Fantasy Bookings - version 3242342

[Guest HVilleThugg]

Let's do some fantasy booking here people...cause I need something to check up on during my periodic breaks at work. Who would you like to see fight each other...what kind of match...who should feud?

 

Map out some potential feuds and how you think they should go...who'll go over...what title...

 

And then, lastly...let's take a count/vote about the tag team division. Answer these questions...

 

1) Should we eliminate the tag division?

 

OR

 

2) Allow people to enter two people into the fed under the banner of a tag team to help strengthen the tag division?

 

Da "wow...that's a lot to talk about " H

[Guest 5_moves_of_doom]

1.) No.

 

2.) No.

 

Get some people interested in tagging by pairing some teams together and maybe putting them in a mini-tournament for the #1 Contendership of the Titles. Most likely, 2 or 3 of the teams will stick together. Z/CIA... CIA/Mak... Ejiro/Fugue... X/Thugg... Johnny/Wildchild ("Wild and Dangerous" w00t w00t)... if Tom and Frost lose the belts then Danny/Tom or TNT/Frost again... JD/Bo... so many possibilities...

[Guest HVilleThugg]

The problem with sticking people together is that people don't want to just be stuck together. Almost everyone has expressed their extreme displeasure in random tag matches and the like, so just sticking people together is the last thing CC wants to do to try and revive the tag division. And, obviously, there's little to no interest in that division, and history has shown us that we cannot count on the people here to suddenly have an interest in the tag division, and if by chance, we have some interest, we can't count on it to continue. People don't seem to want to give up their individual titles and individual feuds to team up with someone for 6 months at battle with several other teams for the tag titles. This is why our tag division is crap. If people could enter two wrestlers as a tag team, you get people like Ejiro (or maybe it was another noob) who want to devote time to tag teams, to do so. Also, you have to look at this...

 

- We have a roster of 14-16 people.

- To have a solid tag division, you need at very, very, very least, 3 teams, and the division would be much, much better with 4-5 teams.

- Now, that means that if we keep things the way they are, we need at very least 6 people to devote themselves to that tag division, and in the best cases, 8-12 people. That's nearly our entire roster...

- If we take 6 people away from the roster for the tag division, that leaves under 10 people to fight over heavyweight, ICTV, US, and Hardcore Titles. That's just not enough...

- Then, you just have to look at the fact that people generally want to reach out for personal goals and such, or have personal feuds. If you have a minimum of 2 people per individual title, that's already 8 people from the roster...and if you add that to the 6 people for the tag division, that's already 14 people, and our roster is empty for people doing personal feuds or any of the other titles involveing more than 2 people, which will get real lame, real quick.

- If you allow for people to have an entire team to themselves, you would solve the roster crunch problem with the tag division, while also allowing people to reach their personal goals without having to share it with people. Secondly, people could get tag accollades like Raynor did, and it will mean so much more. Obviously, there would be rules for this so that people won't have both tag members in singles matches on the same night, nor would have they have to put in more effort than those with singles wrestlers. And if people end up wanting to go after a singles career, they could drop one of their tag members, and then jsut go with the other.

 

I think it's a good idea, because we seriously need to either do something about the tag division, or eliminate it. Frost and Tom haven't defended in 2 months, and before them, it's just been so very stagnant. We got rid of highly contested LHW title, but kept the dormant tag titles, and I'm not sure why.

 

Da "anyone else have any ideas?" H

[Guest realitycheck]

Okay, first thing's first...

 

Thugg? Helllloooooooo? There are 20 people in the Clusterfuck, which means that we OBVIOUSLY have more than 14-16 active writers. Add the 20 people in the CF plus the four who aren't in the match and we have, ta-da, 24 active writers.

 

Thusly, it wouldn't be that horrible of a stretch to cut out 6+ and have a 3 or more team tag division. Numbers aren't the problem. The problem are the same problem that have always plauged the tag division.

 

On top of the fact that a lot of people just don't want to give up their singles feuds and title commitments, a lot of people just don't like writing tag matches. I can understand this. Between awkward schedules some people have, to the problems some people have with matching the styles, etc etc etc. Really, there aren't a whole lot of people who really enjoy working with other people to create a tag MATCH, let alone team for the better part of their careers.

 

On the other side of the coin, I don't like the idea of having tag teams be made up of one person. I dunno, maybe because I'm one of the very few who LOVES writing tag matches with other people, and enjoys the whole experience. Personally, if we're considering that option, I'd just prefer to eliminate the titles all together.

