Flea's Cloumn

[Guest DrTom]

Albert, Batista, or anyone that is not "cool to like " (based on IWC standards) comes out to NO CROWD REACTION - Vince is a fool and a

"big man freak who hates anyone not 6’5" and is insulting our intelligence by pushing them because they are NOT OVER due to lack of crowd noise. "Doesn’t Vince listen to the fans?" "How can he push them when the crowd doesn’t care?"

 

But then...

 

Chris Benoit and Eddy Guerrero wrestle in absolute silence, save for a bunch of BORING chants, and it’s the FANS that are stupid and

uneducated and Vince is a fool to listen to the fans. "How can he listen to the fans, who wouldn’t know OVER and TALENT if they came over and introduced themselves?"      

 

Well, let's see Flea: A-Train has been a waste of space in the roster since 1998, he can't cut a promo, his in-ring style is terrible, and he's out of shape. Compare that with Guerrero and Benoit who have consistantly great matches, can cut promos that get angles or matches over and have paid their dues long ago.

The fact is that Flea has a point. Smarks bitch about people like Albert and Batista, and a large part of their bitching is the fact that those fellows come out and wrestle to no crowd reaction. Listen to the Benoit-Guerrero match at the most recent PPV (which is very obviously what he's referring to, for those who seem to have missed it). The crowd is dead quiet except for some “Boring!” chants. So by the standards of crowd reactions, people who damn Albert and Batista should damn Eddy and Benoit. That’s the criterion he was using; the fact that Eddy and Benoit put on good matches wasn’t part of the argument. If you’re going to attempt to tear the man down, you might want to try sticking to the points he made instead of interjecting your own.

 

Hogan on HHH: "Great backstage politician"

 

TAKEN AS GOSPEL! "Boy Howdy! We were right about that HHH guy all along. Hogan said so!"

 

Hogan on Anything Else, pick the topic

 

FULL OF SHIT!! "Boy Howdy! That Hogan sure has some nerve to try and snow us over with his lies and exaggerations! You can’t believe a WORD

he says!"

 

Guess what Flea? We don't need Hogan to tell us HHH is a backstage politician. He's admitted he's in production meetings, he was part of a group that was hell-bent on controlling backstage politics. It's pretty obvious due to his monstrous push and lack of effort that something isn't right. And then there's that whole "banging the boss' daughter thing." Oh, and the reason we don't take Hogan for his word is because 99% he's talking about HIMSELF and he's a known egotist.

Even when Hogan’s not talking about himself, he’s known to be given to some pretty severe hyperbole, and his grasp of the truth is often Clintonian at best. I don’t think Flea’s pointing out anything remarkable here: people always pick the points and arguments they want, and ignore the rest. But the fact remains that smarks took Hogan’s comment about HHH to be the gospel truth, but any other time Hogan said something, they called him a crazy old man. It happens.

 

Talk about beating a dead horse. HEY! GO WRITE A COLUMN OR

POST A MESSAGE ABOUT HOW HHHORIBLE HHH IS! Nothing like originality!!

 

Notice that at this point he can't dispute the claim, just that he's sick of hearing about it. Well, then don't go on message boards, quit the IWC you hate so much. You're such a dumb-ass.

 

Nothing like originality indeed. “If you don’t like it, quit!” My, THAT sure is original. Did you think of that all by yourself? Again, Flea is stating a fact: many wrestling messageboards are filled with HHHate, as are many columns on wrestling websites. I think the point has been made that a lot of people don’t like him, for various reasons, and at this point, that dead horse is being beaten something severe. Maybe you should put down that sledgehammer and realize that the man has a point.

 

"backstage political scene" figured out based on 3rd  hand rumors

from "sources" and a jaded perception of how business, in general, works.

 

If you hear a story once, you dimiss it. Twice, maybe. Three times, is pushing it. But the sheer volume of complaints makes it tough to dispute these claims.

But really, what’s the basis for these complaints? Unnamed “sources” in the locker room? Whispers overheard somewhere? Quotes maybe taken out of context? As much as we like to report on and speculate about the backstage environment, the truth is that none of us really know what happens, or what any certain people really think. Until Meltzer or Keller post an article naming a specific source, everything they’re reporting is hearsay. I know this isn’t a court, but there’s a reason hearsay isn’t admissible as evidence, and that is its sheer unreliability. The articles might be 100% spot-on accurate, but the fact is that there’s not a lot of meat behind them.

 

Benoit (who can’t talk and has never expressed an interest in resembling someone with a personality) and Jericho (who was given his run at the top and was moderately successful, but whose in ring work seemed to take one big nose dive when he was given the ball)

 

Yes, because the people who have it now are doing SO WELL WITH IT.

Again, is that the point? Flea’s talking about Benoit and Jericho. Of course, the claws come out, and any pretense of objectivity flies out the window because he’s talking about a pair of smark darlings without pausing to verbally fellate them every other sentence. The fact is that Benoit has never been very good on the stick, and has gotten over on the basis of his ringwork. He’s been talking a bit more recently, but how much that’s going to help him remains to be seen. Jericho did seem uninspired in the ring when he was the Undisputed champion, and it’s only been in the past few months that his overall game recovered. Maybe he knew he was going to get buried and end up scooping dog shit; who knows? The point is, it doesn’t matter how well or how poorly anyone with the titles is doing now. (And while we’re off the original topic, what the bloody hell is wrong with Kurt Angle?) If you can’t make your questionable points based solely around Benoit and Jericho, then give it up.

 

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing you ignorant twit.

