Angle Vs Benoit

Chunk · January 26, 2003

I know that this doesnt really warrant a whole new thread. But, ive only just been able to see the rumble, and I would have to drag up a page old thread.

Anyway. I have a problem with the ANgle/Benoit match from RR 03, that Im wondering if anyone agrees with.

To bulk out this thread, how about you post your star ratings for Angle Benoit

Unforgiven 02 and Royal Rumble 03

I really like both matches, but I dont hold the RR 03 one as close to perfection as everyone else seems to. This is for 2 main reaons.

Firstly, the obvious pshcology gap. Angle had just come back from a knee injury, and yet Benoit doesnt use this to his advantage. True, MC and Tazz say that its rumoured he has been milking it, but you would have expected a psych-genious like Benoit to use something like this to his advantage.

At the begining of the match, Benoit uses the sharpshotter, which I thought was because he was targeting the knee instead of the shoulder/neck. However, he just seems to abandon this hlaf way through the match.

Couple with that point, is the fact that Benoit kicks out of two angle slams in the same match. I dont agree with this in any match. That move will put guys away, and is made to look weak if it is kicked out of twice. If Benoit kicked out twice, then how many will Lesnar have to kick out of at wrestlemania.

For these two reasons, I would give it ****, which is still an excellent rating.

As faras Unforgiven 02 goes, I prefered it to the RR 03 match. Thr feud and moves that they used seemed fresher, and their was awesome mat exchanges and reversals that we didnt see as much of in the Rumble match.

I think if you combine the freshness and mat work from Unforgiven and the heat, ocassion and big finish from RR 03, then you have a serious 5* contender.

Maybe its just me? Which is the reason I posted. Lets hear your thoughts.

ChUnK!

January 26, 2003

let's go one better than comparing those 2: let's rank all their significant singles matches (not counting the one or two meaningless times they faced on smackdown).

rumble 2003

unforgiven 2002

raw cage match

wrestlemania 2001

judgment day 2001, 2/3 falls

backlash 2001, ultimate submission

i'll add arguments after i finish watching my movie.

January 26, 2003

Not to be an ass, but isn't the sharpshooter supposed to target the back? Also, I always felt that there were problems with most of their matches. That's not to say that I don't thoroughly enjoy their matches, but there always seems to be slightly spotty selling. Sometimes I think any of their mistakes are glossed over (cause there AAngle and Benoit for Chrissake) while RVD and Edge get roasted. As far as comparing all their singles stuff

Unforgiven

Wrestlemania

rumble

Judgement Day

Cage match

submission

January 26, 2003

You have a point about the psyche, benoit's sharpshooter and angle slamming benoit's shoulder into the post seemed like 'token' bits that would work up to the other's guy's submission hold. I think Angle could do to pin a few guys with the angle slam before WM, because the anklelock is strong enough and you need to keep people guessing with a pinfall finisher for it to stay fresh. Angle kicked out of 3 stunners at SS2001, and it worked, but of course that was the most established move in wrestling.

January 26, 2003

The match at Rumble, in my opinion, is about **** 3/4. Probably **** 1/2 for the action, and an extra notch for the emotion at the very end.

I personally prefer their Unforgiven match. The wrestling is better, the technique is better, and it seems a little more innovative. So to me, that match gets ***** and was obviously the singles match of the year last year.

The RAW cage match just completely blew me away when I watched it. It gave me goosebumps watching the moonsault and the diving headbutt, and it made me very angry that this match was rarely mentioned afterwards. It also didn't pop a rating, which dissapointed me as well. However, it still stands out as one of my favorite cage matches, and I think it warrants about **** 1/2

WrestleMania X7 - This match was the reason I bought the ppv. Sure, Rock and Austin made me excited too, but if Benoit/Angle hadn't have been added, I doubt I would've ordered it honestly. This match was just so cool on so many levels, because at that point, I had never seen a display of amateur wrestling that was played out for that long. The finish is a little anticlimatic, but the match is still **** 1/2. With a better finish, it probably would rank higher

Judgement Day 2/3 Falls match - This match was good, don't get me wrong, but I found it a little dissapointing. I haven't seen it in over a year but I remember thinking it was about **** 1/2. With those stipulations though, I was expecting a ***** classic

Backlash - Good match... but rushed. Would've been better if in the span of 30 minutes, they would've had just one submission a piece with the winning submission coming at the end. Either way... it's Benoit/Angle, and I've never seen them have a below **** match, and that's what I give this one.

