Guest geniusMoment Report post Posted February 4, 2003 Its too bad HBK and HHH aka God didn't start up a group with Deacon Batista, they could have been called The Holy Terror. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest SP-1 Report post Posted February 4, 2003 It's his whole "Born Again" attitude.. it's taken that old attitude of his and whipped it. I wouldn't say it's "whipped" the old attitude. I just think he hasn't found his footing yet. There is a way to be a Christian and still have that, "bring it" attitude. He just hasn't injected it into his interviews yet. I'm hoping it will come sooner or later. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest COCOPUFFS Report post Posted February 4, 2003 shawn michaels is unmotivated these days or soemthing. he just bores me anymore Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Just call me Dan Report post Posted February 4, 2003 What? I haven't found him very entertaining thus far, but I definitely am eagerly awaiting his match with Jericho. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Aecas Report post Posted February 4, 2003 If Michaels can put jericho over then that would be a good move....however the likleyness of that is small to say the least. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid 2003 Report post Posted February 5, 2003 Man I used to be a huge HBK fan, but even I can tell that he's lost alot of his charisma. I think what he needs to do is, turn heel. HBK hasn't reallly been a face since like 97, and he's like Rock, best at the heel posistion. I think HBK can put Jericho over without having to put him over. A long match where Jericho comes close to winning would get him over. Him winning the match cleanly would just confuse the marks and not make much sense. How can Jericho win a match clean this days anyways? The Walls of Jericho has been made to look like a weak submission, nobody taps to that shit. The only other option is for Jericho to cheat to win, but that does nothing for anybody. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 5, 2003 How about he taps to the Walls putting it over again? They rebuilt the crossface and anklelock back up over the past few months but they can't rebuild the walls? Bullshit. Confuse the marks? Bullshit again. Jericho needs to go over clean. He can't lose to HBK... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NYU 0 Report post Posted February 5, 2003 I guess it's just me, but I still enjoy watching Shawn Michaels at this point. I mean, sure, the man doesn't seem too interesting right now, but it's probably the fact that he hasn't had a match in 2 months, so there's no element of surprise to his character. I enjoyed his interviews and matches with Triple H (yes, yes I did) and I believe that, for the most part, his interviews with Jericho have been pretty damn good too. I think that people on this board do hate Shawn Michaels for his political actions in the back, but you honestly can't say that - at this point - Shawn Michaels is giving some of the worst interviews in WWE. Shall we look at Triple H ? The Undertaker ? Booker T (Damn skippy, hippy ?!?! ) ? Nearly every time, Shawn Michaels does have a point in his interview and, just because he may not have a lot of fire and anger in it, it doesn't mean that they aren't good. From his 4 matches thus far, I think HBK still has it, both match-wise and interview-wise. But I guess I'm just in the minority here... By the way, I find that sig pretty funny too. You're not making light of the Holocaust, and I seriously doubt you consider HHH to be Hitler. It's just meant to be a joke, but some are a little high-strung. Anyway, I found it funny, with just the right amount of offensiveness. Good job.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid 2003 Report post Posted February 5, 2003 How many heels cleanly beat big time faces with a submission move? HBK is not Chris Benoit or Edge, he's a little bit bigger than that. It would work if Jericho beats Test at NWO with the Walls, than gets clean wins leading up to WM so that the finisher is just a little bit credible. Wrestlemania is supposed to be a blowoff to all the feuds. Unless this is going to be a retirement match, than why have him go over cleanly. It's not going to help his credibility, it will make the fans hate him more tho (and heel heat is never a bad thing). Now matter how big of a fucking Jericho mark you may be, him making a legend tap in his no credibility having finisher is not going to happen. Maybe he can make him pass out, or beat him with the Lionsault after a chairshot...but the boat stops there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RugbyDiva Report post Posted February 5, 2003 It's his whole "Born Again" attitude.. it's taken that old attitude of his and whipped it. I wouldn't say it's "whipped" the old attitude. I just think he hasn't found his footing yet. There is a way to be a Christian and still have that, "bring it" attitude. He just hasn't injected it into his interviews yet. I'm hoping it will come sooner or later. I hope it happens sooner rather then later... I mean really, we know he has the ability cuz we've seen it before. I wonder, does he still have it? Or is it 'dried up'? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 6, 2003 That is without a doubt one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. "He's not over so he shouldn't beat a washed up has been like Shawn Michaels!" Listen the move will get over if he makes HBK tap to it. It's not going to confuse any fans. Jericho's going on lately about how he's the greatest ever and if he were to make HBK the guy in he says in promos that "he modeled himself" after(which he didn't, we know from interviews it was Ricky Steamboat) tap out to the Walls then not only would the move have insta-cred but it'd also put Jericho incredibley over as a dangerous heel. You think just like the WWE and that is not a good thing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NYU 0 Report post Posted February 6, 2003 That is without a doubt one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. "He's not over so he shouldn't beat a washed up has been like Shawn Michaels!" Listen the move will get over if he makes HBK tap to it. It's not going to confuse any fans. Jericho's going on lately about how he's the greatest ever and if he were to make HBK the guy in he says in promos that "he modeled himself" after(which he didn't, we know from interviews it was Ricky Steamboat) tap out to the Walls then not only would the move have insta-cred but it'd also put Jericho incredibley over as a dangerous heel. You think just like the WWE and that is not a good thing. You can't have Jericho completely punk out Shawn Michaels at the Royal Rumble, and then beat him clean at WrestleMania. I mean....they tried this same "Let's have everyone beat the legend" thing with Hulk Hogan and it only served to piss the fans off. The way I see it, if Michaels is planning to leave right after, or even a month, after this match, then sure - let Jericho beat him with a Lionsault or something. But if Michaels is staying for a couple of months or a year, you can't just end the match cleanly with a Walls Of Jericho submission hold.... I was at a King of the Ring party, and we all watched Kurt Angle make Hulk Hogan tap out. I could safely tell you that everyone I was hanging with (pretty much marks) didn't think that the Anklelock had instant cred now. It only pissed them off and convinced them that WWE doesn't want Hogan around anymore, which seems like a dumb move to me. And, let's not forget, a month after this submission win, Angle got his ass kicked at Vengeance. Instant cred, my ass. The move will not get over if ONE man taps to it. You can't make guys like Jeff Hardy and Goldust survive the Walls of Jericho and reach the ropes, while having Shawn Michaels just submit ! Like him or not, the man deserves more respect than to be forced to submit in a move that will likely lose credibility by the end of the next month anyway. The way I see it, WWE has booked themselves into a bit of a corner here. HBK got made to look likea bitch at Royal Rumble. If they do it to him at WrestleMania, it's basically the end of his career. He'll look like a complete chump. Yet, if Jericho loses, that serves no purpose either, unless a rematch is made. To say that Michaels should lose to an unover move that couldn't finish off scrubs is, without a doubt, one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid 2003 Report post Posted February 6, 2003 Talk about a lack of intelligence... It would put Jericho over as a dangerous heel? LISTEN, JERICHO IS NOT A DANGEROUS HEEL, he is the whiny, cocky heel. He's not going to pull a fucking 180 degree turn and start acting like HHH from 2000. It's ok for HHH to do it, cause he is the fucking dominant heel, Jericho is not. The time has pretty much past and the WWE has drop the ball on that one. HHH pedigreeing Shawn, whooping his ass, fucking him up, and pinning him clean, works. Jericho hitting him with a chair, low blowing him, having Christian intefere, works. I know your likely a huge fucking Jericho mark, but think about it from all perspectives and not just the "Jericho has to be over in the dangerous heel fashion". Be fucking realistic, that shit is not going to happen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 6, 2003 Umm......Michaels career should've been over 6 years ago. The guy has no business hanging around. Hell he barely wrestles. Have Jericho finish him off at Mania'. It's the only logical thing to do. And rebuild the move in the months leading up. Hell Test can tap at No Way Out. Then he could have other people tap out on RAW. Hell after everyone taps to it and Michaels is in the move for a long amount of time(like Hogan at KOTR) he can tap. I wasn't saying he slaps it on and 2 seconds later HBK is tapping like a bitch. He can leave it on for a good minute before HBK starts tapping. Have them play up HBK's bad back and how it must be killing him to withstand that move. Then the next night he can come out, put over Jericho and RETIRE. Because he has no business hanging around. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid 2003 Report post Posted February 6, 2003 That would be smart if the WWE did something like have Jericho severly inure Shawns back before the match, and than beat him with the Walls of Jericho....but this is the WWE we're talking about. I think what they'll do is, have HBK win at Wrestlemania, and than have Jericho win the blowoff big time at Backlash. Like Olympic Hero said, if Jericho can't make guys like Jeff Hardy or John Cena tap to the Walls, than it's not going to be believable for him just to make one of the greatest wrestlers ever tap. Unlike Hogan or Flair, HBK hasn't lost all of his credibility yet. He's still looked at by the fans as somebody who can win big matches and wrestle damn good. Really, the best thing to do is have HBK win, while putting Jericho over huge. Have him kick out of the Superkick, have it be an even match right to the end where HBK wins, sort of how like Kurt Angle put over Benoit at Royal Rumble. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NYU 0 Report post Posted February 6, 2003 I still think Michaels can wrestle a match, so I guess it's just a matter of personal opinion. I saw nothing wrong in his HHH matches, RVD match, and the Elimination Chamber, but again, I guess it's all opinion. And again, in a time of falling ratings and plummeting interest, pissing off your fanbase isn't going to help. Jericho making Shawn Michaels tap out isn't going to get fans excited to watch Raw tonight or get people to pick up the telephone. "Hey Bill, guess what. That Jericho guy just made HBK tap out." "Ah, who the hell cares ? Got no reason to watch now" Jericho winning completely clean by submission isn't the way to go in this match. It wasn't the right decision in Angle/Hogan and it isn't the right decision now. Like Shanghai Kid said, Jericho will never be over as the dangerous heel. You can't have him and Christian playing pranks one month, and then him kicking Michaels ass in WrestleMania the next. It's unrealistic and just bad business. If Michaels thinks he can go, and the fans want him to wrestle, let the man wrestle ! Otherwise, you're further alienating your fan base and shitting all over a legend's reputation Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 6, 2003 Ok let me be realistic. Jericho is not a cocky arrogant heel. He's a pussy heel. He does not need to be a pussy heel. Pussy heels do not work when they are in his position in the company. He can be cocky and arrogant but not a complete WUSS. Where does it say beating someone clean makes you this dominant badass? Why do you have to cheat to be cocky and arrogant? Hell if anything beating HBK clean will add to his cockiness and arrogance. A win over HBK will do nothing for Jericho if it's negated by Christian, and chair, and cheating. If he has to cheat so much then have him hit HBK in the back with a chair early on before he puts the walls on. There you go he had to cheat to beat a has-been. He should not have to cheat to beat a has-been like HBK. I'm not advocating him totally whipping the shit out of him like HHH. I'm advocating a hard fought back and forth match where HBK is trapped in the middle of the ring and has no place else to go and thus is forced to tap. There is nothing wrong with Jericho winning in this matter. And let me think of this from all perspectives. Ok from the WWE perspective "Yep it's good for Jericho to cheat so much. Because if he didn't he'd get over as a heel. Yep to be a cocky whiny heel you must cheat in everyway possible. Nope not just cheating once but several times and then barely winning. Yep that's what Jericho should do. Actually he should cheat constantly, have HBK break his hold and then pin him in the middle of the ring. Because in one year who will be here and having good matches?" Now from an intelligent fan's perspective "Yep. HBK won't be wrestling in a year and he has to put someone over. Jericho is a cocky heel but needs some cred. They make him look like a pussy to much. How about he beats HBK cleanly with his finisher in the middle of the ring? Then the next night he can gloat like a jackass. Yep that's how they should do it." I like the latter a lot better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 6, 2003 How would this be shitting on the fanbase to have Jericho win? Most people aren't as into HBK as you think. Nobody goes to the shows and watches the show for HBK as evidenced by the sagging ratings when he was champ. The guy is just not a draw. So why would it shit on the fanbase to have him lose to Jericho? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NYU 0 Report post Posted February 6, 2003 Where does it say beating someone clean makes you this dominant badass? Why do you have to cheat to be cocky and arrogant? Hell if anything beating HBK clean will add to his cockiness and arrogance. Is it just me or is this that HHH argument all over again ? To RVD and Bubba Ray, HHH plainly told them that he could beat them and that they'll never be Main Eventers....and then he did.....and then they didn't Main Event. Didn't accomplish shit and only pissed people off. Same concept here. Jericho has been going off on how Michaels is a has-been and how he can kick his ass. What the hell is the point if Jericho goes in there, makes Michaels tap out, and proved that he actually could kick his ass? Makes Michaels look incredibly weak if he does decide to come back. I personally like the HBK squeaks out a win at WrestleMania, Jericho goes paranoid for a