Please, follow your own advice.

[Guest Brian]

"The fact is that Flea has a point. Smarks bitch about people like Albert and Batista, and a large part of their bitching is the fact that those fellows come out and wrestle to no crowd reaction. Listen to the Benoit-Guerrero match at the most recent PPV (which is very obviously what he's referring to, for those who seem to have missed it). The crowd is dead quiet except for some “Boring!” chants. So by the standards of crowd reactions, people who damn Albert and Batista should damn Eddy and Benoit. That’s the criterion he was using; the fact that Eddy and Benoit put on good matches wasn’t part of the argument. If you’re going to attempt to tear the man down, you might want to try sticking to the points he made instead of interjecting your own."

 

Actually, I think the counterpoint to this is aside from that singles match (which was horribly booked), the rest of their matches have had significantly good heat. And besides, he's generalized alot of criterion peope use when looking at a wrestler deserving a push and getting good programs, like how well they've performed and how entertaining they've been.

 

 

"Even when Hogan’s not talking about himself, he’s known to be given to some pretty severe hyperbole, and his grasp of the truth is often Clintonian at best. I don’t think Flea’s pointing out anything remarkable here: people always pick the points and arguments they want, and ignore the rest. But the fact remains that smarks took Hogan’s comment about HHH to be the gospel truth, but any other time Hogan said something, they called him a crazy old man. It happens."

 

Well, I don't remember that interview but after reading through Hogan's book you can basically tell that the guy's full of shit. And it can be proven, rather easily. I think the reason that people would be willing to accept this is rather than pointing out that he's holding someone down, politics have become something of a pastime in wrestling, especially among top guys, So it's really no surprise if someone says so and so is involved; Austin was, Undertaker was, Nash, Hall, Hogan, DDP, Goldberg, all had a hand.

 

 

"But really, what’s the basis for these complaints? Unnamed “sources” in the locker room? Whispers overheard somewhere? Quotes maybe taken out of context? As much as we like to report on and speculate about the backstage environment, the truth is that none of us really know what happens, or what any certain people really think. Until Meltzer or Keller post an article naming a specific source, everything they’re reporting is hearsay. I know this isn’t a court, but there’s a reason hearsay isn’t admissible as evidence, and that is its sheer unreliability. The articles might be 100% spot-on accurate, but the fact is that there’s not a lot of meat behind them."

 

Meltzer does o occasion bring up names, and the Torch does have their "Torch Talks" with other wrestlers, but otherwise it's a risk for the wrestlers to have their names presented because it could affect their standing in the company. Once in a while ex-wrestlers will go on record but those are usually regarded as being bitter. Like Zenk.

 

"Again, is that the point? Flea’s talking about Benoit and Jericho. Of course, the claws come out, and any pretense of objectivity flies out the window because he’s talking about a pair of smark darlings without pausing to verbally fellate them every other sentence. The fact is that Benoit has never been very good on the stick, and has gotten over on the basis of his ringwork. He’s been talking a bit more recently, but how much that’s going to help him remains to be seen. Jericho did seem uninspired in the ring when he was the Undisputed champion, and it’s only been in the past few months that his overall game recovered. Maybe he knew he was going to get buried and end up scooping dog shit; who knows? The point is, it doesn’t matter how well or how poorly anyone with the titles is doing now. (And while we’re off the original topic, what the bloody hell is wrong with Kurt Angle?) If you can’t make your questionable points based solely around Benoit and Jericho, then give it up."

 

Jericho's undisputed work was uninspired. Those six month of his push starting at his No Mercy produced some of his best promos since coming to the WWE, some of his best ringwork sans Benoit, and some of his better carrying. Aside from the Austin NWO where Austin was clearly the unmotivated one, I don't see where the criticism of Jericho is coming from.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

"Get back his credibility?" What? When in WWE-land did he lose it?

His cred as a draw. Sooner or later it will be questioned. He needs to be able to say, "Look at the program with Steiner".

[Guest AndrewTS]

"Get back his credibility?"  What?  When in WWE-land did he lose it?

His cred as a draw. Sooner or later it will be questioned. He needs to be able to say, "Look at the program with Steiner".

HHH hasn't drawn in a long, long time. Taking a look at just the Steiner program when the others haven't drawn jack is not going to prove anything. HHH would have to start being a stronger draw from here on, because if everything else after this goes over like a lead balloon (the inevitable Diesel fued?), then I think he'll be nearly finished no matter who he sleeps with.

 

And some wrestlers and the style they wrestle just do not get a response in certain places. If Benoit and Eddy wrestled to silence everywhere, then despite how good they are I could see them not being pushed for it. Yet people EVERYWHERE are apathetic about Albert and Demott. And I hate Show's wrestling but like him as a heel in this role, just hope he doesn't have to recite his statistics every interview 5 times.

 

Besides, the reason Demott/Albert suck in my opinion is more than just the crowd reaction. Matches are blah, have no character or decent mic work (at least Benoit has a character and good matches), and they were pushed heavily with no real reason.

 

Now, Albert's already back on Velocity. Does this mean we were right?

 

And is Mr. Flea an Albert fan, or is he trying to compare an apple to an orange painted red and trying to justify his vendetta against popular IWC opinion?

 

Personally, I'd love to see Flea's idealized WWE, where Triple H gets 45 minutes out of every Raw--not counting wrestling time, and Demott, Albert, Big Show, Kliq members, Batista and the others are in the main event and upper midcard, while the SD 6, Booker, Jericho, etc are all on Velocity and Heat. I'd be able to see 2 hours of quality wrestling--well, minus the recap crap, and could miss the gigantic shitstorm all over the "A" shows. Isn't that what Flea wants? After all, he seems to love hosses and HHH, and not care to see quality wrestling, hey, fuck the rest of us, right?

