No cruiser match at mania

[Guest Mystery Eskimo]

I like flippyfloppy, at least over hosses. Anyone can stand there and throw obviously fake punches and kicks.

[Guest Anglesault]

I know you have to be some sort of psychology nut and love headlocks to really call yourself a "smart" fan, but give it a rest.

 

I HAVE to like two people flipping around the ring?

 

 

 

Last time I checked Angle uses a moonsault as one of his finishers...

 

The one that rarely hits and has never pinned a soul? And on top of that, it has NEVER followed a quintiple backflip into an eyepoke.

[Guest Brian]

I was somewhat disappointed with Malenko's work in WCW. I was much more interested in Juvi, Eddie, and Ultimo who all mixed it up with the highspots, kept the guys under control, and worked some really awesome matches. Not to say Malenko wasn't great.

[Guest Anglesault]

You don't think Dean was at least near his peak?

[Guest Brian]

No, I'm not saying he was bad, I'm saying he didn't really understand the fundamental point of being a ground guy with cruiserweights. He was awesome when he got in with Benoit or Ultimo, but even though his matches with a Mysterio were good, he didn't grasp the high-end qualities of working with those guys. He was still very, very good, and he did an awesome job with the psychology and stuff, but his pacing and general match flow were just not at the same level I would have liked to have seen.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

I am also a bigger fan of Malenko than the Luchadores.

[Guest Anglesault]

No, I'm not saying he was bad, I'm saying he didn't really understand the fundamental point of being a ground guy with cruiserweights. He was awesome when he got in with Benoit or Ultimo, but even though his matches with a Mysterio were good, he didn't grasp the high-end qualities of working with those guys. He was still very, very good, and he did an awesome job with the psychology and stuff, but his pacing and general match flow were just not at the same level I would have liked to have seen.

I think that has something to do with the flipping being retarded.

[Guest Brian]

If you want to look at it that way. But the why wasn't Malenko able to take the retardedness and form it into a match of the same quality and standards that Dragon, Eddie, and Juvi did among others who have gained popularity in America.

[Guest Anglesault]

Basically, because that is just so far off Melenko's specialty, which is...WRESTLING.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

Dragon & Juvy are also two of the most overrated wrestlers ever.  Eddy really is/was great.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Malenko didn't understand how to work in his masturbatory mat wrestling spots to connect with the fans.  See his matches against Rey Jr where he had him on the mat for 11 minutes and then let Rey Jr up for 2 minutes of highspots.  Where as Dragon (in WCW 11/24/96 v Rey) and Juve (all of their AAA matches), reigned Rey Jr in but let him do his thing.  But whenever Rey got lossed or too spotty, they brought him back into the match.

 

As for Dragon and Juve being over rated, what matches have you seen from them?  Obviously not many.

 

Tim

[Guest Anglesault]

Malenko didn't understand how to work in his masturbatory mat wrestling spots to connect with the fans.  See his matches against Rey Jr where he had him on the mat for 11 minutes and then let Rey Jr up for 2 minutes of highspots.  

I think Rey really should have HAD to work the mat style instead of fucking the flow of the match up.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"I think Rey really should have HAD to work the mat style instead of fucking the flow of the match up."

 

Ok, I will take your word for it.

 

Tim, thinking that talkking sensibly about what is good lightweight wrestling is harder than actually trying to analyze the WWF style of wrasslin.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

" See his matches against Rey Jr where he had him on the mat for 11 minutes and then let Rey Jr up for 2 minutes of highspots"

 

Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, it's a line straight from John D. Williams' WCW DVDVR top 20 matches post, with the exact same numbers (11 and 2)...

