NJPW Heavies/AJPW Heavies

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Will do.

 

I don't proclaim to be a NJPW Heavies expert.

 

But from what I have seen, especially recent work, the Heavyweight work is nothing but plodding and not up to the standards of the top level stuff that I have seen.

 

Nagata is over rated and just plain boring most of the time. The best comparison for Nagata is present day Akiyama. What once may have had promise has NOTHING now.

 

Tim

[Guest wolverine]

I never saw anything in Nagata, but to see what Akiyama has turned into after being such a great young talent in AJ in the mid-90's is just plain sad. Akiyama is the prime example that 'potential' is just that.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Also, I don't want to say that any NJPW Heavyweight match is not great, but after seeing the acclaimed one's, I would rather just focus on AJPW 70's-90's and some other great stuff.

 

For NJPW's current "mat work strentghs", 70's best AJPW gives just the same amount of stuff and better done.

 

Maybe I just don't get the style.

 

Tim

[Guest Jubuki]

Honestly, some of the best "New Japan" style heavyweight matwork was done in All Japan. Kawada's match with Albright from '95 and his Carny match with Kobashi in '97 (not to mention the abortive start of the 6/6/97 TC match with Misawa) were good examples of what NJ *could* have been with the right people motivated at the right time. There's little reason why Hash/Takada in '96 got so little time to succeed, but, if it had been a longer feud, it could have been on par with the AJ matches I mentioned. Both men could do the fast-paced NJ stuff just as well as they did the UWF-i mat stuff, both could bump big if needed, and both had credible finishes from several directions. It could've been another Kawada/Albright in the right light, with Takada playing Kawada and Hash being a more agile, smarter Albright with his kicks in place of Gary's suplexes. But, NJ wasn't full of work like that. Instead, there was Masacripple Chono sidedraining guys like Yamazaki, Choshu hanging on far, far too long aside from his G-1 '96 match with Hash, unmotivated guys like Mutoh, Hase putting himself out to pasture before his time, Hash losing his fire and his place thanks to shitbirds like Ogawa, and a new crop of characters like Nishimura, Nakanishi, Nagata, and Sasaki who didn't know and still don't know how to wrestle on the mat effectively for the most part.

[Guest Black Tiger]

The AJ juniors had some good stuff in the mid 1980's, when Baba would send them to Mexico to learn the Lucha style, and with Dynamite working AJPW tours.

 

AJPW junior divison of the 1990's consited of Ogawa, Fuchi, Kikuchi, and Kentaro Shiga for the most part, as well as whatever gaijan (Scorpio, Mossman) they would bring in. The future NOAH juniors were always used in six man tags.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Honestly, some of the best "New Japan" style heavyweight matwork was done in All Japan. Kawada's match with Albright from '95 and his Carny match with Kobashi in '97 (not to mention the abortive start of the 6/6/97 TC match with Misawa)

I do love the beginning of the 6/6/97 match, probably one of the most exciting and promising openings I've seen. The fans appeared to be buying the Jugi-gatame as a credible submission as well, later in the match they even popped bigger for the Triangle Choke than the Sheer Drop Brainbuster, it appeared that the fans actually thought that Misawa was done for. Too bad the rest of the match is mindless head dropping and pop ups.

[Guest wolverine]

I don't spend too much time thinking about the NJ heavyweights, when I know I can just throw in something like Kawada/Kobashi 4/93, and in a 9 minute clip, watch them blow away everything any heavyweight has ever done in that company's history. Seriously, and I was talking with Tim about this a week or two ago, it is absolutely mind blowing how intense and brutal this match is. We're talking about the two best male workers on the planet literally throwing everything they've got at each other, going a zillion miles an hour (at least compared to those hour long borefests), with the world class selling by Kawada that we all love. This thing is right up there with the Kroffat/Furnas vs. Kobashi/Kikuchi 5/92 classic as best clip ever. Everyone needs to do themselves a favor and get AJPW '93 TV. Now.

[Guest 5_moves_of_doom]

[it's almost like boxing, where the small guys just aren't credible threats to the big guys.  There's no way you could have a Kikuchi vs. Hansen single match, because it would be like Oscare De LaHoya taking on Lennox Lewis or something.

Or like El Luchadore Magnifico taking on Frost.

 

- Taylor "MWAHAHA! Nobody Gets the Reference!!" Thompson

[Guest wolverine]

Should also mention that it's not like that match is even generally considered among the best 20 or 25 AJ matches of the decade, yet those guys were so goddamn talented at that point in their careers that all it took was for Baba to match 'his boys' against each other and 9 times out of 10 you had magic. That company was so special in 1993 because almost everyone had something of a supporting role, unlike in later years, where it was all about the top guys and the rest were relegated to undercard scrub shit. But that's what happens when you raise the bar THAT high, I guess.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Should also mention that it's not like that match is even generally considered among the best 20 or 25 AJ matches of the decade, yet those guys were so goddamn talented at that point in their careers that all it took was for Baba to match 'his boys' against each other and 9 times out of 10 you had magic. That company was so special in 1993 because almost everyone had something of a supporting role, unlike in later years, where it was all about the top guys and the rest were relegated to undercard scrub shit. But that's what happens when you raise the bar THAT high, I guess.