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Albert, Batista, or anyone that is not "cool to like " (based on IWC standards) comes out to NO CROWD REACTION - Vince is a fool and a

"big man freak who hates anyone not 6’5" and is insulting our intelligence by pushing them because they are NOT OVER due to lack of crowd noise. "Doesn’t Vince listen to the fans?" "How can he push them when the crowd doesn’t care?"

 

But then...

 

Chris Benoit and Eddy Guerrero wrestle in absolute silence, save for a bunch of BORING chants, and it’s the FANS that are stupid and

uneducated and Vince is a fool to listen to the fans. "How can he listen to the fans, who wouldn’t know OVER and TALENT if they came over and introduced themselves?"      

 

Well, let's see Flea: A-Train has been a waste of space in the roster since 1998, he can't cut a promo, his in-ring style is terrible, and he's out of shape. Compare that with Guerrero and Benoit who have consistantly great matches, can cut promos that get angles or matches over and have paid their dues long ago.

The fact is that Flea has a point. Smarks bitch about people like Albert and Batista, and a large part of their bitching is the fact that those fellows come out and wrestle to no crowd reaction. Listen to the Benoit-Guerrero match at the most recent PPV (which is very obviously what he's referring to, for those who seem to have missed it). The crowd is dead quiet except for some “Boring!” chants. So by the standards of crowd reactions, people who damn Albert and Batista should damn Eddy and Benoit. That’s the criterion he was using; the fact that Eddy and Benoit put on good matches wasn’t part of the argument. If you’re going to attempt to tear the man down, you might want to try sticking to the points he made instead of interjecting your own.

 

Hogan on HHH: "Great backstage politician"

 

TAKEN AS GOSPEL! "Boy Howdy! We were right about that HHH guy all along. Hogan said so!"

 

Hogan on Anything Else, pick the topic

 

FULL OF SHIT!! "Boy Howdy! That Hogan sure has some nerve to try and snow us over with his lies and exaggerations! You can’t believe a WORD

he says!"

 

Guess what Flea? We don't need Hogan to tell us HHH is a backstage politician. He's admitted he's in production meetings, he was part of a group that was hell-bent on controlling backstage politics. It's pretty obvious due to his monstrous push and lack of effort that something isn't right. And then there's that whole "banging the boss' daughter thing." Oh, and the reason we don't take Hogan for his word is because 99% he's talking about HIMSELF and he's a known egotist.

Even when Hogan’s not talking about himself, he’s known to be given to some pretty severe hyperbole, and his grasp of the truth is often Clintonian at best. I don’t think Flea’s pointing out anything remarkable here: people always pick the points and arguments they want, and ignore the rest. But the fact remains that smarks took Hogan’s comment about HHH to be the gospel truth, but any other time Hogan said something, they called him a crazy old man. It happens.

 

Talk about beating a dead horse. HEY! GO WRITE A COLUMN OR

POST A MESSAGE ABOUT HOW HHHORIBLE HHH IS! Nothing like originality!!

 

Notice that at this point he can't dispute the claim, just that he's sick of hearing about it. Well, then don't go on message boards, quit the IWC you hate so much. You're such a dumb-ass.

 

Nothing like originality indeed. “If you don’t like it, quit!” My, THAT sure is original. Did you think of that all by yourself? Again, Flea is stating a fact: many wrestling messageboards are filled with HHHate, as are many columns on wrestling websites. I think the point has been made that a lot of people don’t like him, for various reasons, and at this point, that dead horse is being beaten something severe. Maybe you should put down that sledgehammer and realize that the man has a point.

 

"backstage political scene" figured out based on 3rd  hand rumors

from "sources" and a jaded perception of how business, in general, works.

 

If you hear a story once, you dimiss it. Twice, maybe. Three times, is pushing it. But the sheer volume of complaints makes it tough to dispute these claims.

But really, what’s the basis for these complaints? Unnamed “sources” in the locker room? Whispers overheard somewhere? Quotes maybe taken out of context? As much as we like to report on and speculate about the backstage environment, the truth is that none of us really know what happens, or what any certain people really think. Until Meltzer or Keller post an article naming a specific source, everything they’re reporting is hearsay. I know this isn’t a court, but there’s a reason hearsay isn’t admissible as evidence, and that is its sheer unreliability. The articles might be 100% spot-on accurate, but the fact is that there’s not a lot of meat behind them.

 

Benoit (who can’t talk and has never expressed an interest in resembling someone with a personality) and Jericho (who was given his run at the top and was moderately successful, but whose in ring work seemed to take one big nose dive when he was given the ball)

 

Yes, because the people who have it now are doing SO WELL WITH IT.

Again, is that the point? Flea’s talking about Benoit and Jericho. Of course, the claws come out, and any pretense of objectivity flies out the window because he’s talking about a pair of smark darlings without pausing to verbally fellate them every other sentence. The fact is that Benoit has never been very good on the stick, and has gotten over on the basis of his ringwork. He’s been talking a bit more recently, but how much that’s going to help him remains to be seen. Jericho did seem uninspired in the ring when he was the Undisputed champion, and it’s only been in the past few months that his overall game recovered. Maybe he knew he was going to get buried and end up scooping dog shit; who knows? The point is, it doesn’t matter how well or how poorly anyone with the titles is doing now. (And while we’re off the original topic, what the bloody hell is wrong with Kurt Angle?) If you can’t make your questionable points based solely around Benoit and Jericho, then give it up.