JustJoe2k5 · January 26, 2003

I think that their cage match from Raw is War '01 was one of their best encounters. They did all the amazing matwork they usually do and added insane moves involving the cage. I have their Unforgiven '02 match downloaded on KaZaA, but I have yet to watch it. I have their Wrestlemania '01 match on tape and watched their Backlash '01 Ultimate Submission and Royal Rumble '03 matches on PPV. I didn't find their Royal Rumble '03 match as enjoyable as their previous encounters probably because they fought twice withen the course of a month and have faced each other in various tag team and three-way encounters on Smackdown.

January 26, 2003

The main thing this had over the others was the clean finish, no tights, no feet on the ropes and, I was glad to see, no team angle run in.

January 26, 2003

I don't really like giving star ratings, but the Rumble match was just awesome. The best part was that it didn't suffer from the crappy match before them and I thought that the crowd was great. I think I would put the Rumble match a notch better than the Unforgiven match. The matches were both great technically, but the Rumble match had more emotion, and that counts for something IMO.

January 26, 2003

I will say that as far as story line wrestling goes, Their rumble match was great. But again, I see gaps in their work that could just reflect the whole WWE style, or maybe (gasp) they do have some flaws in their psychology. I don't know, I'm not that great at picking out the little moments of psychology, as I am new to this, but it just seemed like their selling, while excellent short term, some times seems to taper off. But like I said, I've noticed a lot of that in the WWE matches that I've seen.

January 26, 2003

Wrestlemania X-7. First time for the initial wrestling segment, only to see Benoit outdo Angle and Angle try to turn it into a brawl. Good psychology. Weak ending, but understandable since they wanted to continue the feud. Number three on the list that I have seen. ****1/4

Backlash 2001. The submission thing really hurt this match. It was nice for them to get 30+ minutes, and it got good towards the end with Angle simply trying to run out the clock once he had the lead, but it didn't seem to flow for most of it. Their choice of submissions at times didn't make much sense given the way they were working over each other. Out of the ones that I will give a rating too, it is the worst. Still good, but not great. ***1/2

Insurrextion 2001. Here we go. Until Royal Rumble, this was my favourite match between the two. Similar to the Wrestlemania match, but improved in terms of psychology and the ending. Angle is noticebly distracted, and lets his anger get out of control causing him to make several mistakes on his way to losing to Benoit in two straight falls. ****3/4

Judgement Day 2001. Had a lot to live up to after the Insurrextion match, and couldn't do it. The first fall is only a minute long, and it has a screwy ending, which is forgiveable since it is answered later in the night in the tag team turmoil. The second fall is the best of the match, and works better than the Backlash match. The ladder portion is good until the E&C interruption. ***3/4

Cage Match. I've seen it, and it was fun but not that great. The weakest of them all, but I only saw it once and don't have it on tape so I won't give a rating to it.

Unforgiven 2002. Have not seen.

Royal Rumble 2003. I will be very surprised if I see a better match this year. It builds slowly throughout and has the best ending of any match since HHH/Cactus in the HIAC. In the other matches they clearly spend the first part of the match trying to impress each other (and their egos), but here they forego that and simply try to win, which is a good decision with the title on the line and the history these two have together. About the only thing I didn't like is Benoit going for the Angle Lock after having Kurt in the Crossface and working over his back for the last 8 minutes. But both guys do that in all their matches, so it hardly affects our discussion here. ****3/4

I would just like to add, that the previous match killed the crowd, and as such during the early part of this match and the entrances, they got no reaction. By the end the crowd was on their feet.

January 26, 2003

I will say that the ending segment, where Angle slaps on about a half dozen ankle locks, and then finally finishes him off with a modified heel hook is absolutely killer. Like I said in a different post, this should set up a program where Benoit realizes that Angle is the superior mat wrestler and so he reverts to his Puro roots and starts brawling and suplexing the shit out of Angle. That would finally end their feud with Angle proving something and Benoit proving two things. Angle would prove that he is indeed the greatest technical wrestler in American wrestling, and Benoit would prove that he is A) the greatest all around wrestler B ) He can win thebig one against his nemisis.

