Interview w/ROH booker Gabe Sapolsky

[Guest ShooterJay]

This interview was posted on Meltzer's site today- it's obviously not done by the WON crew, it's from some other two-bit columnist (you can tell because he throws some inane commentary in there between his questions) but it's still a good read, here it is:

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Welcome back to All In a Days Workrate. This edition, yet another before ‘Journey Into MMA, Issue 3’ we will get to sit down and have a talk with Ring of Honor head booker, Gabe Sapolsky.

 

Recently I had the opportunity to interview Gabe Sapolsky and talk about many things. From his own background with ECW, to ROH, to issues concerning the Code of Honor, to some of the people behind the scenes, to the conflicts (not Jeff Hardy, that would be confliction… said about 25 times in 4 minutes) with local promotions, and much more.

 

The best part is, in the pre-interview I asked, “Is there anything off limits? Any issues I should avoid?”, and much to my delight he replied, “Ask anything you want.” After all, when you work with a promotion like Ring of Honor- there is nothing to hide.

 

Justin T: For this 61st edition of All In a Days Workrate, I have the privilege of interviewing Gabe Sapolsky from Ring of Honor. How are you doing today, Gabe?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Good, thanks.

 

Justin T: For people that don't know you started out in ECW. How did you happen to get your foot in the door with them?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: I wrote ECW owner Tod Gordon a letter asking if I could write a newsletter for them. It was before anyone really knew what ECW was and they needed people so Tod gave me a chance and I just grew with the company from there.

 

Justin T: Within ECW how did you guy from a guy just doing a newsletter/fanzine to doing every odd job there was? They must have taken to you.

 

Gabe Sapolsky: I was just in the right place at the right time and I tried to make the most of every opportunity they gave to me.

 

Justin T: When you went to Temple for journalism, as I've read you did, had you pro wrestling in mind as what you wanted to do something with? Or was it just a hobby on the side at that point?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: I never dreamed I would be able to make a living in wrestling. It was really just a hobby and a way to make a little, and I mean a little, extra cash while at school.

 

Justin T: And from there you got on with RF Video, can you clarify for people how Feinstein knew of your work and wanted to hire you?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: We both went to Temple and used to hang out between classes with Doug Gentry, who was RF Video's first employee, because we were both wrestling fans. He and Doug would work the RF Video table at the shows and they needed someone to fan cam so that's what I did with RF Video while I was still working for ECW. Then after ECW I needed a new job and Rob hired me.

 

Justin T: Moving on in time, you and Rob seem to be taking it slowly with ROH. Your stated goal is to get 450 diehard fans a month to the shows. Do you guys set long-term goals? Or do you go one step at a time?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: One step at a time.

 

Justin T: What are your attendance goals for other areas such as Boston and NYC? Are they expected be as high as the hometown attendance? Or is that something to slowly work up to?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: We hope for around 500 people at all our shows no matter where they are.

 

Justin T: I've heard it said you guys eventually wanted to run two shows a month. How far is that from happening?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Well we have already run two a shows a month a few times and our goal right now is to do two shows a month and we have that set for March and April so hopefully we'll be able to keep that up.

 

Justin T: You do the booking for this promotion in the sense, from what I gathered, that you lay out the raw ideas and see what makes it through the process and what doesn't. How much do the fans determine the average angle? I mean, are you guys always fine tuning angles or do you just work out a premise and run it no

matter if it's received well or not?

 

Such as... Say the WWE with necrophilia for example. The fans hated it, yet they ran it anyways regardless of that. So do stories change according to what is/isn't received well... or are they pretty much set in stone?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: You can never set anything in stone just for reasons like Japan tours coming up or injuries and stuff. You always have to be able to go with the flow while still sticking to your game plan.

 

Justin T: Who &/or what are your influences creatively as a booker? Dillon? Rhodes? Watts? Heyman? Old Memphis?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Well, first and foremost I learned almost everything from Paul Heyman. As far as older stuff that I used to watch and enjoy I would say all the 80s NWA Crockett stuff, All Japan (Pro Wrestling) in the early 90s and of course ECW.

 

Justin T: Will you bring in big name talent that can't commit to pop attendance? Or will you only work with the people that can help you guys grow longer term & can commit to X amount of dates?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Nope, we will work with anyone as long as it makes business sense. We have Raven coming in and he has made no commitment to us, but when you see what we do with him it'll make sense. It could last one show or ten shows or ten years; we'll just roll with the punches.

