kojima and Kea vs. Ohtani and Tanaka. Was that any good?

 

Oh, and if you wanna talk ROH, I agree with the 3/30/02 Dragon/Daniels match. That was a FANTABULOUS match.

 

But yeah, this year has not been kind in the ol' MOTYC department to our dear xenophobic friends across the Pacific. Let's see if 2003 can't be a better year, eh?

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Guest permagrinning

xenophobic friends across the sea.... you talking the americans or japanese? Far as I can tell, the two seem to have a pop culture fascination with each other.

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Guest Black Tiger

I listed matches pretty much based on what different people had said about potential MOTYC. The only match I've actually seen is the draw and I didn't really enjoy it.

 

Zach Arnold also gave Takayama vs. Ogawa from 9/7/02 ****, there is no way that match is any better than **1/2 and even that is stretching it.

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Guest Black Tiger

has anyone seen the 60 minute draw with Tenzan/Chono vs. Nishimura/Nakanshi? I hear that's supposed to be pretty good.

 

El Dandy, I've seen almost nothing from 2002 but the best I've seen is probably Kanemoto vs. Tiger Mask 4 from september at about ***1/2

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Guest PlatypusFool

No, I am yet to see a match that hit **** this year.

 

A handful of those much vaunted smackdown matches came close, some of the much vaunted NJPW matches have come close. Kojima vs. Tenryu has come the closest, so that is, at the moment, my MOTY, although that was, at best ***3/4 (to my mind, I'm not getting back into the debate about this one that I've already played out).

 

2002 has been a pretty bad one for wrestling in general, although I'm still digging NJPW, and love it despite the lack of truly high end matches.

 

Edit in response to BT;

 

"has anyone seen the 60 minute draw with Tenzan/Chono vs. Nishimura/Nakanshi? I hear that's supposed to be pretty good."

 

Close but no cigar. Very good storyline, and a very good way to put over a few of your top prospects for the future. The crowd was well into it and everyhting, but sections of the match just went so long. You know that trick in NJPW tag matches where one person is put in a submission hold, their partner comes and tries to help them, but gets trapped in another submission hold by the opposing partner before he can reach? They do that repeatedly for fucking ages, it really grinded me down.

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Guest Evil Ash

I think that one hour tag draw only works if you buy into Nakanashi blowing out his knee. Then the drama really comes in. I, frankly, didn't, and had a hard time understanding his selling of that particular limb.

 

Plus, Nishimura no-sold about 4 nut shots. Someone told me he had them removed. Hmmmm....

 

It was still fun, though.

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Guest Nookingtons21

Lyger/Tanaka vs. Kaemoto/AKIRA (7/4/02)

 

No. Good thanks to Lyger.

 

Kanemoto vs. Hashi (8/29/20)

 

No. Murahama v. Naruse and the tag match from the same show are better.

 

Lyger/Tanaka vs. Kikuchi/Kanemaru (8/29/02)

 

This was really good, but I'd struggle to call it ****.

 

Kojima vs. Tenryu (2/24/02)

 

No. Decent.

 

Nagata vs. Chono (10/26/02)

 

Hell no. Chono and time limit draw don't exactly go together.

 

Misawa vs. Takayama (9/23/02)

 

No, but fun enough.

 

"9/2/02 Guerrero/Bucannero v Vampiro/Shocker (Easily the Lucha MOTY and the best Lucha Match I have seen in a long time...get the unedited version)"

 

I agree with this but how much Lucha do you watch to say this is the best you've seen in a "long time".

 

"AmDrag v Styles (11/9/02) (I HATED STYLES TNA work and thought he was just becoming a bad spot/stiff Lo Ki worker. Dragon pulled the best out of him here and Styles worked excellent. He brought that same stuff with him on 12/7)"

 

I'll wait for the tape. Seemed like a Dragon match with Styles just going for the ride, but it was really good.

 

"American Dragon easily."

 

Bucanero and Guerrero too.

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Guest gansobomber

What? Where's the Otani?Tanaka match? I personally thought the match carried a lot of emotion with both guys basically killing each other.

 

Tell me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the match as a whole (crowd respone and all) come into scrutiny for the MOTY or just the wrestling aspect?

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Guest Jubuki

Crowd heat doesn't decide whether or not a wrestling match is good. It can make it seem more epic than it actually is, or it can be a sign that the crowd is/isn't into what the workers are doing, but if a match is any good, there's almost always a reason for the action that goes beyond "the crowd will pop for this." Take that for what you will.