 

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing you ignorant twit.

Please, follow your own advice.

1. I didn't talk about great matches Tom. I said they had gotten great crowd responses. This was the first match in four or five monthes where something like this has happened. In science that's called "an aberration of data" That means that there isn't enough of this new data top contridict the hypothosis. Why don't you read the post, smart-guy?

 

2. Hogan's full of shit when he talks about himself, but ask yourself this: WHY would he lie about this? Does it help him in any readily identifiable way? When you can give me some motivation, I'll think about it. You basiclly repeated what Flea said without the addition of ANY new data. What was the point of that post anyway?

 

3. You're right about unnamed reports, but you seem to suffer from a lack of common sense. This stuff was being reported in 2000 when he was a smark darling and the #2 man in the company. It's nothing new. He's admitted he's involved in production meetings. That's a conflict of intrests, no matter what you think about HHH's political dealings. He's admitted to having an intimate realtionship with the head writer, that's a conflict of intrest. Why don't YOU wake up, you arrogent ass? You have two conflicts of intrest, MANY, MANY, reports of political dealings, a history of backstage manipulation, (Does the Clique ring a bell?) and he has in no way earned his current spot since returning from his quad injury.

 

That's a bit convienient.

 

4. This isn't even an arguing point, this is fucking common sense. If you hate the IWC as much as Flea does. It's time to take some time off the scene. Are you retarded, Tom? The man is dedicating his weekly column to "exposing" the IWC whilst doing the same exact thing he claims we do. Maybe, rather than be so negative, he should just be a mark again.

 

5. Well, I don't dispute that jericho's work was sup-par as Champ, but that isn't the point HE'S making Tom. He's trying to say they shouldn't be given runs with the title. The workrate comment was his "evidence".(Ironic considering how much he loves HHH) Well, he's wrong about Benoit, and I hope he's LOVING Benoit in the ME of Royal Rumble.

 

I sure as hell am

 

6. Quit arguing for the sake of arguing, admit that we have a point. 1 Flea doesn't matter when there are 100 MulattoHeats who don't give a damn.

[Guest bob_barron]

1. Explain Survivor Series where the crowd was sitting on their hands most of the match. The last two PPV matches featuring the Smackdown 6 has had a dead crowd reaction.

 

Benoit and Jericho shouldn't be given runs with the title- Benoit needs to work on his mic skills and Jericho needs to be taken more seriously

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

I was going to leave this thread be as I was a bit tired of the 'other side' being either unwilling or unable to say anything other than blanket statements laced with put downs that blatantly reveal inferiority complexes, but a few things still need to be said.

 

-Maybe I missed the threads about the Hogan interview, but I honestly do not recall smarks falling over themselves regarding the HHH comment. I may have ignored them. Perhaps I should do some digging up to see for myself, if and when I care.

 

-As far as Benoit/Eddie at Armaggeddon, I wasn't surprised at the poor reception. I expected it. I wasn't looking forward to the match at all and didn't think it belonged on PPV as it was. I'll get into the reasons only if someone asks as I don't feel like listing them in detail only for them to be no-sold.

 

-IF Flea didn't constantly act like those that he puts down, I could have some respect for him. That's basically what I wanted to get across in my first post. But everything is either an exaggeration or inaccurate so basically it's the pot calling the kettle black.

 

-It is ironic that Jericho gets critiqued over his ringwork yet others (HHH, Taker) are let off. Why is that?

 

BTW, Andrew, I knew that Albert would find his way back in Velocity eventually. I didn't think that it would happen so soon. And Barron, nobody said anything about giving Benoit or Jericho runs with the title, and I'm almost bowled over with the irony that a Regal mark is saying what you just said.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Was I watching a different match, because I remember the Benoit/Guererro match getting plenty of heat, including a short "Benoit" chant and *very* loud "Eddy sucks" chant. Benoit's major offense, particularly the diving head-BUTT and the Crossface, got big pops, and while some of the match suffered from lack of heat, it certainly didn't reflect in the finish, which seemed to show that they still had everyone's attention.

 

Comparing that to, say, the Show/Angle match, which had very little sustained heat, and the 2/3 falls match that was pretty much dead by the second fall, I think Benoit and Guererro are hardly deserving of critisism in that department. Their feud had only been built up for about a week, and both matches putting them against each other (the tag title bout on Smackdown pre-Armagedon and the pay per view match itself) had plenty of crowd reaction.

 

But then, there are plenty of guys just like Flea over here who claim that "Benoit has never been over as a face in his entire career" and expect people to take their claims on face value. It's just the Hyatte attitude of "insult as many of my peers as possible, and eventually they'll start paying attention to me." They're both terrible writers, on a pretty terrible web site. I'm not trying to bring down 411 just because of two writers I dislike, I just haven't seen anyone from that website who I feel knows anything about wrestling or deserves my time of day. Unless Flea actually backs up his points with supporting information as opposed to the all-powerful blanket statements, why even pay attentiont to him? How many shallow, "anti-smark" articles can you read before they all sound the same? Leave the choads to their masturbatory columns, you'll both be better off that way.

[Guest teke184]

Getting to Flea's NEW column, it's got about as much BS in it as the whole Albert thing.

