Brock/Angle guaranteed to be ****+?

[Guest Rob Edwards]

Hmm but they could gear the fans up for it in time, if you think back to May 2001 and the way they geared fans up to Benoit and Angles submissions, with the local Indy guys getting hammered in exhibitions, that kind of thing could work here imo, hell it might even pop the fans intrest as to who the best out of the 2 guys is, you could even *ridiculous idea alert* make the 1st fall a shoot and change the rest of the match accordingly

 

I think the streetfight would be an important experiment in finding the right balance between WWE style and pure wrestling because lord knows they need the answer soon

[Guest Brian]

They've retrained the audience though already. If you look at things, Benoit and Angle really weren't ready back then to go for a whole match with just submissions and the crowd was good, but the audiences have been much better as of late with all the submission work since it's more of an evolved thing. I just think it's pushing it to really ask two guys, one with limited experience in a worked mat-work environment and one with none, to go out and do a whole fall and know how to layer things.

 

Having them shoot would be incredibly boring for the audience. Brocks a power guy on the mat in that he'll give you a little time at the start whee everythings moving andt hen he'll break down and start working you over on the mat, and Angle's too technical. It'll end up real boring for the crowd, especially if Brock gets to working over holds and stretches.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I gotta disagree.

 

If they go amateur in the match - the crowd will pop for it. It's been est. since day one with both men that they are amateur wrestlers - the fans will expect it, and if the context is right they will welcome it.

 

They have had Angle/Lesnar WM in their minds since Brock debuted. They have some of the best bookers in the world and each are salivating at the opportunity to make this match an ART. I don't think it will disappoint.

[Guest Brian]

"If they go amateur in the match - the crowd will pop for it. It's been est. since day one with both men that they are amateur wrestlers - the fans will expect it, and if the context is right they will welcome it."

 

Yes, they have, but at the same time the fans aren't expecting a whole fall to be done on the mat with no submissions. I think the latter part hurts more, and the fact that the fans won't be used to something like that because it's really a whole different mindset.

 

"They have had Angle/Lesnar WM in their minds since Brock debuted. They have some of the best bookers in the world and each are salivating at the opportunity to make this match an ART. I don't think it will disappoint."

 

Three falls though? Especially the streetfight, and centering a whole fall around the mat work.

 

The way I look at the match it should really be revolutionary for the WWE. It should be a total deconstruction of the style, geared more towards mat work and wrestling and holds rather than pointless brawling.

 

Instead, you get a match with three falls. The first one, being an amateur match, means no submissions. It also means a lot of plodding around and stretches that the crowd won't be prepped for, and they won't pop for because neither guy can submit. Angle has limited experience, and next to none carying on the mat, which he will need to do. Brock has next to nothing in doing worked mat, and his style of amateur work really clashes with Angle's.

 

The second fall renders the first fall worthless. It's like saying, "Hey, you two are athletes, now hit each other with foreign objects." It takes the mat work out of play, as the psych behind a streetfight is totally different and mat work should play no roll. It's also what the WWE style embodies and what they need to get away from, especially when Angle says in interviews that Brock is one of the few athletes that can put together a special match. And besides, neither guy is a good brawler. It's just filler to them, and itll be filler in a match like this.

 

Third fall, being submission only, is cool in theory. Benoit, Angle, and the SmackDown booking for the last month have done a pretty good job building up submissions. But Brock has all of one submission which he hasn't really used. It takes the other two falls out of play, which can add some cool backdrop when neither can make the pin, but just isn't really good for the crowd. Nearfalls? None. False finishes? None. You get some near submissions, but you can accomplish that with a regular fall like Benoit/Angle from RR2002.

 

Anyways, I just think its best to do one fall. Best athlete takes it. Build it up as a real athletic match. Accomplishments, Olmypic gold medalist vs. NCAA champ, two fastest rising stars, Angle's experience, speed, and brains (and Heyman, the brains behind Brock) vs. Brock's power and strength. They can make Angle look really good, just through some nice promo packages.

 