[Guest Brian]

Here's what JDW wrote for reference:

 

"1. Ultimo Dragon vs. Rey Misterio, Jr. (11/24/96 - WWIII '96 - J-Crown)

To me this is the closest WCW's cruiser division ever got to the best of the NJ Juniors division. Dragon was Liger here, and Rey Jr. was a young Ohtani. This wasn't a spot-a-thon at all, but it also wasn't a Malenko vs. Rey match where Malenko would dominate on the mat for 11:00 before letting Rey up for 2:00 of highspots beforen hitting the finish. Dragon dominated, but unlike Malenko, knew how to let Rey up _regularly_ during the match to run off a few high spots before perfectly hitting a transition spot to go back into dominating. The best was countering the springboard huracanrana with one of the most picture perfectly exectued Liger Bombs I've ever seen hit. This had splendid back-and-forth action, but never was rushed in allowing itself to build into a *match*. This was at a time when WCW would push a star to death, and since Rey was the star of the junior division, there was some doubt that he'd follow his title job to Malenko with another clean job to Dragon. The expectation was something screwy. Instead we got a clean win that made Dragon look strong going into the Starcade match with Malenko.

 

The WCW cruiser division was downhill from the 11/96 Dragon vs. Rey and 12/96 Dragon vs. Malenko matches. They had other matches that I liked quite a bit, such as the Eddy vs. Rey from Havoc '97. But for every flash like that, or the good house show matches of Eddy vs. Chavo and Dragon vs. Psic, they have crap. Load of crap that kept the division from reaching the heights that it had every reason to reach. Syxx, Alex Wright and "face" Chris Jericho as champ. Rudo Eddy getting cut off so the company could go back to heel Jericho as champ... a role where Jericho never produced a classic WCW match, no matter how much people turned into Jerichoholics. Rey's injuries, and the promotion never getting hard enough on him about how he should rehab. Face Juve being pushed by his "friends" of be a high flying J. Misterio Jr rather than what he had been in Mexico in his prime - the best young rudo in the business with an offense loaded to the giles that flying was only a small part of. Then later Rudo Juve being a pale ghost of Rudo Juve in Mexico in 1995 and early 1996. The push to the moon of Kidman that did wonders for getting Kidman over, but seriously hurt the depth of the rest of the division in getting over. Then pulling the plug on Kidman and fucking up his career. And generally the entire division being pushed into working spot-spot-spot Nitro style matches rather than the artistry of Dragon vs. Rey and Dragon vs. Dean which was _super over_ in 1996. This isn't even touching on the shit like Madusa and Oakie. This division was terminally ill long before that, with WCW Cruiser Rubes being like crack whores - give them a little hit of high spots and they'll "open for business" to believe the division still had hope. "

[Guest J*ingus]

Hey, if he just doesn't like cruiserweight matches, who are we to tell him that his OPINION is wrong?  If you think one match or another was "state of the art", good for you, glad you liked it so much.  But that doesn't mean that everyone else has to love it too.

[Guest One Bad Apple]

This Jingus fellow is right.  I don't like Anglesault, but a couple of you are being assholes.

 

 

There's nothing real about wrestling, so there's no reason why realism has to valued so highly.

 

That's why people got pissed over Russo angles and the boardroom skit on Raw.  Go and talk with them.

 

...I know you have to be some sort of psychology nut and love headlocks to really call yourself a "smart" fan, but give it a rest.

 

Of course ... if someone doesn't like cruisers, it must be because they're trying to act "smart."

 

Last time I checked Angle uses a moonsault as one of his finishers...

 

I think Anglesault responded to this one, but why not.

 

That move never hits.  And to me, the moonsault isn't nearly as ridiculous as some of the extraneous flipping I've seen before a simple armdrag.

 

 

As for Dragon and Juve being over rated, what matches have you seen from them?  Obviously not many.

 

Your opinions aren't facts, jackass.

 

"Ignorance is bliss".

 

I'm assuming you don't want a civil discussion here, what  with condescending remarks like this.

 

Tim, thinking that talkking sensibly about what is good lightweight wrestling is harder than actually trying to analyze the WWF style of wrasslin.

 

How cool you are!  Man is you, mein freund!

 

Have you ever watched the entire Rey v Juvi series?  And not just the ECW/WCW stuff.  Get their AAA work and then get the 3/16/96 Tijuana Hand Held, which with a finish, is the best match in North American in the 1990's.  Even without the finish, it is better than 99.99% of what the WWF did in the 90's and 97% of what WCW did in the 90's.

 

I take that back.