January 26, 2003

There's one match that I think we've forgotten about...

They had a Smackdown main event match shortly after Unforgiven. It was good for what it was, which was like 7 minutes I think. 7 minutes of Angle vs. Benoit = no less than ***

January 26, 2003

Psych holes?

There were NUMEROUS pysch holds in good old Trips run in 2000 that everyone LOVES. As for Benoit/Angle 1/03, there may be a few, but not anything you mentioned.

The "bad" leg was played into the first half of the match. The two teases of the sharpshooter leading up to the actual move lead to: 1.) a pop from the crowd and 2.) a legitimate near submission, even though you knew in the back of your head that the match would continue.

You say he dropped off the leg. He did, but because the leg work was SMART killing off of time early. The second portion of the match went to his STRONG point, the crossface, which he has had Angle tap too before.

I have seen ONE match, that has used submission's all the way to the end on body parts (1/96 Otani v Sammy). I would rather see smart thought out work than mindless brawling or mindless mat work *aka amateur stuff".

And by the way, if you gave this match ****, you seriously couldn't have given any of WEEEEEEEEE match higher than ****1/2? Or could you?

Tim

January 26, 2003

Does every single one of your posts here have to somehow include a dig at Triple H's run in 2000? You didn't like the matches- WE GET IT ALREADY.

The X-7 match was awesome- I love the mat wrestling at the beginning with the crowds ovations increasing for each sequence.

The Unforgiven and Royal Rumble matches gave me heart attacks watching them live- I was on the edge of my seat for both matches.

I've never seen a bad match between the two-but I've yet to see the Backlash match.

January 26, 2003

My only problem with Benoit vs. Angle is that all of their matches is based on the WM match - as in, one tries to outdo the other. Angle has solved the crossface, Benoit has solved the ankle lock - shouldn't these guys- these 'masters of submission', these 'technical monsters', these 'kings of new england'- be able to bring in NEW BETTER MOVES? And then there is the whole German Suplex Fiasco - Benoit, you know the dragon suplex, WORK IT IN. If the Regular German can't get it done, if the 3 in a row can't get it done, then you bring it up a notch and play the trump card. This is something that just bothers me their whole 2 year feud - they never go beyond their WM 17 match.

January 26, 2003

Benoit/Angle was fucking awesome (****1/4 in my book). I personally loved the finish, which reminded me of the Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Volk Han 1/22/97 RINGS all-time classic. This was easily the best match I've seen from WWF/E since Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin at Wrestlemania 13.

TheOriginalOrangeGoblin · January 26, 2003

Here's how I rank'em:

Royal Rumble 03/Wrestlemania X7 - ****1/2 each.

RR had a slower build with a weak crowd for the first half and two restholds. WM had the shittiest ending possible.

Unforgiven 02 - ****1/4

Too short IMO to be better than the others and again the let down was teh ending.

Cage match - ***3/4

Pretty good but in a cage match I expect less technical wrestling and mored attempts to escape. Doesn't touch Hart/Hart(best cage match ever).

Don't remember JD or Backlash too well.

January 26, 2003

Hey, personally I love the matchups, but again that's because I love Benoit and Angle so I'm actually a bit harder on their matches.

January 26, 2003

ok, back with ratings & arguments:

rumble 03, ****1/2-****3/4: awesome, awesome stuff. to address chunk's concerns:

some people subscribe to the later era bret hart strategy that the same body part should be worked the entire match, some people subscribe to the ric flair strategy that a wrestler should go after whatever there's an opening for at the time. it's just a difference of opinion. i personally prefer the flair strategy, as it makes the match seem less contrived and more spontaneous. i don't have a problem with benoit abandoning the leg after the sharpshooter, but i think their build to it was awkward and forced. it felt like, "okay, you came back from a knee injury so let's go ahead & build to the sharpshooter spot and get it over with before we get to the good stuff" than like benoit was really trying to win the match with it.

what's wrong with kicking out of more than one finisher? when done properly, it makes the opponent look like a million bucks. as mentioned before, angle took 3 stunners at summerslam 01 (which i still feel was his best match ever) and nobody ever bitched about it. you might as well bitch about benoit using the crossface 2 or 3 times in a match and never getting a submission with it (as he often does with angle).