As for tyhe match, I would have Dean and Benoti helps with booking the early part of the match and have Ace help set-up the middle portion with the nearfalls and false finishes. Basically, five minutes on the mat and maybe some more to start. Short outbursts. First one, Angle busts out the speed and really puts on a technical display almost showing up Brock until he's able to power out. Angle's quick, he goes right back to work anbd starts reaching for holds. Brock has the power but can't run him off, but reeverses to the bearhug. Quick crowd pop spot, Angle reverses with the roll through into thge anklelock, Brock to the ropes. Brock's looking strong, but Angle's got that experience going for him. Angle brings it down again but Brock doesn't want any part of that. North-south position, Angle tries to escape, eventually gets on top. Starts laying in the knees to the head. Really hard. Locks in the front face lock, Brock slowly fights out. Whip, tease to hit the ropes, but Brock gets a snapping Belly to Belly on his neck. Angle work on top of Brock, slaps him across the neck, throws some hard hooks to the neck, and locks in a camel clutch (and the smart thing to do at this point is if they are doing Trips/Steiner and Steiner is going over, have it be by the recliner to build up this first heat spot). Brock fights, gets Angle up over his head (vistory roll). Angle looks like he's losing his balance, Brock tries a throw for an F-5 but Angle just whips out the DDT. Angle just sits up and points to his head, cover. Angle's up, he does a running elbow to the back of the neck. The amazing part at this point is they still haven't even hit the ropes yet. Angle works over the neck, they do a reversal spot where Brock goes for the bearhug but Angle comes around for the rolling germans. He should bridge for a pin to really emphasize the neck work. Brock's starting the comeback at this point and the crowds totally buying it, so Angle works over the neck a little more while Heyman mouths off. Brock makes his comeback, and starts getting going setting up the ribs. Once Brock gets in control, they start hitting the ropes and the crowd at this point is probably wild. Brock wors over the ribs while softening up the injured knee. He gets Angle into the corner but Angle manages a few pin attempts. Brock gets up and tries a whip but Angle reverses it. Angle gets some more momentum and doest he powerbomb into the turnbuckle spot. Angle seizes the opportunity and goes for the moonsault after a cover, choke on the ropes, and a little something to soften up the ribs. earfall, Angle goes back to work on the neck which bridges to Brock's next comeback. At some point, Angle catches wind and goes for the slam but Brock reverses, F-5, Angle kick out. Despite Rock doing it, they should play this up as the first time someone's kicked out of the F-5. Work into the anklelock reversal in the middle of the ring, which draws the nearsubmision and builds to the final few minutes. Down the line, lot of nearfalls, Brock hits the F-5 but has to bring in the SSP to put Angle down. And at some point during the middle of the match Brock needs to F-5 Heyman to get his revenge. They also need to make sure Angle brings it back down to the mat once in a while to bridge the mat work into the mat body of the match since that was where he was having his success Angle looks strong, Brock looks strong, works in all the elements they've been building for, and sets up Angle's eventual turn.

[Guest Choken One]

Wow. Ya just wrote a ***** match. Please email this to Kurt and Brock...

[Guest Brian]

There's a lot to fill in, but if they can pull that off it'll be really good.

[Guest Brian]

I still think my other match, with the heel and face rolls reversed, was better. Just a more layered, smarter worked match, with the Angle underdog and coming off the injury.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Yes, they have, but at the same time the fans aren't expecting a whole fall to be done on the mat with no submissions. I think the latter part hurts more, and the fact that the fans won't be used to something like that because it's really a whole different mindset.

 

Hmm, I think we are on two different streets heading to the same place here. The mat wrestling will be amateur based but blown up to pro wrestling standards. I don't think the fans will fully appreciate the transitions and twists and turns of the two, but they will fuly get the symbolism and story behind it. I am not for the 3 stages of hell crap, or even a 2/3 falls - it's their first match, have it straight up. What I disagreed with was the mat work not working because, while I have nothing good to say about Vince Mcmahon, he sure does have some smart wrestling minds under him who could structure the match very well. I think we pretty much well agree with everything else.

[Guest Choken One]

I think if They give the Book for this match to Patterson and Heyman and a little influence from Anderson, they could script the perfect match here.

 

I am kinda of concerned about our amazingly high expecations of this match...

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

They aren't that high.

[Guest Choken One]

It seems that everyone here is soundly expecting **** or more...

[Guest redneckBEBE]

I am expecting **** as well. Kurt is already a God, and I think Brock is going to surprise a lot his critics (what few critics are left). If Kurt could carry Kane to **** on SmackDown!, then he and Brock should be able to tear the house down at Mania.

[Guest Choken One]

Back it up Nessie...Yes, Kane was Angle's greatest carry of his career but it was by no means ****, I would easily place it at ***1/4.

 

I am optimistic that Brock and Angle will be putting on the **** match we are all expecting here..

[Guest Brian]

I didn't say the matwork couldn't work, in fact it's an integral part of any match they lay out involving the two, but in the three stages sense it just isn't going to fly.

 

Heyman and Patterson aren't actual match guys. They're more around giving out an illusion, somewhat like Raven could booking others and some of his own matches. Malenko and Ace are the team here, and maybe Anderson. But Malenko can lay down most of the transitions to and from the mat work and Ace can put together some nice spots and a good sequence or two.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Patterson does finishes, doesn't he?

[Guest Choken One]

I used Heyman because he understands the history of wrestling, Patterson because he can script a longer match better than most.