 

Justin T: How hard does it make it for you guys that the WWE, can come in and steal anyone they want from you like they did with a tremendous talent like Leonardo Spanky so he could streak on a taped show? There are only so many guys to work with and succeed with. WCW certainly injured the previous upstart promotion you were in with talent stealing.

 

Gabe Sapolsky: As long as everyone gives me one show to finish up with I have no complaints when talent leave. I love to see the guys make a living and there is so much talent out there that there are guys just hungry to prove themselves who can make an impact. Spanky left and that gave us a spot to push Paul London and that turned out to

be a huge success. Rotating talent is actually a good thing because it helps keep the product fresh.

 

Justin T: That's a good point. There are rumors now, and it could be completely off, it is just a net rumor, that XPW is offering money for workers to no show their competition in Philly, which obviously includes ROH. Is this actually true & if so, what are your thoughts on this?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Yes it is true and it is the lowest tactic of them all because you are trying to screw the fans by doing something like that. When someone pays their money to see a show with advertised names on it, they are paying to see those names and if those guys aren't there you are just ripping the people off. Sure, things come up so talent can't show up sometimes, but to pay guys not for their talent, but to no show you is so wrong. We had our problems with CZW and 3PW, but no one sunk as low as to try to screw the fans of the various promotions.

 

Justin T: Everything involving XPW sickens me and about 90% of the people I know. You mentioned has also had conflicts with 3PW and CZW, or at least had earlier last year. How do your relationships with those groups stand today? Are things mended against XPW or...?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: We have a great relationship with CZW now. We tried to mend the fence with 3PW, but they don't want to. Hey 3PW, the offer is still there and we are willing to put everything behind us.

 

Justin T: For people who don't know, 3PW is the promotion ran by the Blue Meanie. Lets move on to the Code of Honor. Something I love personally. The Code of Honor ("CoH" from this point on) didn't exist at first, but the spirit of it was obviously there. What inspired the actual doctrine itself?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: We just wanted to make it clear that we weren't going to have outside interference or ref bumps or any of that crap while at the same time we set up these rules that we could use in storylines and angles.

 

Justin T: Can the CoH possibly stand the test of time? Or is it too self-inclusive?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: It can stand the test of time.

 

Justin T: Do some wrestlers give you attitude for having to job completely cleanly due to the CoH? Or are you guys lucky enough to not have to deal with a lot of that type of thing?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: No one has ever given me attitude about doing a job, but Mike Modest and that's cause he comes from a school that preaches the importance of winning and losing, even though I completely disagree with it. No one has ever had a problem doing a job because they understand why they are doing it and where things are going for them.

 

Justin T: Why the grief from Modest? Was winning/losing really that important to him? Or was it *who* he had to job to or perhaps the circumstances?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: I don't know what he was thinking. I never asked him to do a job, it just came up in a conversation we had and I ended it right there and haven't spoke to him since.

 

Justin T: That's interesting- he’s not the guy I would expect such problems from. Back to the Code of Honor, do you think workers that rely mostly on charisma but may not be as talented from the work perspective would be harmed by the CoH which promotes athletic prowess and ability? Or does it help them by giving them a focal point to talk about. For instance, Sonny Siaki, ultra-charismatic but just an okay worker- he put on a pretty low grade match considering what ROH usually produces, is that something we should expect?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Everyone fills certain roles on the card. It’s not the role of someone like Sonny Siaki or the Christopher Street Connection to have the best match on a show. A good show has a lot of variety of it and these kinds of acts give you that variety while still keeping to the mission of ROH. Siaki was in a popcorn match against Omori. It was meant to give the fans a recognizable face for Omori to display his skills against and it was perfect for that spot on the card and a decent match.

 

Justin T: Out of personal curiosity, why didn't CoH Rule #3 (no interference) negate the Lo Ki/Xavier title switch from a storyline perspective? Daniels was a clear distraction to Lo Ki.

 

Gabe Sapolsky: He might of been a distraction, but he never touched Low Ki and thus never interfered. We were very careful about that.

 

Justin T: Ah, okay, he was more just a watcher. How long until WWE has a Code of Honor? They already took the Tale of the Tape from TNA.