 

However... it is my understanding that several people are preparing to create tag teams for the long haul in a little while, so I'd like to see these people at least attempt this and try to rejuvinate the tag division before we do something like dropping the titles altogether or going for the one-man team idea.

 

Also, I've been meaning to pitch the idea of having JLers pair up with a partner and fight as teams to decide the next bump to TBS. So there's always that option as well.

 

-Z

Tossing in $0.02

[Guest Lightning Flik]

um... just little ol' me coming from out in left field but...

 

didn't this problem happen in the SJL? i mean, like the stable/tag belts were retired due to none competition... and frankly in the SJL they were only done up for the RSR faction. up in the SWF, it kinda seems like they were made with a single purpose too...

 

truthfully speaking, the tag belts don't really have any worth to them. they aren't seemingly neccessary to get up in the rankings of the belts to get to a Hardcore Gaming title, or an ICTV title. place the titles somewhere along the totem pole of the belt rankings (meaning you HAVE to go through them to get higher up) and they'd be fine.

 

yes, then have the problem of "creating a tag team that works". frankly all you have to do is make sure that should a team get really good (like DOMINATE) in the tag division is guarenteed bigger and better things (they've still gotta work to keep those guarentees) but at least make the division seem like a stepping stone if you will to more glorious things.

 

yet again, the roster factor comes up once again. with only 16 people, you really can't have a decent tag division. which means suspend the titles till there are enough people to bring it back into light. but when you bring them back into the fix, you bring them back and place them as a mandetory belt that you have to go through to acquire others.

 

that's my advice... probably no good... but still, thought i could help you out.

[Guest realitycheck]

And a followup: One of the reasons we've never had a really strong tag division is because we've always seemed to have several large, 4-7 people stables. The problem with these is that there are often people within the stable who'd like to form a tag team, but can't, because say the leader of the stable and the guy in the stable going for the ICTV are the current tag champs, and thusly, they can't team up and provide opposition because they're gunning for their allies. So, these people just end up floating around in the midcard aimlessly because they can't do anything.

 

Just pointing that out, is all.

 

-Z

[Guest HVilleThugg]

Haven't read your entire post Z, but if you look at those in the CF, how many of them are actually sticking around? JD, X, etc...there's a bunch of them that are just here for the CF. But, I'll concede that we have like 18 and not 4 people...but that still creates a numbers issue...

 

And...I don't understand why people don't like the one-man tag idea. Is there something that I'm not seeing that would create a problem? I mean, cause in my mind, it just seems like a great idea, and even not considering the roster issue, it would be easier to get teams formed because people wouldn't have to go searching for someone who wanted to do it, nor have to deal with schedules and the like...? So, what's the issue?

 

Da "going back to read the post...i had to post this because i would forget" H

[Guest realitycheck]

Well, I know X is already gone again. JD won't be back full-time until mid-February; but I believe Pete is giving it another run. So that's 22, yo.

 

-Z

[Guest HVilleThugg]

^

|

|

 

Read the edit in my post.

 

Da "oopsie" H

[Guest realitycheck]

Eh... I dunno why I really don't like the one man tag team idea. Maybe it's because, when I was bumped, all I wanted to do was tag team with someone, but there weren't any partners available. Hell, I still do, but now I can't really devote the time I'd like to a tag career because of the commitment I've got to Silent. So blah.

 

It's pretty much a personal opinion. I suppose it's because, from the little tag teaming I actually go to do, I enjoyed doing it waaaaay too much with another person. I feel it completely loses the point if you're doing it by yourself.

 

-Z

[Guest Powerplay]

I think we can get a pretty good tag division going. Look at it this way:

 

CIA/Mak: All ready have a tag team title match coming up, and almost definitely going to win it. They don't really have anything going right now and a tag team with these two is great.

 

Ejiro/Fugue/Me: Already in the works, here. I think I may be able to team with Ejiro, even though I hold the Hardcore. But if I can't, Fugue can take my spot and that's team 2.

 

WC/Johnny: Great team in the JL, and I want to some more of Wild and Dangerous action in the WF. It would get them immediately going after a title and into possible storylines.

 

Stryke/Someone: He isn't doing anything right now except being thrown into random matches. Either put him in the Hardcore or US division or tag him with someone.

 

Craven/Xero: They have past history, and neither of them are doing anything right now.

 

Those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head. And I dunno: After thinking about it, if you had 1 person tag teams it would just be a singles belt. I think that tagging really helps people in the sense that "Hey, I only have to write 2,500 instead of 5,000 this time around". I mean, it really can give people a break after writing a 6,000 word match.

