Who is the greatest face of the past 30 years?

January 30, 2003

Austin is the best babyface ever because he redefined the term "babyface".

AustinHHH4Life hit the nail right on the head. That's precisely why I would pick Austin over Hogan as the greater face. Hogan's schtick was to tell his Hulkamaniacs to do exactly what he did, no questions asked. Train, say your prayers, eat your vitamins.

Austin basically threw that out the window and told people to do what they wanted, to think for themselves. That's a much more sophisticated way of thinking than Hogan's ham-handed pied piper approach, and that's what made him so beloved by the crowds.

As for the argument about who could have been Hogan if there was no Hogan, Jimmy Snuka was the absolute favourite babyface of the WWF before the Hulkamania machine even rolled out of the factory. He was strong, agile, had a killer finisher, and was loved by everyone. He could have definitely been the top face if Bollea had stayed with Gagne's stale, slowly sinking ship.

January 30, 2003

Snuka had too much of a drug problem and was wayyyyyy too unstable to hold up over the course of the ten years or so that Hogan did. Shoot, add the extra pressure of being on top of the heap and carrying the company, Snuka would probably be dead by now.

Gagne's ship was stale, but not because of Hogan. It was because Verne kept putting himself and Nick Bockwinkle on top when they were both totally past their primes. Verne was just about the worst promoter ever.

Oh and as far as revolutionizing the business, Hogan was pretty much the forerunner to the hosses of today where 'larger than life' stars became what promoters wanted to create in order to draw crowds. Before Hogan, anyone that was "large" was basically a fat guy; Hogan changed that.

January 30, 2003

As for the argument about who could have been Hogan if there was no Hogan, Jimmy Snuka was the absolute favourite babyface of the WWF before the Hulkamania machine even rolled out of the factory. He was strong, agile, had a killer finisher, and was loved by everyone. He could have definitely been the top face if Bollea had stayed with Gagne's stale, slowly sinking ship.

Snuka was indeed the top babyface next to Hogan, but that doesn't mean that he would have had the same effect that Hogan had.

Snuka's drug problems were already mentioned, so I won't expand on them. Also of note, is that Snuka never ONCE cut an interview that you could even remotely UNDERSTAND. Let me know if you'd like me to post the transcripts of some of Snuka's promos. They're pretty funny to read.

There's a difference between being the top face in the promotion, and having the same effect that Hulk Hogan had. Snuka was a great babyface, but he wouldn't have had the same effect as Hogan did.

-Corey

January 30, 2003

Steamboat no doubt about it.

January 30, 2003

I think Steamboat and maybe Tito Santana are the only guys left that wrestled their entire careers as babyfaces without even one heel turn.

-Corey

January 30, 2003

Ok so I contradicted myself. Excuse me I meant any big guy. Of course some little guy that had no muscles couldn't have been Hogan.

You guys keep asking me to name one. But I DON'T KNOW EVERY GUY IN TRAINING CAMPS AROUND THE COUNTRY AT THE TIME! And if you do well then you are pretty informed.

I'm saying if Vince had never gotten Hogan he could've walked into some training camp(and i don't know which or what wrestlers were there) and found a guy with a similar look to Hogan and slapped the title on him and given him Hogan's whole act and push. Then the AWA would've died and Hogan would've been nothing.

Wrestling was still a dirty word when Hogan was on top. Steve Austin made it mainstream. And I don't remember the fans tiring of Austin. In 2001 his heel turn didn't work b/c they still wanted to cheer him. In 2002 he didn't headline WM because he was stuck wrestling the drunkard Hall, it had nothing to do with the fans being tired of him. Notice the RAW ratings jump and the fans going crazy for him when he isn't even there. Yes Hogan got a big pop but Hogan doesn't draw anymore. Hogan is a nostalgia act. Austin still has money making left in him and I gurantee that most wrestling fans like Austin over Hogan.