 

While the standards for an IWC 100 are not exactly well defined IMHO, it looks like he just took the names of the wrestlers who have ever said anything online, the names of the guys who run the sites like the Torch and A1wrestling, a few key Smark names like Hyatte and SK, then the names of EVERYONE who works for 411 in some way and about 75 random people.

 

I don't have a problem with most of his choices, even guys like Eric S because they have had some influence, but pimping guys like Pat Brower and Mr. "Lance Storm was fired" himself Grut is pretty inexcusable. Nothing against Brower, he just isn't memorable. Grut, OTOH, is an annoying fuck who doesn't know when to just let a bad joke die.

 

And seriously... can a guy as incoherent as Ultimate Warrior be influential if you can't understand what the hell he's saying?

 

 

The only Smartmarks guy I noticed on the list was Dean Rasmussen and I'm guessing that was based solely on his DVDVR work. Not to kiss ass, but Dames should have been on there because he's gotten a lot of notice from NWA: TNA over his reviews and has actually been talked to by Jerry Jarrett amongst others about ways to fix the product.

 

PS- Yes, I am slightly pissed that I was left off, but that doesn't make my viewpoint any less valid.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

"And seriously... can a guy as incoherent as Ultimate Warrior be influential if you can't understand what the hell he's saying?"

 

Ultimate Warrior's web commentaries get a lot of play on the net.

[Guest AndrewTS]

"And seriously... can a guy as incoherent as Ultimate Warrior be influential if you can't understand what the hell he's saying?"

 

Ultimate Warrior's web commentaries get a lot of play on the net.

Newsboards and sites post them--but they haven't really influenced anything. It's usually like, "hey, take a look at what this nutjob had to say this time."

[Guest jester]

My only objection to this whole thing is the assumption that there is one accepted smark position, and that's that. As if the Smark Borg decides "Don't like Albert" and then we all uplink and suddenly don't like Albert.

 

It's assumed that "Smark Darlings" like Benoit are loved and accepted no matter what they do, and that Smark Targets like HHH can do no right. That's not true.

 

HHHatred is probably the most "universal" Smark Attitude on this board. But even within that there are differing opinions, not just "Uggh. HHH bad. Me no like, 'cause people on board no like." Some people respect his earlier work. Some say they've never been a fan. Some hate him and only him for the alledged backstage antics. Others say the real blame goes solely to Vince for letting it go on. And as for universal hatred, even that is questionable, as he had defenders for the longest time. Every now and then a dissenting voice still pops up.

 

I'm not trying to turn this into an HHH thread. I'm just trying to point out that the idea that there is only one accepted Smark philosophy and that anyone who doesn't agree with every tenent of it is flamed out of existence is bullshit.

[Guest DrTom]

Christ on a cracker, Zsasz, do you have to quote my entire bloody post?

 

I didn't talk about great matches Tom. I said they had gotten great crowd responses.

Then kindly tell a body what this means...

Compare that with Guerrero and Benoit who have consistantly great matches, can cut promos that get angles or matches over and have paid their dues long ago.

(Emphasis mine)

Hmm, I guess I'm reading too much into things again...

 

2. Hogan's full of shit when he talks about himself, but ask yourself this: WHY would he lie about this?

I never said Hogan was lying. There's a good chance he was correct, as far as any of us know. But to call the man a liar and a loon in one breath and to hold him up as a grand soothsayer in the other isn't exactly consistent.

 

3. You're right about unnamed reports, but you seem to suffer from a lack of common sense. This stuff was being reported in 2000 when he was a smark darling and the #2 man in the company. It's nothing new.

And you seem to suffer from poor reading comprehension skills, a lack of tact, and a complete inability to stick to the goddamn point and acutally form a coherent argument. What was reported about HHH in 2000 was nowhere near like it is now, basically because he WAS a smark darling. Then, 1n 2002, everyone tripped over their own feet to be first in line with the verbal blowjobs for finishing the infamous Torn Quad Match. Not that he didn't deserve the props for it, but there was no HHHate running around then, and we all had a pretty good idea who he went to bed with every night. We didn't seem to care much then, since he was still good in the ring. But since he came back too soon and too heavy, and has never regained the form he had in 2000 and the first part of 2001, suddenly, all his politics and liaisons are Very Bad Things. It just shows what we're willing to overlook in the interest of being entertained. We don't care if football players run people over with cars, beat their wives, and shoot all manners of drugs, just so long as the touchdowns are there. Once it looks like the player is starting to slip, though, we move in like a pack of hungry wolves. It's a societal thing, not exclusive to the IWC. Americans love putting people on pedestals, but even more than that, we love pushing them off and laughing as the ambulance pulls up.

 

He's admitted to having an intimate realtionship with the head writer, that's a conflict of intrest.

Much more on her part than his, though.

 

Why don't YOU wake up, you arrogent ass?

I'm wide awake, skippy.

 

It's not like I like HHH or anything. Like most people, I thought he was good during his 2000-01 run, and I think he's basically sucked ever since he came back. He doesn't deserve the top spot based on how he's performed over the past year, but it's not his fault he has it. He might have Stephanie's ear (and other parts, too), but the final say on things like that still belongs to Vincent K. It's his company, and ultimately his decision, so I blame him.

 

If you hate the IWC as much as Flea does. It's time to take some time off the scene. Are you retarded, Tom?

Not at all, which is why I'm not here frothing at the mouth and getting all defensive that some guy on 411 dared utter and unkind word about me and my brethren. The guy's pointing out hypocritical and inconsistent positions that he comes across. Maybe he's actually trying to *improve* things and not blindly rail against them. Have you stopped to consider that?

