Who is the greatest face of the past 30 years?

January 29, 2003

Definitely Austin, fans never tired of him like they did with Hogan and Rock at certain points.

Hard to argue this at this point. Hogan was on top a decade. Austin was on top maybe 3-4 years. Rock is getting booed for selling out. Hard to say what would have been if he had never left.

TheOriginalOrangeGoblin · January 29, 2003

The main reason I believe Hogan is ahead of Austin is simple. When Hogan left gave so many guys Hogan pushes> More charismatic(Nash), better workers(Bret,Shawn), muscle guys(Luger, Warrior) yet none compared to Hogan. Austin did match Hogan and was up there with him for 4 or 5 years.

But you forget, 20 years after Hogan first became he's STILL getting louder ovations than everyone(including Austin) and was mainly responsible for WMx8 not bombing. So if in 20 years Austin is still huge, then I'll consider him ahead of Hogan.

January 29, 2003

My vote goes to Hogan (go figure), but Austin, Inoki, and Andre run a tight race for 2nd.

January 29, 2003

20 years after Hogan first became he's STILL getting louder ovations than everyone(including Austin) and was mainly responsible for WMx8 not bombing. So if in 20 years Austin is still huge, then I'll consider him ahead of Hogan.

That's what I was getting at, yeah.

January 29, 2003

Hogan didn't have Raw or Smackdown and 12 PPV's a year - so Austins 3/4 years of success is really extended because of the mass-saturation.

However, Austin's act was getting well-tired by SS2000 (I'd say that the Austin/HHH feud help kill part of the WWF - the same guys on top - a crappy feud given tons of time) and the fans would have turned Austin heel by Summerslam (or maybe even KOTR) if the WWF hadn't at WM (which was the reason why they turned him heel - they wanted to get ahead of the market - which was stupid because at that time they still had loyalty to Austin, unlike the situation with the Rock right now.)

January 29, 2003

Hogan didn't have Raw or Smackdown and 12 PPV's a year - so Austins 3/4 years of success is really extended because of the mass-saturation.

I'm arguing both points today, seeing as I find it hard to choose.

The problem with that argument is that because Hogan only had between 1-4 ppv's a year, the crowd saw much less of him and thus didn't get tired of his act so quickly. If he were wrestling 12 ppvs a year and doing raw and smackdown, his act would have gotten stale much quicker. He rarely wrestled on tv, which at the time was Superstars, etc, so on tv/ppv he only wrestled maybe 6 times a year. And remember he rarely lost in the WWF. If he wrestled every month on ppv and every week on Raw and Smackdown you would kinda get bored with it. But with Wrestlemania being once a year, and then things like Royal Rumble, Survivor Series and Summerslam added a few years after that, they had months on end to build up a good storyline and pay it off at the ppv.

TheOriginalOrangeGoblin · January 29, 2003

He wrestled SNME almost every week in the 80's and worked a lot of house shows.

BTW did Austin get his own TV show? That anwers yuor question.

January 29, 2003

Wasn't SNME once a month? and not even that really because I don't even think it was reegular.And other than that..Hogan rarely wrestled on tv.They saved him for the paying crowds.

Another great face was Ricky Morton

January 30, 2003

Ok let's pretend Hogan never came along. He never existed. Vince had this big super hero guy in his mind. One that the fans could rally behind b/c he always won and always told them to do the right thing. You're telling me he couldn't have found some big average worker with the same look as Hogan who had loads of charisma and produce the same results? I think he could've easily.

I still say Austin....

January 30, 2003

Ok let's pretend Hogan never came along. He never existed. Vince had this big super hero guy in his mind. One that the fans could rally behind b/c he always won and always told them to do the right thing. You're telling me he couldn't have found some big average worker with the same look as Hogan who had loads of charisma and produce the same results? I think he could've easily.
I still say Austin....

You keep giving the same argument, but you keep failing to give examples. NAME one wrestler from that era that you think could have had equal success with the same gimmick and push.

January 30, 2003

Ok let's pretend Hogan never came along. He never existed. Vince had this big super hero guy in his mind. One that the fans could rally behind b/c he always won and always told them to do the right thing. You're telling me he couldn't have found some big average worker with the same look as Hogan who had loads of charisma and produce the same results? I think he could've easily.
I still say Austin....

And I still say "Ultimate Warrior," blowing your arguement out of the water.