 

Anderson would be ideal for the small nuanches that will deservingly go unnoticed by the untrained eye that will silently perfect the match.

 

Ace is scrictly there for the Final 6 minutes of this epic...

 

Melenko could pratice with them and offer suggestions.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Why not just go out and do a twenty minute pro wrestling match? That's what these guys do. They're both good atheletes, and they both can go on the mat in an amateur sense. This isn't amateur wrestling, this is pro wrestling. That fact doesn't need to be established in the match, just let them do their thing, and it will be good. It will get messy if they try to do too much.

[Guest Mystery Eskimo]

There'll be no Brock SSP, because its NEVER GOING TO BE DONE IN THE WWE. Ok?

 

And amateur wrestling would be a colossal mistake. Even more so if it were a shoot as someone foolishly suggested, as Kurt would beat Brock in about a minute and make him look terrible.

[Guest Brian]

I'm just saying it's the perfect place for it and a great way to make Angle look strong.

[Guest Anglesault]

Speaking of the SSP, I thought of a good way to figure that in. Have both of them go all the way. Brock kicks out of the Angle Slam. Angle kicks out of the F5 (Prefeably twice, but it doesn't matter) Brock kicks out of the moonsault, Angle kicks out of the SSP. Brock hits whatever and goes up for the SSP, Angle jumps up and hits the Poplympic Slam (I'm sure they can work it out that brock somehow has is back to Angle for this) Brock kicks out. Angle nails the Olympic Slam and goes for the Sault (Build up the moonsault, Damnit! :) ) Brock crotches him and finishes with a top rope F5.

[Guest Brian]

I'd like the pop-up slam first, since it should really be a tease to see him hit a top rope move. Brock's really never gone to the top and it's a good way to show Angle's experience.

[Guest Anglesault]

Eh, who are we kidding. With this build so far, it will be move for move Ivory/Chyna at WMXVII.

 

I'd like the pop-up slam first, since it should really be a tease to see him hit a top rope move. Brock's really never gone to the top and it's a good way to show Angle's experience.

 

Good point. But Angle MUST kick out of the SSP and the F5 (at least once) agreed?

[Guest Brian]

I don't know about the SSP. I really think that should be the move. Finish, Brock celebrates, shakes Angle's hand post-match with a knocked out Heyman on the outside. It should be like a last resort for Brock, the move he needed to beat Angle.

 

I totally agree on the F-5, maybe even twice. First time, kick out. Second time ropes.

[Guest Anglesault]

I think it will make Angle even bigger if he's able to kick out of such a huge move. They should build it up as EVERY SINGLE THING in both guys movesets were used and didn't work. (Have Angle bust out everything he used to do, like the chickenwing, the ringpost figure four, like the storyline where Austin had to go back to the Ringmaster to try and beat Angle) it will be very Rock/Austin like, except DO NOT have the finish being a chair shot. I have no idea what the finish could be. Maybe Angle going for a superplex and Brock turning it into an F5 nt he way down? (That might look sloppy though)

[Guest Brian]

But the cool thing is that Brock has to break out this awesome new move his first time on the top rope just to win. I agree about how the match should go; every move they can come up with works it's way into the storyline as Angle goes from the neck to the knees trying to hit the submission.

[Guest Anglesault]

But the cool thing is that Brock has to break out this awesome new move his first time on the top rope just to win.

 

 

Or

 

Angle is so good and has so much heart that he can kick out of this awesome move off the top rope from a 300 pounder. I think that since Brock is winning, they should go all out to make it look like Angle is at his level.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

Brock Lesnar must have really gotten good since the last time I watched wrestling. For some reason, I have memories of him having a boring moveset and not being able to sell convincingly.

[Guest Anglesault]

Well, that is very, very true. But I'm convinced he's sucking just to shock everyone when he doesn't suck at Mania.

[Guest Brian]

I think him having to bust out that move is enough. Considering he's never even gone to the top rope, it's the most climatic move that they can bust out and really just leaves an intrigue factor with him getting on the ropes earlier and people not realizing what he's going for. With Angle kicking out of everything and two F-5, he looks super strong and with a show of respect at the end, the crowd will buy it.

 

I'm just thinking about how well they can build this up, focusing on Angle's intelligence and actually using his own guys as fodder to get the advantage on Brock (which actually could lead to the turn as Heyman and Team Angle don't think what they went through was worth it for Angle to lose, thus starting the path to the title again).

 

Aside from the bearhug, I never saw something boring about his moveset.

[Guest Anglesault]

I still think it will be even more amazing if Angle can kick out of Brock's biggest move, but either way is fine.

 

I'm just horrified that this will turn into a lot of BROCK SMASH! with Angle cutting him off with stupid heel antics before Brock hits one F5 and the pin.