 

Gabe Sapolsky: (laughs) Yeah, they have a Code of Honor. Rule #1 is your top talent has to have sex with corpses.

 

Justin T: Ha, and can only BE and STAY the top talent if banging a family member.

 

Gabe Sapolsky: (laughs)

 

Justin T: Or a hoss. Maybe they'll have a Code of Hosses. Ha, anyways, you guys signed a working agreement with Rudy Boy Gonzalez's (formerly Shawn Michaels') TWA. Personally I feel they graduate the workers with most potential since the Hart Family school did in the 1980s. Do you feel the same? Or that they still have a way to go to top or be included with a group that included, Jericho, Benoit, Adams, Owen, Storm, etc.?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Rudy Boy has produced such an incredible group of athletes. They are the next generation of Jericho, Benoit, etc....Five years from now Spanky, Bryan Danielson, Michael Shane and the rest will be in those spots. Everyone who comes from Rudy's school is well trained both in the ring and locker room. I can't say enough good things about him.

 

Justin T: Nor can I, that school is amazing to me, Dragon in particular just blows my mind... and he's only 20, wow. Back to the ROH product specifically, you guys just had a 1-year anniversary show. How do you feel about the first year? Was it up to your expectations?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: It surpassed my wildest dreams thanks to the incredible talent and the performances they put on in the ring. I feel we made three years worth of growth in just the 12 shows we had in 2002.

 

Justin T: What is your favorite ROH angle of the past year?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: I really can't name just one. There were so many and I hate putting lists together because I'm bound to forget something or someone and I don't want to do that.

 

Justin T: Fair enough. On the flip side; is there anything you'll make sure you never do or let happen again after your first year in the hot seat?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: That's a good question. You can never say never- but I don't think ICP (Insane Clown Posse) will ever be back.

 

Justin T: More problematic talent?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: No, they were great to deal with, but don't really fit in with what ROH is doing and the fans let us know about it.

 

Justin T: Right. I read a story about, and I'm paraphrasing, how someone left a note on Paul London's mini-van saying they were all going to kick Michael Shane's ass for screwing him over. Are you trying to kayfabe fans again? Or is it more so presented in a way that it's inevitable that some people will bite?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: We just try to make everything as real as possible and sometimes cross that line between work/shoot. You can't kayfabe fans now. They are too smart and just get insulted. The ways of the old days are over where you kayfabe the fans. We just like to blur the line between fantasy and reality.

 

Justin T: Will it ever go as far as some of the 'worked shoot' fights from Japan?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Probably not

 

Justin T: So far you've had The Far East Connection and especially noteworthy is Shinjiro Ohtani. I think puroresu talent could get over in ROH more than any other North American promotion. Will you take advantage of that and how often will you bring in puro workers?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Oh yeah, of course. We will bring all kinds of different talent to ROH from Abdullah The Butcher to Ohtani.

 

Justin T: Any chance of my personal favorite, CIMA Nobunaga? I'd be inspired to drive all the way from the Carolinas to see him perform in person.

 

Gabe Sapolsky: You never know who you might see in ROH.

 

JustinTheFish: Speaking of the Carolinas, how far away are you from a show down here. I'm sure you realize the potential hotbed that stretches from Raleigh to Greenville to Greenwood to Charleston.

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Probably a long way unfortunately.

 

Justin T: Guess I’ll be waiting patiently. Random question time- Who would you sign from WWE if you could have any one guy? Manager, booker, agent, valet, worker, whoever.

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Kurt Angle

 

Justin T: Good pick, I'd say the same or Benoit, but of course I’d think Kurt has the healthier body at this point. I see with how long Xavier is holding the belt you guys

don't throw titles around like trash. How important are titles in ROH?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: The titles are everything is ROH. It's what everyone wants. You can't be the top guy without titles and you can't promote things a real sport without the champions being important.

 

Justin T: I see a lot of guys getting chances to shine in ROH when they haven't before on that type of scale before. American Dragon or Paul London for instance. Do you guys succumb to the infamous 'indy pecking order' or does a worker's performances and ability determine their spot?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: I don't understand the part about the ‘infamous indy pecking order’, but in ROH your performance and ability is everything and that's how you get your spot. No politics, no BS, just ability.