 

5. Well, I don't dispute that jericho's work was sup-par as Champ, but that isn't the point HE'S making Tom. He's trying to say they shouldn't be given runs with the title. The workrate comment was his "evidence".

He's saying he doesn't think they're ready for runs at the top, and he's trying to defend his point. Jericho's work as Champ was subpar, despite being good before that, so is he a worthwhile risk now? Benoit is best as the silent assassin type, so can he reliably be pushed into a position where he has to get over on the stick? If the business were doing well, both those risks might be worthwhile. Since it's not, though, they become a lot more... well, risky. Angle's a good guy to hold the strap on SD. I don't like the Raw title at all based on how they dusted it off and "awarded" it, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Steiner get a couple months with it. Not a bad call, since he's probably going to blow up or kirk out before long, and they might as well get something for their investment while they can. Overall, I think Booker T is the best guy for the strap, and is a safer bet than Jericho, IMO.

 

6. Quit arguing for the sake of arguing, admit that we have a point.

I'm not the one who cut and pasted an internet wrestling column and got my knickers in a defensive twist about it. I'm arguing because I think the article raised some very valid points, which have been swept under the rug in the rush to defend the IWC and its darlings. You have a point in some of the things you're saying, but you're doing a poor job of presenting them. Your posts come across as petulant and defensive, and you're arguing with way too much emotional attachment. Step back and look at the issues being raised. I think you'll find there's some validity there, once you pull in the claws and stop spitting venom all over the place.

[Guest DrTom]

Actually, I think the counterpoint to this is aside from that singles match (which was horribly booked), the rest of their matches have had significantly good heat. And besides, he's generalized alot of criterion peope use when looking at a wrestler deserving a push and getting good programs, like how well they've performed and how entertaining they've been.

The rest, sure. But their most recent match didn’t have that kind of heat, and even drew the dreading “Boring!” chant. The only criterion he mentions is crowd reactions. And when then crowd is sitting on their hands, they’re sitting on their hands. Who’s in the ring shouldn’t matter if the reaction is like that. We like Eddy and Benoit infinitely more than Albert for a lot of reasons, but an unresponsive crowd is an unresponsive crowd. It shouldn’t mean different things based on who’s in the ring.

 

... politics have become something of a pastime in wrestling, especially among top guys, So it's really no surprise if someone says so and so is involved; Austin was, Undertaker was, Nash, Hall, Hogan, DDP, Goldberg, all had a hand.

Sure, politics have become a huge thing in the business. It seems like people enjoy reading about that stuff as much (if not more, in some cases) than they enjoy reading about what actually goes on in the ring. Yet who gets decried at every opportunity for politics and power plays? HHH. He’s not the only one who does it – though he might be the worst – but to read reactions, he might as well be. Austin walks out on the company and people say he had a point, and good for him. (Yes, I think he had a very valid point, but expressed it in about the worst way possible.) HHH shows up all the time, wrestles hurt, and is still better in the ring than several other people you mentioned, but he catches all the grief. Isn’t walking out on the company the worse sin?

 

Again, it’s not that I like HHH. I just see how he’s held to a different standard of dislike based on things outside the ring.

 

…but otherwise it's a risk for the wrestlers to have their names presented because it could affect their standing in the company

Still, names give things credibility. Anyone can say they have an “anonymous source” or an “unnamed insider.” It’s a lot different when you attribute a quote directly to a person. I understand that wrestlers who speak out would suffer a backlash in the locker room. Jim Ross would probably order hoss-sized anal rapings from Bradshaw since the person spoke to a dreaded internet columnist. But since guys like Metlzer et al aren’t in the locker rooms, what they’re reporting is essentially speculation and hearsay. It’s “news” within the context of the IWC, but how credible it would be in reputable journalism might be a different matter.

 

I don't see where the criticism of Jericho is coming from.

He just seemed down a notch when he had the Undisputed strap. Just kind of lackluster, like he really wasn't all the way into it. Maybe he knew he was doomed to pick up dog shit and be turned into a joke. But his crisp ringwork suffered, IMO and the opinions of others. His promos and ringwork have both gotten better since then. Maybe he’s ready for another turn at the top, but he might not be seen as an acceptable risk by people who make those decisions.

[Guest NYCTA Bus No. PA1767]

Hey Tom, GREAT JOB, backing up the other side of the debate. But I believe it was Andrew TS who quoted your post and who you responded to.

 

I've never really seen anyone go against the usual smark rhetoric without 100 smarks gang raping them, but hey, this IS Dr. Tom.

 

Edit: Sorry, it wasn't Andre. They just had their post so close I got confused.

[Guest Brian]

Just mentioning crowd heat is a gross generalization of why most people believe these guys deserve pushes.

 

There's a reason HHH gets most of the criticism though. Taker's gone. Austin's gone. Nash is out. Hogan's gone. Heck, he's got Vince ear and the head booker is his girlfriend. There were people back in late 2000 who gave him shit for being in his position. But part of it was that in 2000, Triple H didn't worry about protecting his spot as much. Look at him, working with some of the lowest mid-carders and putting Jericho over at the RAW match that never happened. It's a whole different thing, and maybe it's just the booking tea, fucking it up by not getting mid-carders up high enough but look who's in charge over there. So Triple H, as long as he's not as good as he used to be and has to protect his spot and there's a conflict of interest is going to get a lot of shit.

 

I know Keller has a strict thing of confidentiality, with the exception of his Torch Talks. I've talked to Meltzer in the past, and in his newsletter he will bring up sources occasionally. But if you look at his track record (Montreal, Steroid Trial) from public events that he reported before the public got hold of them, and did a very thorough job, it seems rather obvious that he has some sort of source.