[Guest HVilleThugg]

That IS a good point Judge. I do suppose that if we allow people to enter 2 tag members, it defeats the purpose of having a "tag team" belt because it would be just a singles belt. I guess a good part of the challenge with tag teams is adapting and combining styles. I'm still, however, not convinced that the one man tag team isnt' a good idea.

 

Da "glad he at least has something to talk about " H

[Guest Powerplay]

Well, the another advantage of the current system is flexibility in booking. Say you have to build up a feud around the tag team belts, so you decide to put one member from each team in a singles match. If you have two people writing, the booker can place the other half of those teams somewhere else on the card, which wouldn't be possible with a 1 man tag team.

 

Another point is storylines: Having a tag partner betray another is a classic feud with simply isn't possible if one person is running both of them. So it takes away from options. Plus, having two people working together increases interfed communication and adds some flavor to what would just be another gimmicked singles match under the "One man = One Team" system.

[Guest Grand Slam]

Not to get up on my high-horse, but if there were more people who did what I did and took a break from singles success to pursue the tag titles with a partner, the tag division would be great.

 

And for those of you who are starting to feel burnt out, grab a partner and compete in the tag division. It really is easier than writing a full match if you find a great partner. I admit I was lucky. How many other guys (outside Raynor) can claim to winning the titles three times with three different partners (Outcast, Mistress sarah and Edwin)?

 

I don't like the idea of one person running a tag team. Because then why have tag titles at all? Why don't we just bring back the LHW title and add another singles belt? Stick with the way things are for the moment, and let's figure out a way to get more people in the SWF.

[Guest HVilleThugg]

Alright, alright...I'm kind of convinced. Only because I'm a huge fan of the...

 

"Hey we're a great tag team"

 

"Yes we are"

 

POW!!

 

"Too bad I hate your guts you glory hoggin' SOB"

 

HAHAHAHAHA!

 

Da "god, i love that" H

[Guest HVilleThugg]

Shut up Mark!

 

Ooooo! Burn!

 

::starts a flame war with Mark::

 

Da "why? because he makes them fun" H

[Guest Goodear]

Fantasy Booking ... OF JOY~!

 

I would like to see Thugg vs. Frost pay off somewhere down the line. I'm just worried that it might get forgotten as Frost and Magnificent Seven do their thing. Perhaps a heel turn for the wussy formerly known as Thugg could lead to this as he starts taking a whole lot more Flair-type shortcuts. Sort of flipping the whole thing on its head. I also want Frost and Tom to actually defend the tag titles so we can get some of that Angle-Benoit teaming even though they hate each other vibe going.

 

I want to see ELM take a more active part in storylines than he has been. As one of the best match writers in the federation, I think it would be a great help to the fed if he brought the promos a bit more often. I want to know whats going through his mind as he readies for Flesher. I want to know if he hates Tom or is just looking to hang on to the belt. I need a reason to invest in the character. Hell, I want more faces to do this period... its like heel domination on the show sometimes with the exception of HVille who if anything promos too much.

 

I want to see the stipulations sort of drop a little from what we usually see on a random card. There are times when just a match is perfectly acceptable and the blood is not really needed for a match with two people with no issue between them. I think that hurts the feuds that actually build towards something that would actually warrant those matches when they happen all the time for no reason. If people get bored with normal matches, maybe they ought to actually feud with someone.

 

I also get the impression that it takes some people a lot longer to climb the ladder than for others. Danny and Frost should already be at World title contention level by now in my opinion, yet they seem to simmer in the midcard for extended periods. While at the same time, a returnee immediately gets shot up to the level where they left and pretty much push guys who have been writing for the last 6 months underneath them.

 

Anyway, on to the tag issue...

 

I love tag team wrestling. Love it to death. I grew up on steady teams like The Midnight Express, The Rock 'n' Rolls, The Rockers and Demolition... but we're never going to have teams like that under the current system. That's not to say that the teams we've had have been bad or anything... Ced & Thoth and Ced & Mak were personal favorites of mine but they were always more of a superstar alliance like Rey and Edge. I really don't see why these different systems have to be mutually exculsive. If WildChild wants to run a squad by himself and Frost wants to team with TNT again, what is the problem with alowing both of those things to take place? WildChild would get to write a match he would want to without having to coordinate with someone (which would be a chore do to his scheduling issues) and the others would be able to coordinate their efforts if they so chose.