TheOriginalOrangeGoblin · January 30, 2003

And i'll add to that Lex Luger and Kevin Nash both of whom got the Hogan push after the fact.

January 30, 2003

Umm.....guys you say Warrior and all of them but they came AFTER Hogan. I'm talking about if there never was a Hogan. Yes fans didn't rally behind them because they were seen as cheap Hogan knock-offs. So no your Ultimate Warrior does not blow my argument out of the water. He came after Hogan.

And you want me to name someone? Well let's see.....I didn't watch wrestling in 1985. I was only 1! I started watching around 89-90 when I was about 5 or 6. And you know what? I can't provide an example because I don't know every guy who was training to be a pro-wrestler at the time. Maybe if I knew every single person in the country training then I could've found a big blonde guy with tons of charisma. But yes Vince probably could've gone and found some dude in training and slapped the gimmick on him and given him the push and the fans probably would've taken to him. What Hogan did was not hard. He went out there and played this super-hero babyface. And I'm sure the fans would've taken to it if some other guy that looked relatively like Hogan was doing it. Ask a kid why he liked Hogan....he won't say "Because he's cool." he'll say "Because he never gets beat!"

TheOriginalOrangeGoblin · January 30, 2003

Wasn't SNME once a month? and not even that really because I don't even think it was reegular.And other than that..Hogan rarely wrestled on tv.They saved him for the paying crowds.

Another great face was Ricky Morton

SNME was every week and was prime time saturday Nights as the lead-in to SNL. Beat that.

January 30, 2003

SNME was NOT every week. I can guarantee you that. Hogan didn't wrestle on them regularly until he came back in the summer of 1988, at which point he started wrestling more until the Earthquake injury-angle. He was doing more house shows during this period as well. It is was the peak of his career as far as wrestling is concerned.

January 30, 2003

In it's heyday, SNME was 7-8 times a year, tops. When it aired it replaced SNL at 11:30pm, it never was a lead-in. I don't know where the hell you got the idea it was weekly. And Hogan main evented basically every SNL from the first in 1985, until the Ultimate Warrior took the belt in 1990 and Hogan took some time off (I think that was the EQ injury angle, not 1988? Not sure, memory hazy).

The idea that anyone could have been Hogan I just can't fathom. Hogan wasn't just some schlub Vince pulled off the street. He was selling out arenas for the AWA, he was huge in Japan, he'd already had a good run in the WWF as a heel against Andre, he'd been in Rocky III for crying out loud. Where the hell else were you going to just 'find' a guy with a resume like that? He was a star, all he needed was the national stage and a promoter as smart as Vince to exploit his stardom.

January 30, 2003

Umm.....guys you say Warrior and all of them but they came AFTER Hogan. I'm talking about if there never was a Hogan. Yes fans didn't rally behind them because they were seen as cheap Hogan knock-offs. So no your Ultimate Warrior does not blow my argument out of the water. He came after Hogan.

Even if Hogan wasn't around, would the fans flock to Warrior? His interviews were confusing as hell and his matches were.... Ugh.

Lex Luger was even given the USA #1 gimmick and it still exploded.

I guess if you took a guy and gave him the charisma of Lex (ahahahah) and the workrate of the Ultimate Warrior (bwahahahahaa) you might get something kinda close but....

Excuse me.

hahahahahahahahaha

Anyway, this whole arguement is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if someone out there could do what Hogan did if he didn't exist because he DOES exist and he did do it and thus should be credited with it.

January 30, 2003

I'm saying that if Hogan didn't exist anybody could've been Hogan. Hell if Vince had picked some jobber with a bit of talent, Hogan's look, and charisma out of training camp and stuck him with the Hogan gimmick and made Hogan a jobber we would've had the same deal. I really don't think Hogan was all that unique. However I think Austin is unique.

Look you guys believe what you wanna believe. And I'll believe what I wanna believe.

January 30, 2003

Yes Hogan did do something. But personally I believe that Austin did more. Thus making Austin #1 and Hogan #2.

January 30, 2003

Vince had picked some jobber with a bit of talent, Hogan's look, and charisma out of training camp and stuck him with the Hogan gimmick and made Hogan a jobber we would've had the same deal.

Yes, especially since you've blessed him with everything except Hogan's wrestling skill, which is not much to speak of.

January 30, 2003

Hell I'm sure he would've been bigger if the guy had wrestling skill. Hell Hogan has some skill but the guy chooses not to use it in favor of being lazy and popping the crowd off of goofy mannerisms.