 

I still don't understand the point about Jericho. He had three very good -> great matches with Rock during the period. He pulled a good match out of Rock. He tried to work with Austin at NWO, who at the time was sabotaging everything. He pulled a good match out of Triple H; as good as Angle's and given that he had already been pushed aside. He even got a good brawl out of him even afterbeing taken off the previous pay per view after main eventing Mania. He cut some good promos, and a few very good ones. His ringwork was worse before and after that time.

[Guest DrTom]

The point is, though, the decision ultimately rests with Vince himself. Maybe he listens to his daughter and her boyfriend more than he should, but he could always say no, also. It's pointless to blame HHH when he's not the man holding all the cards. He might be a politician, and a bastard for holding onto his top spot based on who he's going home with, but the final decision is out of his hands. Vince has always been the final authority on everything WWF/E, and until that changes, he's still the one to blame.

 

Jericho's program with The Rock had ended by the time he won the Undisputed title, hadn't it? I think Rock was the "World Champion" when they started their feud. I really liked the whole thing, both the promos and the matches. I can't say that Jericho carried Rock because, IMO, Rock doesn't need to be carried to a good match. After that, and after beating Austin for the real title, Jericho's work slipped, IMO. He was booked as a cowardly heel, which isn't a bad thing, but I didn't like him as much as I did before he got the belt. Personal preference, I suppose, but I can see how the argument that he dropped the ball when given the chance to run with it is valid.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Hey Tom, GREAT JOB, backing up the other side of the debate. But I believe it was Andrew TS who quoted your post and who you responded to.

 

I've never really seen anyone go against the usual smark rhetoric without 100 smarks gang raping them, but hey, this IS Dr. Tom.

 

Edit: Sorry, it wasn't Andre. They just had their post so close I got confused.

Yeah, because everyone knows every smark holds the exact same opinion on every issue, and all others will be flamed.

 

 

You know, aside from a few jokes, I haven't seen Buffy get that treatment, and she's about as against the grain as you can get.

 

AND WHAT IS WITH Bus-boy's fascination with rape and sodomy metaphors? This isn't a Bradshaw thread.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

He has a worldwide outlet for his bile. I don't.

What?

 

I swear to god you made one at " http://www.thesmartmarks.com/forums/index....=1&t=23326&st=0 "

[Guest AndrewTS]

The point is, though, the decision ultimately rests with Vince himself. Maybe he listens to his daughter and her boyfriend more than he should, but he could always say no, also. It's pointless to blame HHH when he's not the man holding all the cards. He might be a politician, and a bastard for holding onto his top spot based on who he's going home with, but the final decision is out of his hands. Vince has always been the final authority on everything WWF/E, and until that changes, he's still the one to blame.

 

Jericho's program with The Rock had ended by the time he won the Undisputed title, hadn't it? I think Rock was the "World Champion" when they started their feud. I really liked the whole thing, both the promos and the matches. I can't say that Jericho carried Rock because, IMO, Rock doesn't need to be carried to a good match. After that, and after beating Austin for the real title, Jericho's work slipped, IMO. He was booked as a cowardly heel, which isn't a bad thing, but I didn't like him as much as I did before he got the belt. Personal preference, I suppose, but I can see how the argument that he dropped the ball when given the chance to run with it is valid.

When you're booked to only win by the skin of your teeth, cheat past Ric Flair levels to beat normal midcarders, and your finisher is a belt shot to the face and your big WM fued involves fetching lotion for Steph and cleaning up dog shit, it's hard to be motivated in the ring, I'd imagine.

 

Still...business didn't slip as much as it did with the next champion, who actually got his own title belt instead of lugging around two belts.

[Guest bob_barron]

The point is, though, the decision ultimately rests with Vince himself. Maybe he listens to his daughter and her boyfriend more than he should, but he could always say no, also. It's pointless to blame HHH when he's not the man holding all the cards. He might be a politician, and a bastard for holding onto his top spot based on who he's going home with, but the final decision is out of his hands. Vince has always been the final authority on everything WWF/E, and until that changes, he's still the one to blame.

 

Jericho's program with The Rock had ended by the time he won the Undisputed title, hadn't it? I think Rock was the "World Champion" when they started their feud. I really liked the whole thing, both the promos and the matches. I can't say that Jericho carried Rock because, IMO, Rock doesn't need to be carried to a good match. After that, and after beating Austin for the real title, Jericho's work slipped, IMO. He was booked as a cowardly heel, which isn't a bad thing, but I didn't like him as much as I did before he got the belt. Personal preference, I suppose, but I can see how the argument that he dropped the ball when given the chance to run with it is valid.

Dr. Tom-

 

Jericho won the Undisputed Title at Vengeance and his first PPV Title defence was against the Rock at Royal Rumble.

 

I enjoyed the Jericho-Rock and Jericho-Austin feuds but I think his win over Austin being glossed over in favour of the nWo really hurt his image as champ

[Guest AndrewTS]

The point is, though, the decision ultimately rests with Vince himself.  Maybe he listens to his daughter and her boyfriend more than he should, but he could always say no, also.  It's pointless to blame HHH when he's not the man holding all the cards.  He might be a politician, and a bastard for holding onto his top spot based on who he's going home with, but the final decision is out of his hands.  Vince has always been the final authority on everything WWF/E, and until that changes, he's still the one to blame.