[Guest Goodear]

Also about "the tag titles held by one guy is another singles title" issue... I really, really don't buy into that argument for a couple of reasons. The writing of a tag match is just so fundamentally different from a singles match it is unbelievable. The pacing, the psychology, and the build are just so much different from any sort of singles match that it would provide a much different flow and feel to the cards than even the most whacked out stipulation singles match would.

 

Another thing that the people who seem to be against the one person team theory seem to have in common is that they are very communicative people (if that's even a word). Judge, Frost and Z are almost always available in chat at night if a partner wanted to talk something over with them. All three exhibit this communication even more in their angles as they all build things with other people almost all the time.

 

But other people just aren't as talky and are a lot harder to get messages back and forth to through no fault of their own. But maybe they really would like to write tag matches on regular basis and can't because they can't get even get on the boards everyday.

[Guest Suicide King]

Wow. I get to sound like Stubby.

 

The tag team system of the SWF will not be changed. The whole point is that is is held by the best team, not the best single writer. This makes it unlike any other belt. This system will not change. I have spoken.

[Guest HVilleThugg]

That made me very sad King...

 

 

...you sounded JUST like Stubby. Just like him!

 

Well, at least you gave some miniscule reason, however dictatoresque it may have been.

 

Da "fears the coming of the second Stubby" H

[Guest 5_moves_of_doom]

HITLER!!

 

...Hitler who is booking my Clusterfuck match if it makes it that far...

 

Um... what I meant was:

 

GOD!!

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

As far as the tag division goes, I don't see why we need to have classic WWF style tag teams that only wrestle in tag matches, and are only viewed as tag team wrestlers.

 

Why not just do something similar to All Japan, which had the best system ever. Who says you can't wrestle single and tag matches. Who says a tag team has to be established, by wrestling in meaningless matches. Everyone who is interested in writing tag matches, find a partner. Once a month, we do a tournment in which all the interested teams compete. The winner is the tag champions, until next month when they will have to defend them again in a tournment. Problem solved. Fuck, just let me book the tag division and I'll straighten this situation out.

 

This setting also provides an excellent opportunity to further fueds, without blowing your wad before the PPV. A Very good way to establish alliances, storylines, fueds, the possibilties are endless. My last post on this way back during the Stubby controversy, was ignored. So now I ask, why can't we do this?

 

I also don't see why if sombody wants too, just make up a tag partner. Real partners for some, imaginary for others. Being a complete perfectionist control freak when it comes to building a match, I would actually prefer this. It's not a bad idea.

 

As far as the cliched tag partners turning on each other thing, it only works if the team is established over a long period of time, and is actually good. .

[Guest HVilleThugg]

Danny makes some good points, and now I'm on the side of imaginary partners for some, real partners for others.

 

Da "we should all listen to Danno" H

[Guest WrestlingDeacon]

I don't like the idea of the one man tag system for many of the reasons Z and Judge discussed, nor do I like the mixed system that Ejiro just suggested. I think that could become a scheduling headache itself and a disadvantage to the two men team. What if one guy quits? Can I just keep going with his character? Can I create another random character and throw in there? You also still can't have the singles interaction of 2-1. Both of Wilchild's guys can't fight myself and TNT in the same night. So you stretch that aspect out and possibly make one of us sit out a show when we're looking forward to writing.

 

Flik's idea of making the tag belts something you mandatory have to go through is a horrible idea. We don't have that now with the singles belts. I'm the ICTV champ and I never held the US Title and I never held the World Title in the SJL to get bumped. The surest way to kill something is to force people to do it.

 

I've also heard this bs about "oh, I'm forming a team and we'll have a great tag division in a month" since I've been in the WF. I say set a time limit, maybe two months, and if there hasn't been an improvement in the tag division then get rid of the belts. As I said in my second editorial on the website, if the tag division means so much to you, then prove it to me now.

 

For Ejiro's comment on people rising up the ladder and returnees getting an immediate push, I believe that was a product of Stubby's booking that is clearing away now. I was in the WF for over five months with a great record when Stubby put me in a number one contenders match for the US title. Myself and everyone else was like "what the fuck." He just liked to push who he knew and squashed the n00bs. Kind of like HHH.

[Guest Powerplay]

I named all the tag teams that COULD be made right now, Frost. Those tag teams are ones that make sense AND could easily be put into storylines. But yes, we've heard a lot about "Great Tag team division soon!", but here's to hoping, eh?