TheOriginalOrangeGoblin · January 30, 2003

Hmm I don't know how I messed up on that. Anyways, if Hogan isn't unique why is Austin?

Look? Bad News Brown beat'em too it.

Cool heel attitude? Kevin Nash & HBK beat him too it.

Great matches in the ME? Bret & Flair beat'em too it.

It's hard to define what makes Austin such a stand out, same as it's hard to define why Hogan stands out. Hogan brings a type of electricity to the ring whereever he goes and that pops the crowd. I stand by my comment ifi n 20 years Austin is still as popular then I'll chaneg my vote.

January 30, 2003

Ok you continue to think what you want and I'll think what I want.

January 30, 2003

How can you think that the "Anyone could have been in Hogan's place" holds water when the EXACT SAME THING applies to Austin? "Bad Ass, Beer Drinking, Anti-Authority with some wild catch phrases" ANYONE could have been him.

Old School, in that point (the PPVs and TV shows a year) i am actually agreeing with you. 1 Year in Austins life was like 3 in Hogans.

January 30, 2003

1. Austin

2. Hogan (VERY close call)

3. Sting

4. Rock

5. Flair (would be higher, but he was better as a heel)

January 30, 2003

Then again, Hogan was never (over)exposed to the point Austin was, wrestling probably three or four times as much as Hogan did, appearing on TV more often, and having to work more pay per view dates which included longer matches and less time in between to actually put together shows.

Not anyone could have stepped in Austin's place. 90% of the Austin memoribilia that sold big had a major amount of his input in them. He wrote at least two thirds of his promos, and I'm sure more. He marketed many of his own catchphrases. Hogan on the other hand was a total product. And I'm not taking anything away from him, but Austin was a guy who really worked hard to get where he was, designed things, and then had just enough luck at two major points in time to push himself over the edge.

January 30, 2003

Biggest babyface is the most obvious argument. Steve Austin runs away with this after Hogan trips right before the finish line. Why? Read on.

First off, I won't take anything away from Hogan. The man did help wrestling get on the map big time. However, this debate isn't who was the most influential wrestler ever, a lot of you guys are missing that. Hogan was a finely polished product of the standard babyface in that time. Sure, there were a lot of faces that time who did the right thing and were rolemodels for children. Same thing can be said for Bret Hart. He was cheered because he was a positive influence on young children. The characters of Hogan and Bret were cut and dry in a time period where the face always won, and never, ever cheated. Austin is the greatest face because he came out of nowhere and pretty much created himself for the fans. Austin's never-say-die badass character redefined the way wrestling characters were viewed. The reason this argument is easy is because Austin was getting the same gigantic pops Hogan was-even selling more merchandise-and his character was supposed to represent the ultimate heel. While Hogan was the best possible product of a babyface in his era, Austin came along and (excluding nWo) singlehandedly redefined the way babyfaces were viewed. Now you don't have to be a nice guy and a rolemodel to get over.

Austin is the best babyface ever because he redefined the term "babyface".

January 30, 2003

That is all.

^_^

January 30, 2003

The idea that Hogan's character could have been played by anyone is kind of silly considering the similarities to the characters of Superstar Graham and Jesse Ventura who never got the same degree of recognition from the fans during their wrestling days. Hell, both of those guys claim that Hogan completely ripped them off (oddly enough he does that a lot more now than he did then), but who is the by far biggest star of the three?

Hogan's act was never McMahon's invention either... the whole thing started in the AWA with the whole character undergoing only minor modifications when he got to the WWF. McMahon was just smart enough to steal the guy from Verne and hand him the ball.

And just another little nod to Hogan, that although he didn't wrestle as often as Austin did during his peak, he was on the actual shows an aweful lot doing interviews and angles almost constantly.

Anyway, my favorite face was Mick Foley anyway...

January 30, 2003

Well, I AM saying that Hogan was the greatest face of the past 30 years.

Yes but Hogan didn't save the WWE from near failure. WWE was on it's last legs and Austin kind of swooped in there like this bad ass Angel of Mercy wearing black tights.

Actually, Vince sunk so much money into the first Wrestlemania, that the WWF would have gone under if the card didn't succeed, so that line of reasoning goes out the window. Hogan was a new commodity and he was over like no one in the history of the sport. The fans came to see him, and he delivered.

You are going to convince me that Hogan is a bigger face overall than Austin. I was there in the hey-day of both and more people knew who Austin was and a lot of people did watch wrestling just for Austin.

