Seperation of Church and State

[Guest RobJohnstone]

You know as I was reading in the other thread, most are against Speration of Church and State. It got me think, how bad is it really? What would be the pros and cons of teaching some parts of the christian religion in tax funded public classroom. Now before I go on let us go over the Ten Commandments. They are something that seams to be a consensus that no on wants in the school system. Let's take a look.

 

1. Thou shalt have no other GOD but me ( I could see how someone not having faith would be against this but I will get to this later.)

2. Thou shalt not make images or likeness to the Lord (More religious than anything else, I do not see a problem, do you?)

3. Thou shall not use the Lord GOD's name in vain (More religious than anything)

4. Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day. (Agin like number 1 but, is it so bad?)

5. Honor thy father and thy mother (Who has a problem with this one? This teaches respect and morals to young children who in this day and age have almosy none of each.)

6. Thou shalt not kill (Who doesn't agree here? That also means unborn babies btw)

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.( Who does not agree here. Hey I bet all you Clinton lovers do)

8. Thou shalt not steal.(Anyone want to disagree here?)

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor (Don't lie or decieve people. ANyone disagree?)

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's. (Anyone?)

 

 

Ok so now let's cover this again. The Ten Commandments in school would be bad because let's see... It teaches kids to not

 

steal,kill,lie,decieve, and to be faithful to their spouse

 

and it teaches kids to honor their parents.

 

I am sorry but how is this bad to be in the schools? With the lack of morals in our society in these times, we need some moral guidance. Even if you choose not to believe in GOD you must agree that religion teaches morals and morals are much needed right now.

 

I would also like to add that Seperatiuon of Church and State was not in the original Constitution.

 

The phrase first appeared in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to a Baptist pastor in Dayton, Connecticut. Atheists almost always omit the last part of the letter that shows Jefferson's intent.

Here is the context of that letter: "The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state." That wall is a one dimensional wall. It keeps government from running the church, but it makes sure that Christian principles will always stay in government.

 

I would also like to add that it is unconstitutional to pay school taxes if their said children go to a religious non-secular school.

 

The tenth amendment to the U.S. Constitution says, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." The interference of the Federal government in the education of children is unconstitutional. I believe if the government was out of the education business (as well as welfare and hundreds of other socialist programs they have gotten into), many other problems would be eliminated and questions like this would be moot.

 

If a group of parents want to get together and hire someone to educate their children in keeping with their beliefs and values, that is fine and constitutional. It is unfair and illegal (constitutionally) to force everyone (via taxes) to pay to have all children taught things contrary to the beliefs and values of their parents.

 

A second question to answer is: If we decide to have a public school system, who should run it? This will further eliminate questions about what is taught. If the local community wants to impart their values to the students, and they are paying the salaries, then their values should be taught.

 

 

So that's my case, discuss.

 

--Rob

[Guest Vern Gagne]

The phrase first appeared in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to a Baptist pastor in Dayton, Connecticut. Atheists almost always omit the last part of the letter that shows Jefferson's intent.

Here is the context of that letter: "The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state." That wall is a one dimensional wall. It keeps government from running the church, but it makes sure that Christian principles will always stay in government.

 

I think it's pretty clear the intentions the founding fathers had when they wrote the constitution and made the seperation of church and state.

[Guest RobJohnstone]

Verne, I think just seperating the government from running religion was intended. BTW GOD is used in every major document this country sues, in the pledge, before congress sessions, in courts. That is why I believe that it was only intended to seperate the gv. from running religion.

 

--Rob

[Guest Vern Gagne]

That's what I meant. If I wasn't more clear sorry.

[Guest RobJohnstone]

Sorry for trying to correct you then verne. Most people be leave that Seperation between Church and State means religion out of everything.

 

--Rob

[Guest Vern Gagne]

It's cool.

[Guest HecateRose]

FYI: The pledge of alligiance did not originally mention God

[Guest RobJohnstone]

I am pretty sure it did. I mean the founding fathers mention god in the declaration of independance, why wouldn;t they include it in the pledge? Can you cite? I think you are wrong.

 

--Rob

[Guest HecateRose]

Here's a site: http://www.usflag.org/the.pledge.of.allegiance.html

 

It says "Under God" was added in 1954

 

*editted: enterred wrong year*

[Guest RobJohnstone]

Oh, good job. Either way though we still say it and it should stay.

 

--Rob

[Guest HecateRose]

I see know problem with leaving it in, but people shouldn't get angry if someone doesn't want to say "Under God." They have every right not to

[Guest Eagan469]

Our public high-school has a bible study group.

 

Now, I was talking with a friend about it the other day and if it was legal or not, and one of the members of the bible study group walked in. We told her what we were talking about, and she went off on us - "IT'S CONSTITUTIONAL!, IT'S IN THE CONSTITUTION".

 

Now, I don't have a problem with the club at all, seeing that it's voluntary and held after school. The thing I don't get is that they advertise it around our school through flyers and PA announcements, and now want their group recognized as an official club in the school yearbook.