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

I've also heard this bs about "oh, I'm forming a team and we'll have a great tag division in a month" since I've been in the WF. I say set a time limit, maybe two months, and if there hasn't been an improvement in the tag division then get rid of the belts. As I said in my second editorial on the website, if the tag division means so much to you, then prove it to me now.

I would gladly prove it, but here's what happened when I tried to get involved in the tag scene. I found it extremely irritating trying to write the climax of match, in which I don't know the build too. But it didn't matter, because the thrown together teams Me and Xero faced, didn't give a shit, and we won all of our matches by no show. I also found it, hurting my singles career.

 

A tournament once a month, would create much needed competition. It also wouldn't hurt people's singles career, which is the number one reason that people don't get involved in the scene. For some reason your entire character has to be consumed in the tag scene. If people can find some reasons not to use the tournamane idea, I'm all ears.

[Guest AnnieEclectic]

I dunno, I think that Danno's points are good, plus using the tag division to help the singles feud and visa versa is great. I'd really really hate to see the tag division go, especially when there's still potential for it to be great.

 

Plus, I always thought the idea of a Mak/Annie team called "East Coast Hardcore" would have rocked...

 

-Annie

[Guest WrestlingDeacon]

The tournament seems like a forced idea to me. The belts are only used once a month when teams who only tag once a month get together to go after them. This also puts a lot of singles matches and feuds on hold while not giving significant time to build and develop real tag feuds and storylines. Even using the tag tourney as a means to continue and enhance singles feuds and characters seems like a disservice to tag team wrestling and the belts.

 

I agree that tag team wrestling is far different from singles wrestling. There are unique spots, building and dynamics that go into tag team wrestling and writing a tag match. But if you make it one guy writing tag matches how is that any different than one guy writing a hardcore match which is different from a straight singles match? You just turn the tag belts into another gimmick singles belt.

[Guest HVilleThugg]

To touch on something that Frost and Ejiro said about noobs having to go through a ladder and returnees coming back to take their previous spots...I don't see a problem with that in some respects. I mean, i don't think returnees who were midcard when they left should be automatically pushed to main event just because they're old and made a big return. I do however believe that if someone was main event, left, and then makes a big return, they should be able to reclaim their spot near the top. If they can still cut it up there, they stay...if not, then they start to filter back down. If you take the WWE as an example...when the Rock returns, he's not going to drop down to the midcard just because other people were around when he wasn't...and it wouldn't make any sense for him to do so. However, if, say, Bull Buchanan came back, he shoudn't be pushed to the main event because he wasn't a big draw when he left, no matter how hyped of a return he has. Just like when Kane returned...he wasn't main event when he left, and he made a hugely hyped return...right back to the upper midcard. I, for one, think that's fair. Obviously, the returning people need to prove they can cut it, and if they can't, they'll fall back down. Look at me...I was a big draw when I left...one of the best in the biz...should I come back and go to the US title level? Hell no. That woudnt' make much sense. Now, that's not to say that i should get title shot after title shot, and I didn't...but mainly because I didn't want to and told Stubby so. However, I'm still in a main event level, and returned in a title match with ELM. We hyped the return big time, and since i was ME when I left, I returned to ME and fought him for the title. So, should I have been sent to ICTV or lower because i was gone? I just think that people who return should be able to regain their spot until they show thet can't cut it there any more.

 

Da "has rather strong feelings on this subject" H

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

The tournament seems like a forced idea to me. The belts are only used once a month when teams who only tag once a month get together to go after them. This also puts a lot of singles matches and feuds on hold while not giving significant time to build and develop real tag feuds and storylines. Even using the tag tourney as a means to continue and enhance singles feuds and characters seems like a disservice to tag team wrestling and the belts.

 

I agree that tag team wrestling is far different from singles wrestling. There are unique spots, building and dynamics that go into tag team wrestling and writing a tag match. But if you make it one guy writing tag matches how is that any different than one guy writing a hardcore match which is different from a straight singles match? You just turn the tag belts into another gimmick singles belt.

So your saying All Japan diserviced Tag Team wrestling, by using them to further singles fueds? Tag fueds will develop as the months go by. And the belts will be used hell of lot more, than they are now. The whole point is not to be tied down, you can have a new partner each month if you like.

 

It won't be forced, because only people who want to do it, will do it. I don't see why a single fueds have to put on a hold for a tag match, it's not like you can't promo, or even face the person in a tag. It's better than wrestling that person over and over again. It's not like wrestling in a meaningless singles match, will further a fued with some one else. Might as well be competing for some belts.