 

Jericho's program with The Rock had ended by the time he won the Undisputed title, hadn't it?  I think Rock was the "World Champion" when they started their feud.  I really liked the whole thing, both the promos and the matches.  I can't say that Jericho carried Rock because, IMO, Rock doesn't need to be carried to a good match.  After that, and after beating Austin for the real title, Jericho's work slipped, IMO.  He was booked as a cowardly heel, which isn't a bad thing, but I didn't like him as much as I did before he got the belt.  Personal preference, I suppose, but I can see how the argument that he dropped the ball when given the chance to run with it is valid.

Dr. Tom-

 

Jericho won the Undisputed Title at Vengeance and his first PPV Title defence was against the Rock at Royal Rumble.

 

I enjoyed the Jericho-Rock and Jericho-Austin feuds but I think his win over Austin being glossed over in favour of the nWo really hurt his image as champ

Yeah, Jericho wasn't even allowed to main event the TV shows.

[Guest bob_barron]

I didn't mind that Jericho's reign played second fiddle to the Royal Rumble since the RR is always the main selling point of the PPV but I didn't like that the Angle-HHH-Stephanie stuff overshadowed Jericho v. Austin at NWO

[Guest deadbeater]

I may disagree with her, but I kind of admire Buffybeast's fascination with bears, or guys with hairy chests. And she doesn't lash out hyprocritically like Flea does when we question it.

Say what you want, but wrestling should go out and attract fans like her to expand the fanbase.

[Guest NYCTA Bus No. PA1767]

I to this day, still do not believe that Jericho was ready for the title when he got it. It felt forced and rushed, just like many of Jericho's promos during that time which usually consisted of...

 

1. I'm king of the world!!!!!!

2. Stalls for boos

3. I'm the champion!!!!!

4. Stalls for boos

5. Take me seriously damnit!!!!!

6. Stalls for boos

7. I beat the Rock AND Steve Austin, in the same night!!!!!!

8. Stalls for boos

9. Take me seriously!!!!!

10. Stalls for boos

11. *Random Cheap Heat Routine*

12. Stalls for boos

13. I'm not a choker!!!!!

14. Stalls for boos

15. I'm going to beat *Insert random face or midcard jobber* like they've never been beating before!!!!!

16. Stalls for boos

17. I'm king of the world!!!!!!

18. Stalls for boos

 

Aside from the excellent Rock promo, Jericho's mic work was nothing to cream the proverbial pants over. It was just one big cheap heat routine after another. He was mildy over, but not "FIRST EVER UNDISPUTED CHAMPION" over.

[Guest NYCTA Bus No. PA1767]

Although Jericho was pretty much dead in the water by the time WM rolled around, what really put the bullet in his head or the dick in his ass (since I oh so love sodomy references) was playing Steph's lackey. He was getting more heel heat than he had in awhile being aligned with Steph, but he suffered playing her manslave. I guess the WWE said fuck it, might as well rape the corpse since it can't fight back.

[Guest AndrewTS]

He wasn't doing the "King of the World" routine then, he was calling himself a "larger than life living legend," but the WWE backed down to Larry fuckin' Zybysco, who didn't even have it trademarked I believe.

 

I'll admit that the only memorable promo then was the one with the Rock, but that's a point that was irrelevant to the conversation. His subpar mic work during that period was somewhat of a turn off for me I'll admit, since I knew he could be so much better.

 

And as I've said in the past, Jericho would have his best chance as a main eventer as an underdog face, not a heel. He is okay as a midcard heel, but not as a main event one yet.

 

However, anyone who wants to use that run as proof that Jericho would be a horrible main eventer, heel or otherwise, need only look at when HHH first won the title. He was not very over at all, and it took constant pushing, destroying Rock with a sledgehammer while having a run with the Corporation, aligning himself with Stephanie, and retiring Mick Foley after destroying him in several matches before he got over, (if some are out of order, feel free to correct them). Jericho was already far more over than he was--the difference? They were hell-bent on making HHH a main eventer, while Jericho's was a half-hearted effort with no real long-term plans in mind.

[Guest NYCTA Bus No. PA1767]

Jericho was VERY over going INTO his reign, but after he won the titles, his overness dropped to 1999 HHH levels. And HHH was sporadically over during his 1999 heel push, but not consistently. I remember watching the Best of RAW on DVD and I saw a 1999 promo which HHH and Chyna and HHH was getting some heat....

 

"Austin-uh! You wanna come out here, get in the ring-uh, and sing your little song. Well, you know what? I really don't give a crap!"

 

*Crowd Boos*

 

I can't remember the rest of his promo, but he did draw some heat back then. And it's hard to believe he's been doing the "-uh" for three years and only this year was it being brought up.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Better late than never:

 

I don't see how people can claim HHH never protected his spot in 2000. The feud with Jericho was the same thing he's pulling with Van Dam, Kane, and Bubba now.

 

Am I the only one who remembers the potentially-interesting Love Triangle angle with him, Steph, and Angle being ruined because Trips decided to turn it into an excuse to take jabs at Kurt's sexuality? Or when Angle was the heel champion Crips was still the #1 heel in the company?

 

The only time he dropped the title to someone was in a six man with Vince MchMahon lossing the match for him. I'm not trying to bash you guys for liking his 2000 run, but he was just as protected back then, if not more so.

 

HHH has always been this way, in my mind. I don't think much of him as a worker during that period, either, now that I've looked back on it.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Sorry I'm late...

 

But...who the fuck is Flea?

 

And HHHating was original when I started doing it.

 

...

 

so take that.