I remember being left in a state of shock the first time I saw 4/93 Kawada vs. Kobashi. The only singles matches between the two I had saw up to that point was the 98 Triple Crown and the two draws. I would later see the later 93 match(date escapes me at the moment), but even it can't compare to 4/93.

 

The match just flies by in a blur of high spots, yet both guys still manage to sell everything appropriately. You also got to love the foreshadowing for 12/93 with Kawada's leg giving out, preventing him from wrapping up the match as quickly as he would have liked to. Even the accidental head BUTT with the Jacknife Powerbomb added to the match, leading to the unforgetable image of Kawada spewing blood out of his nostrils while summoning his power for the Powerbomb.

 

I really would have liked to seen the build of the match, to see how the hell they got the crowd that hot, and how they was able to conserve their energy for a run like that towards the end. Same goes for the 92 tag match with Can Am Connection.

[Guest Ace309]

... These threads are always way too informative for my poor philosophy student brain. Damn that I can't just go out and get every match mentioned here and devote an entire weekend to it.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

Ace309 Posted on Feb 14 2003, 07:20 AM

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... These threads are always way too informative for my poor philosophy student brain. Damn that I can't just go out and get every match mentioned here and devote an entire weekend to it.  

 

 

WTF? You're a fucking e-fedder or whatever the proper term is. I haven't read about anyone here devoting an entire weekend to a match but I'd rather do that then write up a bunch of wrestling fantasies for hours or whatever those of your ilk do.

 

Ace's sarcasm =

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Ace309 Posted on Feb 14 2003, 07:20 AM

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... These threads are always way too informative for my poor philosophy student brain. Damn that I can't just go out and get every match mentioned here and devote an entire weekend to it.  

 

 

WTF? You're a fucking e-fedder or whatever the proper term is. I haven't read about anyone here devoting an entire weekend to a match but I'd rather do that then write up a bunch of wrestling fantasies for hours or whatever those of your ilk do.

 

Ace's sarcasm =

I know your comments where directed towards Ace, but don't diss the efeding, because I would like to devote your attention down to my sig, just below Harley Race and Jumbo.

 

Role Playing sucks, but I find writing wrestling matches on occasion to be quite fun. I'm not going to defend Ace since he can do that on his own, however he is a big puro fan, and I'm sure his comment wasn't aimed at insulting puro fans.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

QUOTE  

Ace309 Posted on Feb 14 2003, 07:20 AM

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... These threads are always way too informative for my poor philosophy student brain. Damn that I can't just go out and get every match mentioned here and devote an entire weekend to it.  

 

 

 

WTF? You're a fucking e-fedder or whatever the proper term is. I haven't read about anyone here devoting an entire weekend to a match but I'd rather do that then write up a bunch of wrestling fantasies for hours or whatever those of your ilk do.

 

Ace's sarcasm =  

 

I know your comments where directed towards Ace, but don't diss the efeding, because I would like to devote your attention down to my sig, just below Harley Race and Jumbo.

 

Role Playing sucks, but I find writing wrestling matches on occasion to be quite fun. I'm not going to defend Ace since he can do that on his own, however he is a big puro fan, and I'm sure his comment wasn't aimed at insulting puro fans.

 

 

I have nothing against e-feds or e-fedders, its just not a hobby of mine. I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy which I interpreted by Ace who came off as if he was putting down those who anaylyze a match and take alot away from it. If one is going to invest time in a e-fed then they have no right to put down someone investing time in a match.

[Guest XdojimeX]

"I don't spend too much time thinking about the NJ heavyweights, when I know I can just throw in something like Kawada/Kobashi 4/93, and in a 9 minute clip, watch them blow away everything any heavyweight has ever done in that company's history."

 

This is kind of the stigma I was talking about earlier about this era. I'm not trying to be Shin-Nihon evangelist here or anything , I realize it ain't a lot of peoples cup o' tea...and hell I'm an AJ fanboy at heart. But take that Kawada/Kobash match for example. Something nifty like Hash vs. Hase a year later isn't in their league, but its a damn fine match that stands up on its own. It's not like its trying to be Kawada/Kobash move for move and coming off as inferior because of it, they're very different matches. These guys we're obviously working at different levels but they still have their merit as individual performers. NJ heavy's had some very good to excellent workers with a quality body of work to show for. They just happend to come around at a time when their peers raised the bar to immense heights. And the glare has been a bit blinding in retrospect. That's all I'm saying.

