Who is the greatest face of the past 30 years?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Ok, name some BACK THEN who could have.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

I don't know! I didn't watch the AWA. But you could pull any big guy with charisma off the street and run him through a tough enough crash course and he'd wrestle just as well as Hogan. What I'm saying is that anybody with Hogan's build and charisma could've done the same thing.

Listen there is no way you guys are going to change my mind. In my OPINION Austin is the biggest star ever.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Well gee, why don't you just say "any one that looked like Hulk Hogan, Talked Like Hulk Hogan, Wrestled Like Hulk Hogan, and Had the Charisma of Hulk Hogan could have been in Hogans place". If you don't know then don't say it, it's as simple as that.

 

Mighty, I hear people say all the time that anyone could have been put in Austins gimmick and given Austins push and would have made the WWF just as big. I dismiss that too because there *is* only one Austin just like there *is* only one Hogan. I personally am not trying to change your opinion of Austin - but this "Anyone could have been in Hogan's spot" is ridiculous because you can't prove that to be true so it's not worth saying.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

Hogan may have been popular, but he was a lousy face. He cheated more than Dibiase & Rude.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Hogan made millions of fans believe in him. How can you call someone a 'lousy face' when the outcome is the same as a 'great face'? That's sorta like HHH saying that RVD isn't main event material because he can't work the main event style and that he can't cut a promo so therefore he won't be over with the fans... But here's the thing: he *is* over with the fans, so that just throws the whole notion out the window.

[Guest Banky]

Steve Austin. No doubt. Hands down. Best ever.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

Hogan made millions of fans believe in him. How can you call someone a 'lousy face' when the outcome is the same as a 'great face'? That's sorta like HHH saying that RVD isn't main event material because he can't work the main event style and that he can't cut a promo so therefore he won't be over with the fans... But here's the thing: he *is* over with the fans, so that just throws the whole notion out the window.

I wasn't being serious.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I've heard that criticism elsewhere, so it didn't register as a joke...

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

I know its true, but as you said being over is the goal. Austin wasn't exactly a model citizen either.

 

I would go with Ricky Steamboat though, simply for longevity purposes. I don't ever remember him as a heel.

[Guest creativename]

I would say that Austin, absolutely without question, is the top babyface of the modern era.

 

There is certainly some validity that "anyone could have been Hogan." While of course "anybody" is a great exaggeration, and most likely no one else would have quite reached his levels of popularity, there were other candidates. Hogan got so big because he was Vince's "Chosen One", and no one in history has gotten a bigger push. I, like many others, believe that if Hogan hadn't become what he did, Piper would have come close.

 

Also, the fact that non-wrestling fans thought of Hogan as a bad joke--and wrestling fans themselves have gotten fed up with his act on multiple occassions--is a major mark against him. While 80's era Hogan defines the term "babyface" to me, it was Austin that was really the greatest fan favorite ever.

 

Austin (as much as I can't stand him, never could) and the nWo were the first things that ever made wrestling cool. Before that, it was considered an embarassing vice. And no one has ever drawn as much money--or almost singlehandedly saved a promotion (he had help of course, but he was the only single factor that if you removed him, the WWF would have gone bankrupt). While Austin's schtick might have gotten stale, the fans never really stopped cheering for it. Austin would be #1 in the hearts of more wrestling fans than any other wrestler, and by a good margin too. Though I think that in the end, few can match Hogan's longevity, much of that longevity is contrived; the way he would always leave and come back artificially extended his longevity. He's still over after almost two decades, but he only spent a little more than half of that time actually wrestling. Still very impressive, but not enough to make up for all the other ways he doesn't match up to Austin.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

I love that "anybody could have been Hogan" line. Ultimate Warrior tried, and bombed miserably.

 

I have to say Hogan followed by Zombie Undertaker, because the guy could never have a serious heel turn because everyone thought the campy gimmick was just so cool. Bikertaker is a different matter entirely, and is generally met with indifference whether face or heel.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

The myth of the Mcmahon Machine...

 

If Hogan was a result of a push - then why have we only seen *one* other man get as high as he did?

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

RRR = Correct. Every man who tries to be Hogan winds up being Lex Luger or Warrior.. And I mean, eew.

[Guest godthedog]

I know its true, but as you said being over is the goal. Austin wasn't exactly a model citizen either.

 

I would go with Ricky Steamboat though, simply for longevity purposes. I don't ever remember him as a heel.

ricky's on record saying he never wrestled a single match in his career as a heel.

 

i'm going with steamboat as well, as i've never seen anyone in my life play the babyface role in the ring as well as steamboat played it. i'm basing my decision on technique rather than numbers (cause i think it would be pretty stupid to claim, say, that 'titanic' was the greatest movie ever made simply because it made so much money). the dominance in the right places, the crispness of everything he did, the vulnerability he could show, the timing of his comebacks...it was impossible NOT to root for him. hogan & austin never got it down to an art like he did.

[Guest creativename]

The myth of the Mcmahon Machine...

 

If Hogan was a result of a push - then why have we only seen *one* other man get as high as he did?