So thank you. Now go ahead and make another condescending post if you feel like it. I'm through debating about an opinion. You have your own opinion and I have mine. And you aren't changing my mind and I'm obviously not changing yours.

January 30, 2003

So wrestling is a CLEAN word now? Bullshit. It's still looked down upon.

Dama, my problem isn't with you saying Austin is the greatest babyface, my problem is with you saying "any one could have been Hogan". You even admit that you can't name anyone, yet you still make that statement.

January 30, 2003

You want a condescending response? My responses aren't any more condescending than yours were to the other posters that challenged your opinion. My responses are just longer and maybe in a bit more detail. If you're not capble of taking it as well as you can dish it out, that's not my problem. It's yours.

Ok so I contradicted myself. Excuse me I meant any big guy. Of course some little guy that had no muscles couldn't have been Hogan.

Ok, fair enough.

You guys keep asking me to name one. But I DON'T KNOW EVERY GUY IN TRAINING CAMPS AROUND THE COUNTRY AT THE TIME!

I'll settle for you naming just one guy.

Y'see, The problem, is that you discount Hogan's abilities as if everyone his size could do the same thing. But you completely fail to back it up by pointing out any wrestlers besides Hogan that could do it. You don't even know if there WERE any guys like that being trained for that matter.

I'm saying if Vince had never gotten Hogan he could've walked into some training camp(and i don't know which or what wrestlers were there) and found a guy with a similar look to Hogan and slapped the title on him and given him Hogan's whole act and push.

And that's where everyone is trying to get you to back up your argument. You say this, but without anything to back it up, you simply sound like someone who simply hates Hogan and is blindly bashing him and discounting any accomplishments that he made.

Hogan wasn't just a big blonde guy. He was a wrestler that had the ability to connect with the audience and draw them in. He had a personality that people liked, and an energy and a persona that made people want to watch him. You blow this off as if it's nothing, but if that were the case, there'd be a lot more people like Hogan running around.

And why would Vince want to go to a training camp and get someone, when Hogan was already DOING his Hulkamania gimmick in the AWA? Hogan didn't slap the gimmick on Hogan. Hogan was already using it. Vince just gave Hogan a larger forum to to it in.

Then the AWA would've died and Hogan would've been nothing.

Again, not true. If Hogan had never gone to the WWF, he'd have been big in Japan, as he'd already made a very good name for himself over there.

Wrestling was still a dirty word when Hogan was on top. Steve Austin made it mainstream.

Wrong on both counts.

1. Wrestling is still the same dirty word now, that it was 20 years ago. 20 years ago, wrestling was seen as a fake 'sport' that catered to trailer park trash. Today, wrestling is seen as an extremely violent tit & ass fest designed to cater to children and young males.

2. Hogan made wrestling mainstream long before Austin did. If wrestling wasn't considered mainstream, it would have never gotten national coverage on MTV, and the mainstream news media with the addition of stars like Cindy Lauper and Mr. T to WWF storylines. You ALSO wouldn't have seen major celebrities attending live Wrestling cards and major PPVs where there would be mainstream TV coverage. If wrestling hadn't ALREADY been the "in thing" in the 80s, no self-respecting celebrity would have gone anywhere near it. Look at the roster of stars that attended and in many cases played active roles in virtually every wrestlemania since the beginning. Their involvement alone proves that wrestling was already in the mainstream.

Austin came along at the perfect time in the 90s, as wrestling had fallen into a slump. Austin's new attitude helped bring wrestling back to the forefront and he did a fantastic job of it. But he didn't do it FIRST.

And I don't remember the fans tiring of Austin. In 2001 his heel turn didn't work b/c they still wanted to cheer him. In 2002 he didn't headline WM because he was stuck wrestling the drunkard Hall, it had nothing to do with the fans being tired of him.

But it had everything to do with Austin no longer being the draw that he once was. So yes, the fans HAD gotten tired of him.

Notice the RAW ratings jump and the fans going crazy for him when he isn't even there. Yes Hogan got a big pop but Hogan doesn't draw anymore. Hogan is a nostalgia act.

