NJPW Heavies/AJPW Heavies

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

You know I here everyone rave about the AJ heavies and rightfully so as I have sought out some AJ heavies and they are very good. Then I hear everyone rave about NJ Juniors and rightfully so.

But what I barely hear anyone rave about is AJ Juniors or NJ heavies. Do these organizations just not have good heavies and juniors? Are there styles all that different from there counterpart organization? What are some good NJ heavy matches? I realize I don't have any but I have tons of AJ heavy stuff. And what are some good AJ junior matches?

[Guest wolverine]

AJ heavies at their best are more than 'very good.' You wouldn't be saying this had you actually seen 'tons' of it like you claim. Just saying....

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Ok not tons, it made me feel like a big man to say it!

 

Anyways back on topic. Any good NJ heavies? I've never actually seen an NJ heavy wrestle....except Muta.....and whatever was on the AJ vs. NJ tape. And on the other hand don't believe I've ever seen an AJ Junior match.

[Guest Dangerous A]

If you can, get your hands on the 1991 finals of the G-1 climax. The match (Chono vs Muto) is one of the top 3 NJ heavy matches in the 90's, hands down.

[Guest XdojimeX]

As far as the 90's go NJ heavies got a bad wrap by the Stateside uber-Fanboy since at the time the Jr.'s we're coming of age, the AJ 3 we're pushing the envelope on heavyweight wrestling to new heights (that haven't been touched since), Joshi was on fire and UWF-i was pimping that new fangled shoot-style. That left the traditional, watered down, formulaic Inoki/Choshyu/Fujinami weened "Strong Style" as the red headed step child.

 

But the style and the stars of the era get their share praise. For one its worthy to note that in the early 90's the gap between the AJ 3 and the NJ 3 (Mutoh, Chono, Hashimoto) wasn't all that far apart. The '91 G1 climax final that was mentioned easily stacks up to the Misawa/Kawada match a year later for instance. Throw in a peaking Hiro Hase who was working at Benoit/Liger levels as a supporting player and its pretty damn close. 1993 changed all that though. Kawada and Kobashi went fucking nuts (with Misawa not far behind) while Chono got hobbled with injury, Hashimoto was something of a late bloomer and Mutoh started staring off into space more and more. By 94-95 they we're in completely different leagues thus adding to the second rate stigma.

 

Me, I'm a big fan of the style myself and I don't feel the performers of the era get their just due. Certainly not as dynamic as what AJ was doing on top. But as a companion to ones wrestling fandom I think it's a nice change of pace with it's own nuances to appreciate that seperate itself from the pack. The heavier emphasis on pro-style mat work and credible submissions is a big part of that. As we're the greater (and arguably more charasmatic) variety of workers involved compared to Baba's top heavy promotion. Choshyu in his heyday was a great booker at getting the most out of his roster. Effective supporting cast like the afformentioned Hase, Shiro Koshinaka, Kaz Yamazaki, Takeshi Iizuka, Sasaki (before the juice), cameos by Takada and Tenryu's WAR cru helped round out the solid core of the NJ 3 on top while Fujinami and Choshyu assumed the roles of elder statesmen.

 

Where the NJ heavyweights fell short we're the world beating ***** MOTY classics. They have their contenders but the AJ boys we're too busy rewriting the books on what a MOTY is for them to stand much of a chance to shine (at least among Mighty Dorkville). Still, I'll take high-middle end NJ heavy over most of Michaels work in that era. Hart too sans the Austin/Owen classics.

 

Quick Recommendations :

 

Mutoh vs. Chono 8/91 (G1 Final)

Hase/Sasaki vs. Mutoh/Chono 11/1/91 (IWGP Tag Titles)

Muta vs. Hase 12/14/92 (IWGP Title)

Tenryu vs. Hashimoto 2/26/94 (IWGP Title)

Mutoh vs. Hashimoto 8/15/95 (G1 Final)

Choshyu vs. Hashimoto 8/2/96 (G1)

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

" (at least among Mighty Dorkville). "

 

Is that directed as an insult at me? What the hell did I do? I legitametly wanted to know about the NJ heavy style and what matches are good. I don't see what I did to warrant that comment.