 

 

 

No cruiser match at mania

Wtf?!?!?

 

Why the #### would they have one?  They could've, but that wasn't too likely.  Maybe you're just trying to be like so many of the other rad folk here.  Y'know, acting like something obvious caught you by surprise and then getting absurdly pissed off about it.

 

 

Tajiri vs. Xpac or Hurricane would not fit with the WWF wrestlemania plans.

 

Those plans being to bury the cruisers...and not provide any good in ring action.

 

I don't agree with that, but that was funny enough to cancel out the insult I was going to throw your way after I saw something said by The Mighty Damaramu in your signature.

 

 

The spot fest were used perfectly by WCW as openers to get the crowd going.  They also draw for the hispanic population which is good for business.

 

And this thread has drawn at least one for the Nazi racist population.  Go print up some more pamphlets on how the mud races are corrupting the television industry, Himmler.  

 

 

X-Pac has been told NOT to come back with the belt.

 

Where'd you here this garbage?  

 

No one tells X-Pac what to do.  

 

He plays by his own set of rules.

[Guest converge241]

I wish they would have unified the belts with Tajiri - Xpac.

But what are you going to do?

[Guest Spaceman Spiff]

An opening Cruiser match would have been better than that God-awful 6-man tag on Heat.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, it's a line straight from John D. Williams' WCW DVDVR top 20 matches post, with the exact same numbers (11 and 2)..."

 

It is fine to quote people.....I should have put the parenthesis.  

 

The sub set of this discussion was someone not liking Rey and Juve for being too "flippy floppy".

 

Tim: "As for Dragon and Juve being over rated, what matches have you seen from them?  Obviously not many."

 

"Your opinions aren't facts, jackass."

 

What opinions are in the statement "As for Dragon and Juve being over rated, what matches have you seen from them?  Obviously not many"?  

 

I want to know *WHY* Rey Jr and Juve aren't good and why guys like Angle and HHH are.  Do match analysis, do comparisons, do timelines to see how Juniors wrestling evolved.

 

But don't come back with irrevelent comments.  Your right, I should not have ended my reply with Tim, ......... but I made my point with Ignorance is Bliss.  Watch the stuff, compare everything, and then if you still don't personally like it, then that is your perogative.

 

I base my opinions of matches on watching the match myself and information from the few informative guys on the net.

 

Tim, rambling isn't good.

[Guest Rick001]

The 6 man belonged on HEAT.

 

Rikishi:  big man same 3 moves

 

Scotty:  Dried up when he came back after they fired Grandmasta Sexay

 

Albert:  Big overpushed man who is now a jobber

 

Mr. Perfect:  WTF is he doing back?

 

Test:  His boot is over too bad he isn't

 

Lance Storm:  Good Wrestler felt bad he was on heat.  Only one who deserved to be in WM18

 

As for the Cruiserweights I like them but for some reason the WWF has seen it fit to underpush the cruiserweights (Tajiri, Hurricane, X-Pac) let them go (Malenko) or tell them to bulk up (Kidman)  I would rather see a 6 man insane cruiserweight match than HALF the matches at WM18 at least it would be good and get pops.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

More on Rey v Juve 3/16/96 and the US Cruiserweight Scene

 

The Rey Jr. v Juve feud was something that evolved from a bunch of styles from around the world.  Rey Jr brought innovative high flying, which is being modeled after today by anyone who does high risk flying.  Juve was a heel that did the unthinkable in Mexico and actually incorporated a variety of moves into his offense.  

 

Their first big singles match was on 11/30/94.  They also had matches in 1995 on 1/21, 4/21, 6/15, and then in 1996 in 2/96 with a cag match.  If you watch all of these matches together, you get the feeling that Juve is taking Rey into his hands and making something of the match.  This is simple to identify by watching any other Rey Jr AAA singles match and see how it is nothing more than a lucha condensed spot fest.  

 

By 3/16/96, Rey and Juve take Lucha Libre and combine it with NJPW/UWF-I mat work, mix in world class highspots, and Juve brings the moves from around the world.  Watch any other Lucha Rudo at this time and the moves Juve is doing are amazing.  He paces Rey and is able to make perfect sense out of all of the Rey's highspots.