Well, no one is arguing that Hogan 20 YEARS PAST HIS PRIME can outdraw Austin. The question wasn't about who is the biggest drawing babyface TODAY. It was who was the greatest babyface of the past 30 years. Just because Hogan today can't draw like Austin, doesn't mean that Hogan was NEVER a big draw. Again, you're just using your dislike of Hogan (as opposed to some actual facts as the basis of your argument.

Austin still has money making left in him and I gurantee that most wrestling fans like Austin over Hogan.

Again, no one is disputing that point. I actually LIKE Austiin, and hope that he comes back. OF COURSE he has some money making left in him. You seem to have changed the basis of the argument around (which usually happens when one finds himself on the losing end of the original discussion)

I'm through debating about an opinion.

Oh, you didn't mind it when people weren't challenging you. You had a great time responding to everyone that disagreed with you before. But when someone really puts a good argument out, you suddenly are through?

You have your own opinion and I have mine. And you aren't changing my mind and I'm obviously not changing yours.

I thought message boards were SUPPOSED to be about sharing opinions. You just can't handle someone challenging YOURS.

-Corey

January 30, 2003

An interesting topic, which has led me to ponder a few questions.

Steve Austin revolutionised what it meant to be a face - but how beneficial has that been to the business? With many of the faces getting over due to heelish acts, have we been deprived of good heel/face dynamics? Why shouldn't there be a few faces who are truly "good" guys? Is the Austin-pioneered badass act stale already, or can it be revived? We all saw the dilemmas Austin faced during his 2001 heel run - how could he be booed when so much of his character was already heelish? He tried to go the cowardly route, but the cowardly heel champ is something that I would argue no longer works, and hasn't worked for quite some time. Any thoughts?

January 30, 2003

Austin 3:16 was a product of the times, and not the other way around. Characters in all types of popular media (television, movies, comic books, etc.) seem to be more popular when they inhabit that gray area between good and bad. It hits home for more people since no one is cut-and-dried black or white, so there's more to relate to.

It's not like they actively sought to turn Austin face... it's what the times and the fanbase demanded. So until the general wrestling-viewing populace adopts a more stringently dichotomous view of right and wrong, I don't see us going back to the Hulkamania era of good ol' US heroes and evil, backstabbing cheaters, foreigners, etc.

As for the next evolution of the face/heel paradigm, I think we're moving toward fans who can truly appreciate actual wrestling. Look no further than Kurt Angle, who is probably the best overall wrestler in the company, is the top heel of SmackDown!, yet still gets cheered for his wrestling talent. Guys like him, Benoit, Guerrero, and if they ever unleash him, Lesnar, will probably be the force behind the next paradigm shift, while kick-and-punch brawlers like UT and HHH will be left in the dust.

January 30, 2003

I don't know if Austin revolutionized what it meant to be a face because he did all the same stuff Hogan did in the 80's, just with middle fingers. They still did the face formula with him, they still did the chase, the beatdowns, the triumphant returns. Austin saving Steph on the cross wasn't a face move? Austin was true to himself - as evidenced when he turned face vs Bret, a man who wasn't true to himself. The only difference is it was Austins heel antics which made him a face - but couldn't that be said of flair as well?

January 30, 2003

They did the face formula with Austin only because once he became a full-fledged face, there was no other way to book him. The difference is the underlying character of the two. Hogan was a jingoistic patriotic hero figure who laid out all his tenets for good living right from the start, yet contradicted himself by bending the rules now and then. Austin was a lone wolf renegade who let you know right away that he was not a role model, and bent the rules from start to finish to accomplish his goals. He never once said, "I'm your hero. Do as I say," and did the exact opposite. That's why the fans flocked to him. Not his won-loss record, but for the person he was inside and out.

As for Flair, no matter how he cheated, he always a) came out on top, and b) looked good doing it. And he let you know it, too.

January 30, 2003

"The more things change, the more they stay the same"

Austin was the Working Class Hero.