And if it's not directed at me then sorry for my explosion.

[Guest XdojimeX]

"Is that directed as an insult at me? What the hell did I do? I legitametly wanted to know about the NJ heavy style and what matches are good. I don't see what I did to warrant that comment.

And if it's not directed at me then sorry for my explosion. "

 

No no, just poking fun at the American puroresu fan. I was trying to be self-deprecating. Chill out.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

"Is that directed as an insult at me? What the hell did I do? I legitametly wanted to know about the NJ heavy style and what matches are good. I don't see what I did to warrant that comment.

And if it's not directed at me then sorry for my explosion. "

 

No no, just poking fun at the American puroresu fan. I was trying to be self-deprecating. Chill out.

*tisk* *tisk*

 

There you go again, dojime, insulting the fine patrons of this establishment. Lord knows this folder has enough heat as it is, what with Coey having the gusto to call Taue's choke slam "Credible." Shame on you as well.

 

In all seriousness, Damaramu, I would again recomend that you look into the "matches to check out" thread before you create a thread like this, please. XdojimeX posted a lengthy list of worthwhile NJPW matches, most of them from the heavyweights.

 

And seeing as he's by the biggest NJ Junky you're going run into around here, a list of stuff from him is probably the best bet you've got.

 

(I don't think I'd mind it if he cooked up, say, a Top 20 NJPW Heavyweight Matches of the 90's list, though )

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

What about AJ Juniors? I've never seen a match of that style, and never seen one pimped. The only thing I've ever heard anyone really say about it is "I hate that style" I assume this is for a reason, but why?

[Guest wolverine]

Let's not forget about Stan Hansen's role in 1993 All Japan, though. If it wasn't for him, I'm not sure Kobashi's year would've gone down quite as legendary as it has. Sure, he wasn't the athlete that Misawa, Kobashi or Kawada were, but in terms of selling and making everything count, he was right there with the absolute elite in history.

 

And I'm not sure if you were referring to pro wrestling in the worked sense only, but Tamura/Kohsaka not only touched AJ heavyweight stuff, but blew right past it in 30 minutes of the most advanced, fluid work I've ever seen. I think the biggest tragedy among wrestling fans is the hesitation to delve into this style, in particular, the zenith that is RINGS at its best. To those of you, I say this: You've got no freaking clue what you're missing.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

I agree on Wolverine's Hansen comment, I always hated people comparing Bradshaw to Hansen. Greatness is found in the subtle thing wrestlers do, watching Hansen you could see he has a great grasp on how to work. His out of control attitude also added to his performances.

 

I'm moving soon so I won't get started with shoot-style for several months but I did pick up Tabe's history of Vader in UWF-I because I felt being familiar with Vader would help get me into that style. I liked the stuff especially his work with Takada. I've been enjoying matwork more as of late, I know the Vader matches dealt more with strikes but I am interested in RINGS and that style.

[Guest permagrinning]

AJ heavies at their best are more than 'very good.' You wouldn't be saying this had you actually seen 'tons' of it like you claim. Just saying....

and your point is? Just wondering, it seemed kind of a silly point to make.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Well I'm not asking for just matches Ricky. I'm asking for someone to discuss the style and point out the major differences in it and AJ heavy style. And I don't believe they discuss the differences in the matches to check out thread.

[Guest XdojimeX]

"There you go again, dojime, insulting the fine patrons of this establishment."

 

Ya fuckin' geeks.

 

"In all seriousness, Damaramu, I would again recomend that you look into the "matches to check out" thread before you create a thread like this, please."

 

I think it was ok to post. New fans are going to wonder whats the difference between the two major promotions (at least over the last couple decades) as they start collecting...and why nobody talks about those boring ass NJ heavyweights. Gives me a chance to stick up for the Musk & Co a bit.

 

"(I don't think I'd mind it if he cooked up, say, a Top 20 NJPW Heavyweight Matches of the 90's list, though)"

 

That'd be tough, top 5 would probably fall in line but after that things get blurry. Maybe I'll give it a shot.