unforgiven 02, ****1/2: after watching this match once i thought it was better than the rumble, but i've changed my opinion after watching it again. the ending doesn't hurt it too much, & it's still an amazing match, but it just doesn't have the intensity of the rumble.

cage match, ****1/4: spoterrific goodness, & i quite enjoyed the strategy of wearing the guy down with the same move over & over again to make it meaningful.

wrestlemania, ****: great beginning, but it isn't all that & a bag of chips. it makes a gradual descent into a really good, typical wwf match, & aside from the mat wrestling it doesn't have the uniqueness of the above three.

judgment day, ***1/2: everything looked good, but they didn't quite seem to be feeling it, and it was rather predictable.

backlash, ***1/2: see above.

January 26, 2003

From all the matches the RR match had the best finish, just seeing Angle going skitzo with the ankle lock and Benoit dying to get to the ropes...just perfect.

January 26, 2003

The whole working a body part for the whole match debate is pointless because the WWEEEEEEEEE NEVER does that in matches. I have seen less than 5 matches where one part is sold the ENTIRE time or worked over the entire time. To criticize the match for that is ridiculous.

For a match where a body part is worked over and sold the whole time, check out 12/3/93 Misawa/Kobashi v Kawada/Taue where Kawada does an EPIC selling job.

As for Benoit/Angle, personally it is at around ****1/4. It is better than my MOTYC's from last year (11/9 Styles v Dragon and 3/30 Ki v Dragon).

Tim, who loves that people love the HHH 2000 stuff so much

Chunk · January 26, 2003

some people subscribe to the later era bret hart strategy that the same body part should be worked the entire match, some people subscribe to the ric flair strategy that a wrestler should go after whatever there's an opening for at the time. it's just a difference of opinion.

Ok, thats a fair point. I would just have to say then that Im more a fan of the Hart strategy. It just makes more sense to me that you should pick a startegy and stick with it. Otherwise, your opponent could, and by the time you have worked his back and neck and leg etc, you could have had your leg broken, or been forced to submit by 30 minutes of constant abuse to your arm.

Perhaps its just more of a personal thing.

Applying it to Benoit/Angle RR 03, Benoit could have reinjured the knee of angle if had stuck with it, way quicker than Angle had the chance to severly damage the fresh ankle of Benoit.

The "bad" leg was played into the first half of the match. The two teases of the sharpshooter leading up to the actual move lead to: 1.) a pop from the crowd and 2.) a legitimate near submission, even though you knew in the back of your head that the match would continue.

You say he dropped off the leg. He did, but because the leg work was SMART killing off of time early. The second portion of the match went to his STRONG point, the crossface, which he has had Angle tap too before.

True, but this just proves my point. The early leg work and the sharpshooter lead to a near submition. So it makes no sense for Benoit to abandon that strategy and go to work on the neck and arm in preparation for the crossface.

Perhas im just splitting hair, and if I can understand the storyline that Benoit realises that he cant make Angle tap by work on the knee, so he switches to something he has used to success before, and is more familair with (the crossface). Had it not been for the knee injury, then I would buy into this, but the injury just make the differnce for me. As I say, perhaps Im reading into it too much. I guess theres many ways of interpreting a match.

And by the way, if you gave this match ****, you seriously couldn't have given any of WEEEEEEEEE match higher than ****1/2? Or could you?

Thats the kind of response that I expected. But Im pleasently supprised that some people have a simialr view to me, and dont hold this match as close to a ***** as I thought they would.

As far as WWE matches higher that ****1/2 go, then yes there are probably two matches I would give more than that.

I dont pretend to have half the knowledge that some of the guys on this forum do, and I am only recently learning to understand wrestling from the Smark point of you. Therefore, I have seen few matches that I have been able to rate fairly. I have seen a great deal of stuff from a Marks point of you and I am re-watching old classics.

Anyway, Ive strayed from the point. I would give Savage/Steamboat ****3/4 from wrestlmania 3. I know that thats a ***** classic in many peoples eyes. But I knock the 1/4 off simply because I can not grasp the hype that went into the match. I wasnt watching wrestling for the years before that built to this match, so I cant give it *****. Purely because it would be arrogant of me to pretend that I can comprehend the hype and build behind it.