Hogan was the All American Super Hero.

Both are Heros. Both pandered to the fans. Both fought "bad guys".

January 30, 2003

So if and when Angle turns face for good, which will he be?

The bad-ass Olympic milquetoast super athlete?

January 30, 2003

My list (in no particular order)

Hogan - sheer popularity, being loved by kids, being the all-American hero

Austin - redefined the word babyface

Bret Hart - always true to his character. He never really turned heel. He stood for morality, and we turned on him.

Foley - at the end of his run, he was the most sympathetic guy on the roster. Maybe the most sympathetic guy in wrestling history.

January 30, 2003

Bret Hart - always true to his character. He never really turned heel. He stood for morality, and we turned on him.

Technically, he started as a heel. And technically, he did turn on his morality by hitting people with chairs and such. But for the sake of argument, I agree with the crux of your reasoning. Even though everyone came out of SurSer '97 looking like shit, Bret's probably still one of my faves of all time.

January 30, 2003

Hart never turned. What happened after the WrestleMania match? The RAW promo? Start there and follow it, you'll see him change.

January 30, 2003

Well, Hogan had some pretty shitty sportsmanship. I noticed the other day that he totally interfered with the main event of WrestleMania 4, not only beating Andre (the other interrupter) at ringside, but going in the ring and chairshotting DiBiase so that Savage could get the win.

This from the guy who was preaching things like being honest. O_o

Although the Austin babyface turn was more or less WM14, they did almost nothing different with him than what they were doing before. As such, there suddently grew this great big grey sorta-kinda-babyface territory, where it's okay to cheer the guy using the foul language and who's only interest is himself.

I wouldn't say Austin really changed what babyface means (especially since we've been reverting back to clear cut faces/heels again in his absence), I'd probably say the phrase babyface broadened simply to allow Austin.

Also, he may or may not have been beaten to it by the NWO, which had a pretty big following (even if so much of it was do to politics and going over everyone) and was (or at least was SUPPOSED to be) the first kind of "you choose whether you like these guys acting cool in the sunglasses and black shirts, or these traditional babyface guys" angle.

What Austin signified was WWE's ability to change based on audience reaction and give a full 100% marketing megapush behind the guy that the crowd decided they really liked. Since this aspect seems to be completely gone from today's product (aside from minor pushes like BookDust), I'm not exactly sure how that changed the business anything more than temporarily.

January 30, 2003

My pick would be Hogan, especially since longetivity is an important factor to me. 2003 is almost an entirely different wrestling generation from 1983.

As for Austin, he wouldn't of been as big if it wasn't for Montreal. The feud with Vinnie Mac put him on top.

January 30, 2003

The Austin/Hart feud should really be studied - they did a ton of great stuff in it.

January 30, 2003

That's about the only thing in this thread that is undebatable. It's what brought me back to wrestling for good after the doldrums of the early-mid '90s.

January 30, 2003

No I'm through because you're asking me to name someone when like I said I don't know every person in training camp at the time. I really do think personally though that if you took a big blonde guy with charisma and average wrestling skills out of a training camp and Vince gave him the entire character that it would've been something. I didn't say Vince wanted to do this. He didn't have to because he had Hogan right there under his nose. But I'm saying he could've done it just as well on his own.

January 30, 2003

It also helped that Hogan was programmed to win against all comers, especially all the big behemoths that were viewed as unstoppable. Given that kind of booking, it's no wonder he got over.

Who is the greatest face of the past 30 years?

Recommended Posts

Guest notJames

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest Goodear

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest Corey291

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest THE MIGHTY THOR

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest Corey291

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest The Mighty Damaramu

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest RavishingRickRudo

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest Corey291

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest The Hamburglar

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest notJames

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest RavishingRickRudo

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest notJames

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest RavishingRickRudo

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest notJames

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest Razor Roman

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest notJames

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest Brian

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest Jobber of the Week

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest pappajacks

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest RavishingRickRudo

Share this post