 

"What about AJ Juniors? I've never seen a match of that style, and never seen one pimped. The only thing I've ever heard anyone really say about it is "I hate that style" I assume this is for a reason, but why?"

 

It's probably cuz they never really had a style. Unless you can call 'Fuchi kicking Kikuchi's ass' a style. Or 'Ogawa by numbers' a style. The division was basically 3 guys needing something to do on the undercard. As a secondary division the All-Asia tag titles got a lot more play on the bottom of the cards and had a lot of hot matches. By 94-95 almost all the focus was on top though.

 

"Let's not forget about Stan Hansen's role in 1993 All Japan"

 

Yeah, I didn't include Jumbo either (who probably put ZenJ over the top in 90-91). Was going for a comparison of peers more or less. But Hansen was integral no doubt. Still I wonder if he didn't have those classics with the trio in the twilight of his career how he'd be looked at today. Famous for carrying tremendous loads to their best matches (Hogan, Andre, Baba) and an excellent worker with tremendous ring presence for many years...but the surefire MOTY's weren't there until '93. Baba's boys we're the ones to give him that.

 

"And I'm not sure if you were referring to pro wrestling in the worked sense only, but Tamura/Kohsaka not only touched AJ heavyweight stuff, but blew right past it in 30 minutes of the most advanced, fluid work I've ever seen."

 

I was referring to pro-style. But you're right RINGS and shoot-style should be recognized more often. The RINGS body of work does seem a bit niche to me though. Tam/Kohsaka is a solid MOTDC. But you're talking 3 or 4 truly great matches in the grand scheme of things. It took the other worldy efforts of Volk Han to even keep them on the map all those years.

 

And I wouldn't say Tam/Kosaka blew right past the best of All Japan at all. They're too different to compare them at that level IMO. Both we're peaks of their respective styles.

[Guest wolverine]

AJ heavies at their best are more than 'very good.'  You wouldn't be saying this had you actually seen 'tons' of it like you claim.  Just saying....

and your point is? Just wondering, it seemed kind of a silly point to make.

My point is you've got to watch a great deal of footage from All Japan--stuff like Jumbo/Tenryu, Jumbo/Misawa, all the 6-mans, the multi-layered complex tags that date back years and years, and all that jazz, to get a full appreciation of the AJ style. Seeing a few matches isn't conducive to that. Why do think people say to get all the backstory to the 6/3/94 Misawa/Kawada before seeing it?

 

I know, so there you go.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

What about AJ Juniors? I've never seen a match of that style, and never seen one pimped. The only thing I've ever heard anyone really say about it is "I hate that style" I assume this is for a reason, but why?

There's some stuff in the 80s from Tiger Mask(Misawa), Dynamite Kid, and what not that's worth a look, but don't have high expectations.

 

Like Xdojimex said, the division was pretty much dead by the 90s. During this period in Japan, the junior division began to be associated with much smaller guys like Lyger over in New Japan or Sasuke in M-Pro. Big juniors like Misawa went ahead and moved up to the heavies to be more credible since Baba of course had big plans for him, leaving All Japan's all ready weak division with medium size guys like Fuchi and Kickuchi who started frequently tagging with the heavies in order to have more to do.

[Guest ConspiracyVictim]

Hey,

Can anyone recommend any UWF to me. Ive seen UWF i and im still stocking up on RINGS but I would like to see some UWF. Also, Nishimura is a favorite of mine, can anyone recommend any of his matches.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

UWF

 

Go to Lynch and get the Complete Box Stage One (will fit on to 2 tapes, 1 9:00hrs - 1 8:00hrs) and go from there. He has the COMPLETE collection on DVD.

 

Tim

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

When did this become a UWF thread?

What I really want to know is what the main difference between an NJ heavy match and an AJ heavy match is.

I mean do they wrestle such totally different styles? Are they on the different end of the spectrum? Or are they closely related?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

There are key differences. For example, NJPW was known for getting over submision holds very well. While AJPW wasn't devoid of credible submisions, they focused more on putting over killer finishers like the Lariat, Power Bomb, ect.