 

Speaking on the point of raising the bar so high, I think we can all agree it had it's share of adverse effects as they enterted the middle of the decade and the roster became more and more imblanced. That's another thing I'd put in NJ's favor at the time, since their was more role players and parity involved on their roster it gave them more room to breath. Both in the wrestling and booking sense.

[Guest Ace309]

... no, no, I was serious.

 

I'm actually very interested in seeing a lot of the stuff. I actually posted that because of Coffin Surfer's post directly above mine. I'm still wet behind the ears as far as understanding most of this, but I try to watch as much as I can. I'd never heard of the matches that CS mentioned, and, well, yeah. I'm actually interested in seeing them.

 

 

EDIT: My original post was made prior to caffeine ingestion, just by way of explanation.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

Sorry, I as under the impression it was sarcasm and that it was one of those "get a life, you take wrestling too seriously posts".

 

 

I am another who can't get into the NJ heavyeights, I do admit to having just little experience but from the stuff I've see(some of it acclaimed) I haven't been impressed enough to seek out more. Then again I hate Muta and after being thoroughly underwhelmed by some of his early-mid 90's work I may not have given NJ a fair chance.

 

Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi raised the bar about as far as I ever see it going. It was one of those situations where not only a great wrestler come along but 3 legends, and a few other that had a period of greatness who produced classic after classic. They inherited a great style and perfected it i the process taking wrestling to a new level. Because they faced each other almost exclusively they got the opportunity to build from match to match but were talented enough to maintain growth and creativity until the end of the 90's where they and the style deteriorated. Wrestling will never reach that level again. It's just not the 90's NJ heavyweights that will never measure up but it's all puroresu that has yet to come that will never measure up. I can look forward to great wrestlers and up-cycles in the future but it'll all pale in comparision because the best is already gone.

 

Joshi puroresu also has the same problem, the golden age of interpromotional stuff will never be eclipsed. There will never be as many great wrestlers establishing themselves and hitting their peak at around the same time. Matchups that were hyped lived up to expectations, great wrestlers with potential lived up to and surpassed it, the stars alligned. I'm finally getting caught up on the newer stuff and it lacks any sort of magic compared to what was taking place 10 years ago, the few that have greatness can't display it like those in the early-mid 90's. In GAEA the great young wrestlers who are hitting their peak are made to look inferior to those who's peak has long passed so they end up with no credibility. The talent is spread out so everything becomes dilluted, a series of matches between Nakanishi Takahashi against Satomura, Nagashima, etc., may never happen when they're peaking let alone having over a dozen talented, peaking wrestlers facing each other in great matches over and over.

[Guest Ace309]

Nah, if I wanted to tell you to get a life and stop taking it too seriously, there'd be no point. It's been said, generally by people who don't bother to try to understand what they're watching.

 

As far as NJPW heavies as opposed to AJPW, I don't ahve anywhere near the experience to fairly compare them. I assume Nagata's recent work isn't representative, and so the most representative work I've seen in show format would be Final Dome '99 (which is actually the only full show I own on tape). I was thoroughly unimpressed with Goto/Tenzan, despite liking Tenzan a lot once I got to see more of him. In fact, the entire end of the card was pretty terrible.

 

The juniors, otoh, kept my interest, and despite losing a lot on subsequent viewings, the matches still held up as watchable, if a little masturbatory at times (and here I'm thinking of the rampant no-selling by the Bitchmaster and his bastard child).

[Guest wolverine]

I have no problem with your argument regarding the the Golden Age of Joshi compared to today, as long as the time period you're referring to is circa 1992-1994. Because nearly all of the 'hyped' matches from 1995 failed to live up to my expectations, save for two (6/95 Aja/Toyota & 8/95 Inoues vs. Toyota/Hasegawa). Many of the other ones exposed Manami Toyota's weaknesses as a performer in high profile situations (the usual selling and goofiness issues that have been discussed in the past). Personally, I'd take the best ARSION stuff from 1999 and the best AJW stuff from 2000-2001 over most of Toyota's 1995 work in a heartbeat.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

'92 - '94 sounds right, I'm still collecting full cards from that era since I started with comps with the "must-have" matches and was under the impression that the undercard matches weren't worth getting. Since then I've realized I was willing to invest more on joshi than I previously thought I would. It's nice to see rewatch the classics after I've went back and watched how those matches were built to and how the wrestlers involved in those matches developed from good wrestlers with potential to great wrestlers who hit their stride as performers. I still love Toyota but after watching the progression of their roles, Kong and Hokuto have both overtaken her as my favorites. I was always willing to look past Toyota's flaws as a complete wrestler because her style is so entertaing but after a while I started appreciating the things Kong and Hokuto have done more.