Ah, the misconception of the "McMahon push myth".

 

No, it is not a myth. Every huge mega-star in history has gotten over because of a huge push. Yes, most attempts fail. Many do, however, succeed, from Bruno Sammartino to Pedro Morales to Hogan to Flair to Macho Man to Bret to HBK to Undertaker to Austin to Rock to HHH to Brock...etc. etc. Yes, most of these men were quite popular before their god-pushes; however, no one has ever reached uber-overness levels without a monumentous push. And if you have that certain something, an affinity, a connection with the fans (like Hogan and Piper), you have a great chance to attain extreme levels of success if given that push.

 

As I said, there were other candidates to for Hogan's push. In all likelihood, none would have gotten quite as big as he did--his charisma is undeniable. However, it is easy to conceive of a world where someone else got the push, got supremely over, and we're sitting here asking who else would have made it with that push? Hogan's charisma was not entirely unique.

 

And for no one else getting as big, well, others have gotten about as big for 3-4 year intervals--with Hogan, you can't underestimate his political machinations in keeping him at the top. After 3-4 years at the top, he wasn't really any kind of significant draw, but he was kept at the top because 1) inertia; people who make it to the top are hard to push off, 2) Turner management was under the delusion that he was a big draw and 3) his own politics.

 

Anyway, Hogan was "special"--few would deny this. My whole point was that Austin's impact on the industry was far more difficult to replicate (not saying Hogan's impact was easy, as it was not; but it was easier). Hogan didn't save the WWF, Austin did. Millions of fans who didn't give two shits about wrestling didn't start watching because of Hogan; they did do so because of Austin. This is evidence very much in favor of Austin being more beloved than Hogan.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

But Hogan gave Austin something to work from - no one gave that to Hogan. As I said before, WCW started the Wrestling boom with the NWO in 1996 - so this "Austin took nothing and made something" isn't exactly true. You talk about Hogan's inertia keeping him on top - well newtons laws works the other way around too.

 

Does a star need a push to get noticed? Of course, but to say that it's only the push which creates them is ridiculous because then why does McMahon go in these 'low' periods if he can just 'create' another Hogan, or Austin? He didn't with Bret, he didn't with Shawn, he didn't with Flair or Brock or HHH. He has just done it with two people.

[Guest creativename]

But Hogan gave Austin something to work from - no one gave that to Hogan.

What? How can you say that? Wrestling's been around for almost a century. It was already starting to pick up a lot of steam in the late 70's. Wrestling's situation before Hogan came around was probably better than it's situation when Austin came around; and certainly the WWF was much worse off.

 

As I said before, WCW started the Wrestling boom with the NWO in 1996 - so this "Austin took nothing and made something" isn't exactly true.

 

Yes, I also mentioned the nWo--IMO they're never given enough credit. This still doesn't take away from the fact that, everything considered, Austin's job was harder than Hogan's; i.e., he won more people over who wouldn't have been fans otherwise, than Hogan did.

 

You talk about Hogan's inertia keeping him on top - well newtons laws works the other way around too.

 

I assume you mean that people on the bottom stay there. Yes, exactly. And Hogan was always pushed (aside from being told to job for Nick Bockwinkel and refusing ). You have to give Austin credit for making it after not getting pushed despite his crowd reaction in WCW--few expected him to recover after that, and the whole Ringmaster thing. Though this doesn't really have anything to do with the discussion--my point about inertia was to counter the Hogan longevity point, before anybody brought it up.

 

Does a star need a push to get noticed?  Of course, but to say that it's only the push which creates them is ridiculous because then why does McMahon go in these 'low' periods if he can just 'create' another Hogan, or Austin?   He didn't with Bret, he didn't with Shawn, he didn't with Flair or Brock or HHH.  He has just done it with two people.

 

Four: Hogan, Macho Man, Austin, and Rock have all had extreme mainstream success. Hogan and Austin are on their own level, but Savage and Rock ain't chopped liver. And NWA did do it with Flair (and Vince would try to tell you he did it with HHH...but we won't got there...).

 

Anyway, why are you arguing points that no one has made? A push by itself doesn't make somebody...duh. And we can talk at length about McMahon's down periods (IMO it comes down to: 1) wrestling is indeed cyclical; 2) he often has no clue about who to give the monster push to; and 3) he doesn't give the fans want they want, in general). Just because Luger, and most of Vince's attempts, flopped, doesn't mean there weren't other people who could have done well in Hogan's place. Which is my whole point.

 

Again, not saying Hogan wasn't a phenomenon--just that he wasn't as important, or as popular, as Austin. The fact that someone else could very well have been the "Chosen One" instead of Hogan is merely one point supporting this statement.

[Guest Super Pissed Smark]

Obviously, if they never give you the big push, you can't really get over because the fans won't back someone who always loses. But I can't see how anybody can say it's all about the push when Vince keeps trying to push guys who aren't going to get over no matter what he does because they absolutely, positively, irrevocably suck. Nobody will ever love them. I also don't understand this insistence that anyone could have gotten so over in Hogan's spot with Vince. Could Ventura? Big John Studd? Ivan Putski? Muscles and blond-ish, but I have a hard time picturing it. Hogan had it, and you just can't manufacture that, ask Lex and Warrior and everyone else Vince tried it with. You can't fit that square peg.