 

Justin T: The pecking order is just who near always is put over on the indy scene. Anyhow, currently your DVDs are about 3-4 months behind, will ROH soon allow DVD fanatics such as myself the opportunity to keep up with your shows in a timely manner? I understand DVDs aren't easy to make with speed like a VHS tape is.

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Yes, we are working on that and it is our #1 goal right now. We want to get our releases out much faster than we are and we are just trying to catch up now.

 

Justin T: Let's play word & name association to end this out.

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Okay

 

Justin T: Rob Feinstein-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Friend

 

Justin T: Jerry Jarrett-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Visionary

 

Justin T: Vince Russo-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Not my style

 

Justin T: NWA TNA-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Like The PPV concept

 

Justin T: Vince McMahon-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Top Dog

 

Justin T: WWE-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Sucks

 

Justin T: Rob Black-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Who?

 

Justin T: XPW-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: What’s that?

 

Justin T: Paul Heyman-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Genius

 

Justin T: Like Lanny? ECW-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Groundbreaking

 

Justin T: On to the talent, Lo Ki-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Incredible

 

Justin T: Chris Daniels-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: MVP

 

Justin T: American Dragon-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Awesome

 

Justin T: I'd say "(the) Future", myself. Paul London-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: The Man

 

Justin T: Michael Shane-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Heel

 

Justin T: Steve Corino-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Talented

 

Justin T: Donnie B-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Funny

 

Justin T: Can I Have A Job?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: (laughs)

 

Justin T: (laughs) Seriously! Last- Ring of Honor-

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Fresh

 

Justin T: Well that does it for me. Thanks tons for your time. Any last comments for our Oratory readers?

 

Gabe Sapolsky: Sure, Thank you everyone. It is with your support that ROH manages to survive and hopefully grow. It is with you DVD and VHS and merchandise purchases that we stay in business. If you are getting your ROH stuff from bootleggers, don't be surprised if ROH isn't around. That is stealing from everyone from the opening match guys to the refs to the main event guys because they are depending on our tape sales for their income too. We can't thank you enough for your support and you can check ROHwrestling.com or RFVideo.com for the latest on ROH and to get merchandise. I look forward to all feedback and you can email at [email protected]. Thank you.

 

Justin T: Well, thanks again Gabe, and best of luck to, according to the Observer year end polls, best promotion in the country, Ring of Honor.

[Guest Phoenix Fury Legdrop]

Gabe's a sad case of buying into his own hype. I mean, the matches are good-great, but, really, he has one damn storyline that he uses over and over and over again: "I refuse to shake your hand, so we're going to feud."

[Guest OSIcon]

I am not going to claim that Gabe is the greatest booker ever, but he is doing a good job. A lot of times, less is more. Especially in a promotion like ROH. Gabe generally does a good job with this.

 

The first smart thing was the whole idea of the Code of Honor. It makes things very clear and simple. If a guy breaks the code, he is a heel. It gives you clearly defined heels without getting into too much nonsense. Faces are the guys that have "honor" and follow it. It is very simple, but at least there are clear heels and faces.

 

As for the angles, they are simple and based around wrestling. Its not accurate to say the only angle he does is "I don't want to shake hands". The prophecy does that, but thats it. Michael Shane shakes hands before the match, but just shows a general arrogance when wrestling, gets bitter about shaking an opponent's hand if he loses, and takes joy in making his opponent shake after a win. Again, nothing ground breaking, but simple and effective. I could list a dozen feuds in ROH that have all be done in different ways.

 

So while I wouldn't say Gabe is the best booker I have ever seen, he does deserve credit for booking things that make sense, are simple, and revolve around in ring work. That's more then what can be said for most bookers.

[Guest Phoenix Fury Legdrop]

I am not going to claim that Gabe is the greatest booker ever, but he is doing a good job. A lot of times, less is more. Especially in a promotion like ROH. Gabe generally does a good job with this.

 

The first smart thing was the whole idea of the Code of Honor. It makes things very clear and simple. If a guy breaks the code, he is a heel. It gives you clearly defined heels without getting into too much nonsense. Faces are the guys that have "honor" and follow it. It is very simple, but at least there are clear heels and faces.