 

However, ike XdojimeX said, Mutoh/Chono G1 Final '91 is very close to an AJPW match in style. The way they link together exchanges and slowly build up the intensity is right out of a Triple Crown match.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Christ.

 

NJPW Heavies SUCK for the most part. There are bright spots, like every promotion has, but it's not worth going out of your way.

 

Get AJPW TV from 1990-1996, then work through AJPW in the 70's and 80's.

 

Get the *essential* NJPW Juniors stuff.

 

Get the UWF, UWF-I, RINGS, etc stuff that is necessary.

 

Worrying about NJPW Heavies and how they wrestle without actually watching is pointless.

 

Tim

[Guest PlatypusFool]

NJPW has always seemed to me to be closer to the whole worked shoot thing than AJPW, which was all about the trad pro wrestling. They don't go fully into worked shoot, obviously, but there certainly seems to be more elements (not necessarily attacking limbs to build to submissions, investing in striking psychology etc.).

 

I'm really loving the NJPW heavys right now, as a lot of you will have noticed. Guys like Nagata, Nishimura, Takayama, Nakanishi, Chono, Barnett, Iizuka, Kakihara and others are working their asses off every night and slowly but surely building back the drawing power of NJPW. Go and watch Takayama vs. Nishimura from August, or Takayama vs. Nagata from May and see some great heavyweight work.

[Guest wolverine]

I'll pass. Can't wait to see my next Jumbo match, though.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Takayama v Nagata from 5/2/02 sucked.

 

NJPW usually bores me to death.

 

Tim

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

"Worrying about NJPW Heavies and how they wrestle without actually watching is pointless."

 

I'm wanting to know what there style is like because a lot of this stuff interests me. I don't have the monetary funds to buy a new puro tape every week so I try to read off of every site so that I can at least know something. And I was going to buy a new Puro tape with my money I have now and I was wanting to know what the NJ heavies are like since I've never seen them and would like to know if I should buy some. I don't see what the big deal of me wondering about them is.

[Guest XdojimeX]

"NJPW Heavies SUCK for the most part. There are bright spots, like every promotion has, but it's not worth going out of your way."

 

Subjectivety and all that. Anyways.

 

NJPW cranked out a lot of excellent TV over the last couple decades worth "going out of your way for". Whatever that means. If you really dig pro-wrestling you're probably going to want to round out your collection on whatever pops you. Not everything is going to be MOTY level but your experience as a fan of a promotion and it's performers is going to be richer. Thats about as essential as it gets for me. Something like Koshinaka vs. Aoyagi is hardly an "essential classic" buts it's an interesting match that entertains the shit out of me. There's hundreds of matches like that in different promotions over the years that have value.

 

And its not like NJ heavyweights doesn't have its share of high-end. 4 of the 5 matches I recommended earlier we're MOTY level .

 

"Worrying about NJPW Heavies and how they wrestle without actually watching is pointless."

 

Unless you happen to be curious beforehand like our friend Damaramu here. Hence the forum for discussion.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

So basically, the AJ Juniors are essentially just midcard-level smaller heavies? Do they have a separate title? It sounds rather pointless, from what you guys are saying.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

It did seem rather pointless to me too, but it's tradition to have a junior devision, so Baba had one. They did have their own belt, but it was passed around quite a lot and I don't believe they ever really built to any big matches. Pretty pointless.

 

Oh and Tim, since you're always asking people to explain why they did or didn't like a match, care to heed that yourself?

[Guest TheGame2705]

AJPW basically focused on their top guys. The juniors like everyone said were thrown in as six man tag material. AJPW has more juniors now than it did, but I think the last thing it needs to worry about is a good junior division.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

So basically, the AJ Juniors are essentially just midcard-level smaller heavies? Do they have a separate title? It sounds rather pointless, from what you guys are saying.

Yeah they had a title, Fuchi held it most of the time, or at least from what I've seen. It was somewhat pointless, but in Japan you have to take into account in how the fans look at Junior Wrestling. It's almost like boxing, where the small guys just aren't credible threats to the big guys. There's no way you could have a Kikuchi vs. Hansen single match, because it would be like Oscare De LaHoya taking on Lennox Lewis or something.