 

Once again, I have no problem with it, but I think our school could get in some serious shit with the state if they find out about it, ya know?

[Guest HecateRose]

I had my high school remove flyers for a church sponsored "haunted house" as they called it. It wasn't a halloween thing with ghosts and stuff, it supposidely showed what a "real" abortion was like, and in the end everyone was "saved."

[Guest RobJohnstone]

The state has no business being involved. The kids parents pay school taxes are just putting their dollars to work for them.

 

--Rob

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Why do religious people in general... feel as if they should force religion on people?

 

Okay, so what should the official religion of the country be?

 

After we establish that, who's the real president, the pope or Bush?

 

After we figure that out, what's the punishment for not believing in the official state-wide religion?

 

It's fucking ludicrous.

 

No church and state.

[Guest HecateRose]

I am religious, but I don't force it onto anyone, I believe everyone has the right to their own path

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

I am religious as well, but if our government establishes no difference between church and state, those who don't follow the church will be going against the state.

 

No. Church. And. State.

[Guest RobJohnstone]

The official religion has always been christianity and no dude, the pope is just for catholics. Religion should be taught to teach morals so people do not go around braking the law and killing unborn babies.. Moarals are important, acually more important than most things in this country. Tyler, you should accually do research on this before just barking out loud.

 

--Rob

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Maybe I wasn't being clear, upon reading that again. As a general rule (this doens't apply to everyone, including me), most Christians wish to convert everyone else to Christianity and anyone who isn't Christian is evil, etc. Same thing witth pretty much every religion... including Atheism!

 

STOPPIT.

[Guest HecateRose]

No one should break the law and I'm not going to get into an abortion debate because everyone normally has a strong unchangable stance on it, so there really isn't any point. But you can learn morals without religion, I did.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

The official religion has always been christianity and no dude, the pope is just for catholics. Religion should be taught to teach morals so people do not go around braking the law and killing unborn babies.. Moarals are important, acually more important than most things in this country. Tyler, you should accually do research on this before just barking out loud.

 

--Rob

And we all know that our morals are right and the morals of every other religion are wrong, right?

 

And yes! CHRISTIANITY IS KING!!!!

 

Fuck that. Who's to say there is a God, and who's to say we Christians are the RIGHT religion?

 

Who are WE to say that anyone else's morals are wrong?

 

We're NOBODY.

 

This doesnt' involve research, it involves utter bigotry; bigotry has no place anywhere, so you should shut up yourself, bub.

[Guest Eagan469]

No one should break the law and I'm not going to get into an abortion debate because everyone normally has a strong unchangable stance on it, so there really isn't any point. But you can learn morals without religion, I did.

Amen.

[Guest HecateRose]

Most religions try to convert people, but not all religions do, and not every Christian does (though I have encountered planty who do)

[Guest RobJohnstone]

Well tyler, we have a right of freedom of speech. Teaching morals is a good thing, you have to see this. Religion if you do not believe, could just be a happy medium to teach morals, which is a good thing. We do not want a society without morals.

 

--Rob

[Guest evenflowDDT]

I'm Jewish. Teach me Christian principles and I will fail because I'm not Christian. That's discrimination.

[Guest HecateRose]

You can't use religion to teach morals without thrusting the religion on someone, which in my opinion is wrong.

[Guest RobJohnstone]

The official religion  has always been christianity and no dude, the pope is just for catholics.  Religion should be taught to teach morals so people do not go around braking the law and killing unborn babies..  Moarals are important, acually more important than most things in this country.  Tyler, you should accually do research on this before just barking out loud.

 

--Rob

And we all know that our morals are right and the morals of every other religion are wrong, right?

 

And yes! CHRISTIANITY IS KING!!!!

 

Fuck that. Who's to say there is a God, and who's to say we Christians are the RIGHT religion?

 

Who are WE to say that anyone else's morals are wrong?

 

We're NOBODY.

 

This doesnt' involve research, it involves utter bigotry; bigotry has no place anywhere, so you should shut up yourself, bub.

So your saying that the morals in the 10 commandments are not good morals? That's what you just said right? That my friend is ignorant, you should read the first post again and reflect.

 

--Rob

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

You're incriminating yourself with your own speech.

 

Teaching morals is a good thing, i have to see this. Well, no shit.

 

...but it's not as if our morals are better than any other morals. This is why we have the seperation. Frankly, we have no fucking right to press our views on anyone else. Laws are in place to place 'morals' on people, without making them believe in something that they don't want to believe in.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

I believe in the 10 commandments, yes.

 

Thanks, established. Stop running in circles.

 

Does this mean the 10 commandments are any better than other people's morals?

 

No.

 

End of discussion.

[Guest RobJohnstone]

Obviously with our country being more immoral than ever before ios because morals are not being taught in school. Take a look at the 1950's compared to now. Think about it.

 

--Rob