 

As for the angles, they are simple and based around wrestling. Its not accurate to say the only angle he does is "I don't want to shake hands". The prophecy does that, but thats it. Michael Shane shakes hands before the match, but just shows a general arrogance when wrestling, gets bitter about shaking an opponent's hand if he loses, and takes joy in making his opponent shake after a win. Again, nothing ground breaking, but simple and effective. I could list a dozen feuds in ROH that have all be done in different ways.

 

So while I wouldn't say Gabe is the best booker I have ever seen, he does deserve credit for booking things that make sense, are simple, and revolve around in ring work. That's more then what can be said for most bookers.

It is simple. But, it's too simple. I mean, why should I give a crap because Chris Daniels refuses to shake Low Ki's hand? Why should I give a crap about Chad Collyer, because he uses a Texas Cloverleaf? Why should I give a crap if CM Punk doesn't like the fact that Raven used to be a big partier? Why should I give a crap if Michael Shane decides to break a rule, especially one like the handshake, which has absolutely no consequence in any matches, outside of "getting heat with the boys", which in itself is a term that really shouldn't be used on a show that already displays enough smarkness rubbed in our faces. In a way, the simplicity is too simplistic, yet too complex.

 

Again, the in-ring product is good, but even I, an admitted smark geek, am getting bored with faces who are faces only because they respect each other, and heels who are supposed bad people until they leave the locker room, and then become someone who puts on a great performance for the fans, who the heel is supposed to hate, and then show respect to his opponent after the match.

[Chunk 0]

But with the quality of the in ring pay off that you get from the feuds, does anyone really care how they come about?

 

I dont think the guy can win. If he booked segment after segment to develop feuds, then he would be criticised for going against what has made ROH popular and stand out. And if he concentrates on in ring work over story lines, then thats wrong as well.

 

personally, from what ive seen, i think hes doing a good job.

 

If i want crazy ass reasons for feuds, then ill watch WWE.

 

If i want quality match ups then its ROH.

 

ChUnK!

[Guest Phoenix Fury Legdrop]

But with the quality of the in ring pay off that you get from the feuds, does anyone really care how they come about?

 

I dont think the guy can win. If he booked segment after segment to develop feuds, then he would be criticised for going against what has made ROH popular and stand out. And if he concentrates on in ring work over story lines, then thats wrong as well.

 

personally, from what ive seen, i think hes doing a good job.

 

If i want crazy ass reasons for feuds, then ill watch WWE.

 

If i want quality match ups then its ROH.

 

ChUnK!

First off, you don't have to have a zillion segments to set up a feud, and it doesn't have to have "crazy-ass reasons". I'll give you one of my favorite recent examples: At Wildside in August, Iceberg attacked David Young after a match, and made him bleed a gusher. After the match, Jeff G. Bailey and Iceberg had promo time, and David Young cut a really great promo, covered in blood. Three segments, all really, really good, and they made the mark in me want to see David beat the living hell out of Iceberg. That's how you build to a match.

 

As for the match quality making up for a sucky feud, to be honest, I don't see how anyone as a wrestling fan could get the maximum enjoyment out of any match without at least a good feud to back the match up. Not to say that a really good match just thrown out there is bad, but I'd rather see Bryan Danielson and Chris Daniels do a blow-off match to a long feud than just a random match involving the two, as great as it may be.

[Chunk 0]

First off, you don't have to have a zillion segments to set up a feud, and it doesn't have to have "crazy-ass reasons". I'll give you one of my favorite recent examples: At Wildside in August, Iceberg attacked David Young after a match, and made him bleed a gusher. After the match, Jeff G. Bailey and Iceberg had promo time, and David Young cut a really great promo, covered in blood. Three segments, all really, really good, and they made the mark in me want to see David beat the living hell out of Iceberg. That's how you build to a match.

 

As for the match quality making up for a sucky feud, to be honest, I don't see how anyone as a wrestling fan could get the maximum enjoyment out of any match without at least a good feud to back the match up. Not to say that a really good match just thrown out there is bad, but I'd rather see Bryan Danielson and Chris Daniels do a blow-off match to a long feud than just a random match involving the two, as great as it may be.

Fair points. Im not denying that heat between two guys will make for a better match.

 

I guess its just finding that balance between too much stroyline building and too little.

 

Perhaps I should start watching wildside.

 

ChUnK!