 

BTW, I was getting some AJ VQ upgrades from Lynch and had 30 minutes to kill so I finally got Ito/Nakanishi 7/8/01 which I will watch before rewatching the 9/16 match because although I liked it alot it didn't meet my expectations the first time around. I've also watched more AJW since then so I'm more familiar with both Ito and Momo which will also help.

[Guest Evil Ash]

Question: Is the Kawada/Kobashi match in question from the Champions Carnival that year?

[Guest wolverine]

Yes it is.

[Guest Evil Ash]

I figured as much. Have that one from Tabe, I think.

 

Anything those guys were doing back then was pretty fantastic. There was actually so much good stuff it almost blended together (but maybe I'm just an ignoramus). A match like that would be a big one in any other fed, but at least when I originally watched it it just seemed like more greatness from the CC.

 

All Japan from 93 is just one of those few things that actually is all it's cracked up to be. Even the foreign talent rocked hard.

[Guest benoitrulz4life]

Someone mentioned a top twenty list earlier, so I ripped this from DVDR.

 

1. Keiji Mutoh vs. Masahiro Chono (G-1 '91 - Finals) 8/11/91

 

2. Hiroshi Hase/Kensuke Sasaki vs. Steiner Brothers ("Starrcade '91" - IWGP Tag Titles) 3/21/91

 

3. Shinya Hashimoto vs. Genichiro Tenryu (G-1 '98 - Quarters) 8/1/98

 

4. Vader vs. Antonio Inoki - 1/4/96

 

5. Keiji Mutoh/Masa Chono vs. Hiroshi Hase/Kensuke Sasaki (IWGP Tag Titles) 11/1/90

 

6. Hiroshi Hase vs. Great Muta - 12/14/92

 

7. Big Van Vader vs. Stan Hansen ("Super Fight" IWGP Title) 2/10/90

 

8. Keiji Mutoh vs. Masahiro Chono ("Fantastic Story" NWA Title vs. IWGP Title) 1/4/93

 

9. Keiji Mutoh vs. Shinya Hashimoto (G-1 '95 - Finals) 8/15/95

 

10. Bam Bam Bigelow/Vader vs. Hiroshi Hase/Keiji Mutoh (IWGP Tag Titles) 4/92

 

11. Hiroshi Hase vs. Shinya Hashimoto (IWGP Title) 12/11/94

 

12. Shinya Hashimoto vs. Nobuhiko Takada (IWGP Title) 4/29/96

 

13. Hiroshi Hase/Keiji Mutoh vs. Steiner Brothers ("Battle Seven" IWGP Tag Titles) 1/4/95

 

14. Naoya Ogawa vs. Shinya Hashimoto - 1/4/99

 

15. Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Ric Flair ("Starrcade '91" NWA Title) 3/21/91

 

16. Hiroshi Hase/Keiji Mutoh vs. Steiner Brothers - 7/8/94

 

17. Masahiro Chono vs. Rick Rude (G-1 '92 - Finals, NWA Title) 8/22/92

 

18. Great Muta vs. Hakushi - 4/29/96

 

19. Keiji Mutoh vs. Shiro Koshinaka - 12/95

 

20. Tenryu vs. Shinya Hashimoto - 2/17/94

 

Boy, the cupboard sure gets bare towards the end, doesn't it? By the way, DVDR's Best Matches of the 90's list is superb if you're looking for the best.

 

Copule that with Meltzer's WON Best of the '90's list, Jeff Bowdren's Best of the Eighties list, and otherarena.com's awards archive, and you've got the definitive list of great matches.

 

You can get a good idea of what was/is good by looking extensively at these lists, just like I have. Don't expect to have much free time, though:)

[Guest wolverine]

In case you weren't aware, there's already a pinned thread here with lists/match recommendations.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

DragonFlyKid, that post about how the peak has been reached is one of the best things I've read on this board in some time.

 

You are certainly correct, but as a positive person by nature, I prefer to focus on XdojimeX's argument that although the peak was reached by AJPW in 1990 - 1996, and in Joshi 1992 - 1994, there is still great worth in other wrestling. I like to look at wrestling like the world of painting. There are some paintings that do it all, they have good composition, pleasing colours, a great level of realism, lots of imagination, and all sorts of other things. These I'd suggest were the AJPW classic matches of the painting world. But there are some paintings that get one of the elements so very correct that they have worth in themselves. Some paintings will be very realistic, but possess none of the other qualities, and by the same token, some paintings will be very well composed, and some will have a really interesting choice of colours, etc. In wrestling, there are things like selling, pacing, and high spots that are still being done well, and interestingly, in promotions today, and in different promotions at different time periods than 1990 - 1996 AJPW and 1992 - 1994 joshi, which is why I choose not to only concentrate my watching on those periods.