The difference, is that in Austin's heyday, wrestling came on 3 times a week. In Hogan's day, it only came on Saturday Mornings. Not as many people watched wrestling, and wrestling had a much smaller audience than it enjoyed in Austin's prime.

The internet was also not around during Hogan's day, but his name still made it out into the mainstream media. Hogan's name and popularity got out there just like Austins, but Hogan didn't have anywhere NEAR the exposure of Austin.

I know a lot of people at my school who always insulted wrestling and then Austin exploded they were all like "Yeah I started watching wrestling. That Austin guy is a badass." but I don't remember anybody going "Yeah I started watching wrestling b/c that guy in Hogan guy is the best!"

Well, I do. I've been watching wrestling since before Hogan became the WWF champion, and Hogan did indeed get people to start watching wrestling.

The fans got tired of Hogan to. They never got tired of Austin. They got tired of Rock. They never got tired of Austin.

Wrong again. Sure, after 5 years, the fans got tired of Hogan. And by 2000, the fans had gotten tired of Austin too. Remember, Austin wasn't headlining the last wrestlemania. Hogan/Rock & HHH/Jericho did. Austin had gotten stale, and had clearly been eclipsed by the Rock.

I didn't say any guy. I said any big guy.

No, you specifically said ANY GUY Here, take a look:

Jan 29 2003, 02:26 AM
Oh and let's not forget that anybody could've been Hogan. I'm serious.

Jan 29 2003, 02:31 AM

And like I said. Anyone could've been Hulk Hogan. But there was only one Flair. And only one Austin.

Jan 29 2003, 02:46 AM

I still say anybody could've been Hogan. Hell I'm not saying they had to have the Hogan name. But anybody could'be been given the same character and gotten over.

And now that we've established that you've contradicted yourself, let's get on with the debate.

I don't know! I didn't watch the AWA. But you could pull any big guy with charisma off the street and run him through a tough enough crash course and he'd wrestle just as well as Hogan.

Hogan's wrestling skill wasn't what made him popular. That was never in dispute.

What I'm saying is that anybody with Hogan's build and charisma could've done the same thing.

And anyone with Flair's skills and chrisma could have done what Flair did. The thing was, how many guys had Flair's skills and charisma? No one. Same with Hogan. You mention Hogan's charisma as if everyone had it. The fact was, only HOGAN had Hogan's charisma, and he used it, and it worked. Just because YOU don't like him, doesn't mean that he wasn't any good. Who else in 1983 had Hogan's build and charisma?

And if ANY big man could have done it, then why was Hogan the only big wrestler in the mid 80s that DID? By your flawed logic, there should have been DOZENS of Hogan clones around. Why didn't Lex Luger eclipse Hogan when he debuted in 1986? What about Steve Williams in Mid-South wrestling? They were both big guys, but they both failed to get over to the degree that Hogan did. If you're answer was that they didn't have Hogan's charisma, then you need to admit that maybe Hogan's charisma wasn't as common as you've been trying to make it out to be. Just being big wasn't enough. If it were, then Lex, Williams, and especially the Ultimate Warrior who Vince DID push, would have gotten over to the same degree that Hogan did.

You're only discounting Hogan because you don't like him. And you're conveniently avoiding backing up any argument that contradicts what you say.

The myth of the Mcmahon Machine...

If Hogan was a result of a push - then why have we only seen *one* other man get as high as he did?

Actually, we've seen two in Austin and the Rock.

But the answer to your question, is that the push only puts you in the forefront of the company. It doesn't make you popular. Once you get out front, it's up to YOU to entertain the crowd. If they like you, then the push continues, and you get a prolonged opportunity to entertain and make yourself (and the company) more popular. Hogan, Austin and the Rock succeeded better than anyone did.

But guys like Ultimate Warrior, Lex Luger and even Rocky Maivia when he was first pushed in 1996 eventually failed (in Rocky's case, the failure came really fast) because although they were pushed to the front of the line, they were unable to keep the fans' interest, and they eventually fell flat.

Vince had picked some jobber with a bit of talent, Hogan's look, and charisma out of training camp and stuck him with the Hogan gimmick and made Hogan a jobber we would've had the same deal.

Prove it. If Hogan's gimmick and look were as common as you say it was, then name some other guys that had the same exact package in 1983.

-Corey

Who is the greatest face of the past 30 years?

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