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Guest gansobomber

I'm not talking about the crowd will pop for this action, but the Otani/ Gurerro style fighting which draws heel headt easily, for example. Couple that with a ****1/2 match by "wrestling" purist standards, would it be a MOTYC?

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Guest gansobomber

What I meant to say is, shouldn't the crowd heat be a factor in the match? At least how well the wrestlers worked the crowd has to play a part.

 

I mean come on, wrestling IS entertainment isn't ti? However stiff someone works, how ever well he emotes, unless its shoot wrestling, shouldn't the crowd involvement taken into account?

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Guest Daddy X

Lyger/Tanaka vs. Kaemoto/AKIRA (7/4/02)

I enjoyed this match a lot actually... lots of fun to watch. Maybe a Match of the Year "Candidate" but definatly not the Match of the Year.

 

Kanemoto vs. Hashi (8/29/20)

Again, I had lots of fun watching this and found myself marking out for Hashi. But it's not a MOTYC.

 

Lyger/Tanaka vs. Kikuchi/Kanemaru (8/29/02)

Now here's a match of the year candidate. Very good stuff.

 

Kojima vs. Tenryu (2/24/02)

I liked it but it doesn't compare to their 7/17 match.

 

Nagata vs. Chono (10/26/02)

Eh.... It was really hard to sit through especially since I knew it was a draw. Fun at times though.

 

Misawa vs. Takayama (9/23/02)

Didn't really enjoy this too much. Not a MOTYC.

 

Like someone said above, fun doesn't equal MOTYC. The only match from the list that is a contender is Lyger/Tanaka vs. Kikuchi/Kanemaru and even that is debatable.

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Guest RickyChosyu
What I meant to say is, shouldn't the crowd heat be a factor in the match? At least how well the wrestlers worked the crowd has to play a part.

 

I mean come on, wrestling IS entertainment isn't ti? However stiff someone works, how ever well he emotes, unless its shoot wrestling, shouldn't the crowd involvement taken into account?

The crowd heat is far from the most important aspect of having a good match. There have been solid matches that crowds couldn't have cared less for and there have been terrible matches with nuclear heat.

 

A MOTYC should have a lot more going for it than a hot crowd, basically.

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Guest wolverine

I don't care how hot the crowd is if the wrestling itself is actually on a very high level. Take for example Yoshida vs. AKINO 1/17/99 and Aja vs. Satomura 9/15/99, which I consider to be the best two matches of that year. Both lacked heat (the Yoshida match didn't have any heat at all, but that was typical of Arsion crowds, especially in a nightclub setting), while the Aja match built so well that they were popping huge for Meiko's fiery comebacks. I'll take these matches any day of the week to Misawa and Kobashi attempting to cripple each other in front of a hot crowd.

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Guest Jubuki

Yes - watch Kojima/Tenryu and Mutoh/Kawada from this year. In both cases, the crowd wants to see the challenger win badly. So badly, in fact, that they pop for anything they do that might get them to a win, whether the match sucks or not (and both do indeed suck). And then there's Tamura/Kohsaka, where the crowd is virtually dead throughout, but when you hear them raise up and start screaming at a near-fall, you realize they're entirely wrapped up - and rightfully so - in the work that's getting to the near-falls. Crowd heat is The Red Herring in wrestling; it makes it very easy for otherwise sensible people to think of a match as great, even when it isn't.

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Guest TheyCallMeMark

Yeah. I get tricked by crowd heat all the time. It always makes me think that the match is better than it is. Lack of heat never bothers me though. I prefer it so I can concentrate.

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Guest Tim Cooke

I think a match that really connects with the crowd that is actually a great match will have sustained heat regardless.

 

All the great AJPW matches have the crowd heat.

 

I tend to believe the really GREAT US matches are able to generate more heat than any other matches.

 

I point to the Midnight Express/Fantastics series, the Midnight Express/Southern Boys 7/7/90 match, 2/29/92 Windham/Rhodes v Austin/Zybisko, 1992 Wargames, 10/26/97 Eddy v Rey, etc.

 

Hogan/Rock from WM got tons of heat but that was from a crowd in which Tony Shiavonie would call "Strange" (in reference to Canadian crowds) plus the Nostaglia perspective. Hell, the match was laid out smartly so I don't even complain about that.