 

Number one has to be Austin, he made me a fan again after a long absence, and made a lot of people who never watched wrestling tune in. He set the stage for the great wrestling boom of the late 90's and set the measuring stick against which all other faces will have to be judged. Put anyone you want up against Austin in the WWF and the fans will side with the Rattlesnake.

[Guest Mole]

Wait a second, fans thought Hogan was a joke?

 

Then how did he pull DOUBLE the ratings that Austin did?

[Guest Super Pissed Smark]

Fans certainly didn't think of Hogan as a joke in the prime of his run, but I'm not sure if you can just compare ratings from back then to ratings a few years ago. Probably have to look at total viewership or something to get a more accurate picture. They both sure sold out a lot of arenas, that's for sure.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

no one has ever reached uber-overness levels without a monumentous push.

Dude, AWA crowds would nearly riot every time Verne Gagne kept refusing to put the belt on Hogan. His WWF run hadn't even begun yet.

[Guest Super Pissed Smark]

Hogan had a push then (by AWA standards, anyway), but crazy old Verne wouldn't consumate the deal, and the unending foreplay was driving the fans nuts. Saw that big Bockwinkel-Hogan match with the false title switch on some classics show a half a year ago or so and the crowd was just rabid for Hogan. Amazing heat. I kinda think Hogan made the right decision jumping to Vince...

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Yes, but his push was more traditional, if you know what I mean. He wasn't getting any crazy streaks, retiring any main eventers, given the most impressive entrance in the company or anything wacky like McMahon does to ensure that a guy he wants over WILL get over.

 

If he had been an A-Train Black Hole of Heat or something, his AWA push would have fallen flat on it's face, WWEG would have likely never seen the potential, and nothing would have happened.

[Guest creativename]

But I can't see how anybody can say it's all about the push when Vince keeps trying to push guys who aren't going to get over no matter what he does because they absolutely, positively, irrevocably suck. Nobody will ever love them. I also don't understand this insistence that anyone could have gotten so over in Hogan's spot with Vince.

Did you read any of the posts? There's no sense in arguing against points no one in their right mind would make anyway.

 

Dude, AWA crowds would nearly riot every time Verne Gagne kept refusing to put the belt on Hogan. His WWF run hadn't even begun yet.

 

AWA is hardly uber-level of overness. I'm talking major success here; AWA was, relatively speaking, minor league by that point in time. And there are literally hundreds of wrestlers around the world in dozens of territories who have drawn an incredibly rabid followings in a moderate-sized local region. Junkyard Dog, Mid-South style would certainly compare to AWA Hogan, for instance...but I hardly think he belongs in this discussion. And yes, speaking from a regional standpoint, pretty much all of even the local legends have received tremendous pushes; the vast majority prior to gaining their locally transcendant status.

 

That's the one thing about Hogan--he could have been AWA's Austin. But he was not the WWF's.

[Guest tank_abbott]

I didn't say any guy. I said any big guy.

So Nathan Jones could've taken Wrasslin' National???

 

 

So why didn't Watts' UWF go National with Bubba, One Man Gang, Hacksaw and Dr. Death on top???

 

etc etc???

[Guest tank_abbott]

Hogan didn't save the WWF, Austin did. Millions of fans who didn't give two shits about wrestling didn't start watching because of Hogan; they did do so because of Austin. This is evidence very much in favor of Austin being more beloved than Hogan.

 

Huh? Have you seen the stale act the WWF was promoting at that time before Hogan jumped in and the roster went through a complete overhaul??

 

 

 

AWA is hardly uber-level of overness. I'm talking major success here; AWA was, relatively speaking, minor league by that point in time.

 

 

Thats why the AWA big shows were drawing 25,000+ (I'll look up the actual data if you perfer) Super Sunday with Hogan had 20,000 fans...three years later AWA Rage in a Cage Drew 5,000 fans and Battle By The Bay had 1500 .....

[Guest My Eyebrow is on fire]

I didn't say any guy. I said any big guy.

i don't think giant gonzalez could get over quite as well as hogan

[Guest saturnmark4life]

Hogan had successful runs in both wcw and wwf/e, whereas austin only did in wwf/e. And he brought wrestling into the mainstream in the first place, but the fans never got tired of austin, that's true. And of course he's god. However, who's to say the fans won't turn on austin? If he keeps pissing and complaining, and some new sid like nathan jones (that's just an example) gets over big whilst feuding with him the fans might not want him anymore. He's had his fair share of detractors because of his (wrongful) actions.

[Guest Angle-plex]

I'll say Austin for the same reasons as everyone else. However, with all this Hogan hate, I have one thing to say:

 

Hollywood Hogan (1996, heel) = Awesome

[Guest Bling-Bling Buchanan]

Definitely Austin, fans never tired of him like they did with Hogan and Rock at certain points.