I would also give Rock/Hogan *****. Not because of the wrestling, but simply because a match like that could never happen again.

ChUnK!

January 27, 2003

I'll take a stab at it:

Benoit and Angle came into the match every other time doing the mat work as basically a display, a play at who was the better mat wrestler. This match, there's a title on the line. Immediately it becomes a pro wrestling match with more on the line, especially for Benoit. His first inclination is to work the leg and go after a submission. He goes for the Sharpshooter, and after two teases the crowd is buying into it and Benoit gets a near submission. At this point, rather than try again for another near submission Benoit mixes things up and goes after the part of the body where he knows he can get a submission. They do a decent enough job playing off their other matches. Angle finally using the heel hook to lock up the reversal sequence was a great ending.

January 27, 2003

*awaiting flaming about Rock/Hogan*

WMX7 - ****3/4. This match just blew my mind. 1/4* off for the finish, but the rest of it is pure gold.

Backlash - ***1/2. Nah, this just didn't work. The submissions seemed random but around the end it got good.

JD - ****. This wasn't as good as it could have been. The first fall was fun and harmless, the second got into their great matwork the way Backlash couldn't, and the third was a solid ladder match, but nothing remotely hitting a highspot and hardly a story there kinda killed it.

Cage - ****1/2. Wow. This match fucking rocked it. Moonsault and headbutt off the cage were both beautiful. Mat wrestling + great power moves + insane highspots = a winner in my book.

Unforgiven - ****1/2. Now this was basically a technical outing, but when these two are doing it there's nothing wrong with that. All around great psychology with a cool little ending made for another winner.

RR - *****. This one takes the cake by far. Before this these men had been all about technicality and matwork, but here they just went ahead and sent me on an absolute roller coaster ride. Great emotion and tons of near falls had me loving every second of it.

January 27, 2003

The fact that Benoit might abandon one body part to go for another one isn't all that out of line. Boxers often use a strategy of hitting body blows for a period only to have the opponent drop his hands and hit the knock out. Sometimes ya just gotta get the guy thinking about something else before you kill him.

January 27, 2003

WMX7: ***** the rest of the match was so awsm, I can ignore the lame finish.

Unforgiven: ****3/4 Too much like the above match, only with a different finish

Cage Match: **** good match, really good match.

January 27, 2003

Wm X-7 come off really rushed as they established a story but never moved with it really. I mean, the mat wrestling was good but Angle got gassed, the story was there, Benoit got the brawling to mean more than filler, but the finish just comes out quick and the story never peaks out as a whole and the match just feels rushed.

January 27, 2003

Well I don't do star ratings anymore. All I can say was that this was my personal favorite Benoit/Angle match. Why? Because it was clean. I don't think there hasn't ever been a Benoit/Angle match where something screwy wasn't going on(run-ins, feet on the ropes, etc.).

January 27, 2003

One match I haven't heard metioned is the Angle/Benoit match at Insurrection 2000. This is around **** I believe, I could be wrong because I never closely watched the match to rate it.

Its an interesting match as Benoit plays the face, but Angle has the crowd behind him until he cuts the Anti-British promo.

If you've seen it whats your opinon on the match?

Chunk · January 27, 2003

The fact that Benoit might abandon one body part to go for another one isn't all that out of line. Boxers often use a strategy of hitting body blows for a period only to have the opponent drop his hands and hit the knock out. Sometimes ya just gotta get the guy thinking about something else before you kill him.

Boxing is diferent though. By working the body, you can get the guy to lower his guard and through the knock out punch.

By working the knee of Angle, his shoulder and neck doesnt become any more or less exposed than it was to start. True, he may be thinking about his knee, and hence be more likely get hit with a full on corss face. But he was just back from injury, so the knee had to be on his mind anyway.

People have made good points, and Ive come to the conclusion that the difference here is the Injury. If Benoit had wrestled that match without Angle having the exisiting knee injury, then the switch between body parts wouldnt have bothered me. I guess its just a personal thing that I think it would have been better to stay on the knee, that was allready weakend.

Lets not nick pick over it any more, its a ****+ in anyones book.

ChUnK!

Angle Vs Benoit

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