 

Tim

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Guest wolverine

Not exactly on topic, but while looking through some old Wrestling Observers, I found this excerpt from 3/9/98 that I thought was pretty entertaining:

 

2/15 ALL JAPAN WOMEN: This was a television taping which took place after midnight at the Fuji TV network studios in downtown Tokyo. The building, which was about half the size of the ECW Arena, was packed with 3,000 people turned away. Because the studio taping concept, once the standard for pro wrestling, is again something new, the atmosphere, something AJW television for the most part has been lacking over the past year, was really good and this had to be considered overall a successful show. They apparently had several celebrities that had no clue about wrestling as part of the announcing team. 1. Manami Toyota pinned Tomoko Watanabe in 10:51 with a Japanese Ocean Cyclone suplex off the ropes. Crowd was really hot for this match. Toyota basically did the same stuff she's been doing now for ten years, but there's nothing new to her these days. Her stuff was so inventive when she was coming up, and it's now like watching her is passe. When Toyota did a spin bump off a clothesline, one of the celebrity announcers literally freaked out. When Toyota did her running springboard flip plancha out, she didn't get the height she used to so she can't just jump to the top rope anymore so kind of springboarded off her knees instead. ***....

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Guest gansobomber
I think a match that really connects with the crowd that is actually a great match will have sustained heat regardless.

 

All the great AJPW matches have the crowd heat.

 

I tend to believe the really GREAT US matches are able to generate more heat than any other matches.

 

I point to the Midnight Express/Fantastics series, the Midnight Express/Southern Boys 7/7/90 match, 2/29/92 Windham/Rhodes v Austin/Zybisko, 1992 Wargames, 10/26/97 Eddy v Rey, etc.

 

Hogan/Rock from WM got tons of heat but that was from a crowd in which Tony Shiavonie would call "Strange" (in reference to Canadian crowds) plus the Nostaglia perspective. Hell, the match was laid out smartly so I don't even complain about that.

 

Tim

Exactly what I mean. I dont want to say that crowd heat is important.

 

I just say that it matters. A match without any crowd heat is not great, as such, mainly because the wrestlers are not able to connect with the crowd.

 

A ****3/4 match without heat is of no use if the crowd can't enjoy it.

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Guest Jubuki

Your angle is all wrong. If a match really is great, there's going to be some kind of reaction from the crowd. Someone's going to be alert enough to see it and think, "Wow, this is blowing my mind." The problem isn't a lack of reaction for something that works really well, leading to people missing out on something good just because it doesn't "sound" so good - the issue, by far, is a loud, raucous crowd popping for a shit match and leading others to think it's better than it is. I've never seen anything that I thought of as great or classic that didn't elicit a big response of some sort at some stage in the match. I've seen plenty of bad matches get reactions that were just as big, if not bigger, though.

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Guest gansobomber

You're misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. I would never even try to get thr Rock/Hogan WMX8 match into the MOTYC even though it superb heat.

 

To illustrate my point, let me take Armageddon's Benoit vs Gurrerro. The match was very good, and I heard they worked the match NJPW style. But the crowd wasn't into it. So would I call it an MOTYC ? Scott Keith gave it a ****1/4. Now I know Keith is a Benoit/ Gurrero mark and that's why he gave the rating. Now think of what rating you would give to the match

 

1. In the US, where it recieves very little response from the crowd.

 

2. When it does recieve the response it should.

 

The match as such, is the same. See the varying heat? I don't know how to make it clearer than this and if you can give me a proper reason for this being wrong, I'll gladly accept.

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Guest Jubuki

Because

 

A) You're using Scott Keith as a reference point!

 

B) The chances of Benoit and Guerrero working "NJ style" in the WWE are slim to none. I'd like to see the match (if just to prove I'm right), but I very highly doubt it was that good. I've seen them both plenty of times. IN New Japan. In their primes. And they weren't hitting that level of quality all the time then. Hell, I've seen Guerrero THIS YEAR in New Japan and he wasn't getting close, even if he's still very good.

 

I'm not misunderstanding you - I just don't buy the U.S. work as a pile of 'unappreciated classics' just because WWE fans 'don't get them'. Chances are, they aren't classics; that's what's the problem. People were creaming themselves over the Benoit/Jericho series, too, but their best match was in Japan, in 1995, because BOTH MEN WERE BETTER WORKERS. Not because the crowd kept up. I'm going to say this for a third time and then I'm not getting in this thread again - great matches elicit responses. Period. But plenty of shit does too, and that's where the problem lies. NOT the other way around.

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