month beating the shit out of people on Raw for a month, then beats Michaels at Backlash in another closely-contested match. Makes the 2 guys more even, proves Michaels still has the ability, and proves Jericho can beat the legend. Accomplishes it all. But if Jericho says he can prove HBK's a has-been, and then does it, what the hell is the point ? It's the HHH Effect all over again, minus the big nose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 6, 2003 How is it the HHH effect? HHH isn't the only wrestler in history to win matches after declaring he could you know. Jericho saying he can beat HBK and then actually doing it would make people think something rather than "There goes Jericho again. Oh well someone will kick his ass and shut him up. He's such a pussy." When people think that about one of your main event heels that is not good! That does not draw money. They need to think "Man there goes Jericho again! I can't wait to see someone kick his ass. Come on HBK....." Then people will tune in to see if HBK can shut Jericho up. And when he doesn't they'll think.... "HBK couldn't do it but he tried his best. Jericho's gotten pretty good....it'll take someone good to shut him up. I can't wait." See now people want to see Jericho get what's coming to him. He just beat a legend after being a loud mouth about it all month. Now he's going to be an even bigger loud mouth. Now people will tune in to see him get his ass kicked. It's really that simple. Jericho losing to a has-been that will probably not be wrestling in 6 months is not the way to go AT ALL. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NYU 0 Report post Posted February 6, 2003 If there is no intention of having Michaels retire after this match, then he can not lose cleanly. Period. You can not have Jericho trash him for 2 months, beat him in the center of the ring with a move that couldn't make John Cena tap out, and then expect the fans to think HBK could do anything worthwhile. If you listened, Hogan's support did drop after his match with Kurt Angle, because the fans saw Hogan as being too old for the WWE style if he taps out to the Anklelock. If HBK taps out to the Walls of Jericho, which has not been built up, his credibility is practically shot. I do not think Michaels should be the 1st ( or 2nd if we count Test ) victim in an "ass-kicking" Chris Jericho character. You have Jericho win, the fans will STILL think he's a pussy, like it or not, but now think HBK's a pussy as well. This is the same guy who used ASS CREAM last month and now he's expected to beat one of the top WWE Champs ever ? Give me a friggin break. Michaels shouldn't be used as push fodder. Have Michaels win at Mania. Jericho go on a rampage for a month. Beat Michaels at Backlash. Jericho could look like a more credible threat, instead of just beating HBK at Mania. Meanwhile, HBK can still go on with some sort of respect if he continues to wrestle. But if he gets called a has-been, gets punked out at Royal Rumble, gets told his ass will be kicked on Raw, and then is beaten at WrestleMania, you stepped all over his legacy and pissed off a LOT of fans - including me. -Okay, I'm signin off so don't think that if I don't respond, you won ;-). I'll write back soon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kahran Ramsus Report post Posted February 6, 2003 Michaels is finished, and if he beats Jericho at Wrestlemania, Jericho might as well go to the NWA, because he will never be taken seriously again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 6, 2003 Whoa one of the best champions ever? Michaels is one of the worst champions ever. And why all this preserving of a legacy? He should go out like Foley did. Putting somone over. Everyone should use Foley as a model for retirement. You can still lose in you last match and go out on top. Hell have Jericho beat him at Mania in a retirment match. That'd really put Jericho over. If he could brag about retiring HBK. And if he does lose at Mania and then win at Backlash I can 100% gurantee he'll cheat at Backlash and it'll be an afterthought just like the Flair series was. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Brian Report post Posted February 6, 2003 The onyl way they can pull off a Jericho win properly is by turning him face and turning HBK heel. HBK has nothing to lose, because when he returns after his time off fans will have forgotten. Jericho has everything to gain. Has Jericho really trashed him that badly? Shawn got his revenge at the rumble, and they've sidetracked the feud otherwise. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 6, 2003 Plus so far everytime they've encountered each other save the Rumble, HBK has punked Jericho out completely. Jericho is the new star. HBK is the has been. HBK has to lose to put Jericho over. Hell did you see Foley win at RR and then turn around and job at NWO? Hell no. That's not the way you do things. That helps nobody. Jericho has to beat HBK definatevly. Then all of his bragging will be justified. And believe me it will put him over bigger as a heel because people just cannot stand a cocky arrogant bastard that can back up what he says. See Angle, Kurt. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