 

Contrast this to most of Rey's WCW work.  He was thrown out there to wow the crowd with little thought put into the matches.  If you actually watch the Malenko/Rey series after watching the Rey/Juvi AAA feud, you will see how little Malenko did with Rey, other than slowing him down and maybe injecting a bit of selling into him.

 

Then watch the 11/24/96 Dragon v Rey and 12/26/96 Malenko v Dragon matches to see a.) Dragon do a much better job at keeping Rey under control yet letting him use his strengths for more than a finish and b.) to be Malenko square off against someone who knows how to carry in Dragon and be able to work a terrific little match that is full of heat.

 

To pass off Rey and Juve as being flippy floppy is an injustice.  It is just as whacky to call Malenko one of the great lightweights of all time.

 

Tim

[Guest One Bad Apple]

What opinions are in the statement "As for Dragon and Juve being over rated, what matches have you seen from them?  Obviously not many"?

That comes across like, "Obviously you haven't seen many Dragon and and Juventud matches if you think they're overrated.  If you saw more of their matches you wouldn't dare think they're overrated.  THEY BRING THE WORKRATE~!"

 

I want to know *WHY* Rey Jr and Juve aren't good and why guys like Angle and HHH are. Do match analysis, do comparisons, do timelines to see how Juniors wrestling evolved.

 

You want him to do all of those things?

 

But don't come back with irrevelent comments.

 

 

They're irrelevant because you didn't understand 'em?

 

Your right, I should not have ended my reply with Tim, ......... but I made my point with Ignorance is Bliss.  Watch the stuff, compare everything, and then if you still don't personally like it, then that is your perogative.

 

How do you know how much cruiserweight stuff he's watched?  I don't think he's mentioned that anywhere in the thread.  If he's only really seen the WCW stuff and didn't like it, him coming the conclusion that he doesn't like the style is valid.

 

The Rey Jr. v Juve feud was something that evolved from a bunch of styles from around the world.  Rey Jr brought innovative high flying, which is being modeled after today by anyone who does blah blah blah ...

 

... Then watch the 11/24/96 Dragon v Rey and 12/26/96 Malenko v Dragon matches to see a.) Dragon do a much better job at keeping Rey under control yet letting him use his strengths for snore snore snore ...

 

Did you actually write this all right now?  Or was this pasted from somewhere?

 

 

So, to reiterate ... you're a jackass.  

 

And a dork.

 

Oh ... I did just go there.

[Guest Anglesault]

X-Pac has been told NOT to come back with the belt.

 

Where'd you here this garbage?  

 

No one tells X-Pac what to do.  

 

He plays by his own set of rules.

He said so himself on WWF.com

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"That comes across like, "Obviously you haven't seen many Dragon and and Juventud matches if you think they're overrated.  If you saw more of their matches you wouldn't dare think they're overrated.  THEY BRING THE WORKRATE~!"

 

Am I suppose to laugh or am I suppose to be amused?  Simply put, if you watch the core of their matches and still can't find anything refreshing about them, then I do question your wrestling tastes........not to say that they are wrong.

 

"You want him to do all of those things?"

 

Moving right along....

 

"They're irrelevant because you didn't understand 'em?"

 

They are irrevelant to me because he didn't back them up with anything.  

 

"How do you know how much cruiserweight stuff he's watched?  I don't think he's mentioned that anywhere in the thread.  If he's only really seen the WCW stuff and didn't like it, him coming the conclusion that he doesn't like the style is valid."

 

Incorrect.  For example, I HATE the WWF style of wrestling that currently infiltrates my TV on Monday, Thursday, and once every Sunday per month.  I watch the WWF and see what I don't and do like about it.  Therefore my judgement of the product is pretty valid, at least in my mind.  But if I did not watch all of this WWF, then I would not consider myself to have complete opinions of the product.

 

If he only saw the WCW Cruiserweight Division, he saw about 3/100'ths of what guys like Dragon and Juve did in their primes.

 

"Did you actually write this all right now?  Or was this pasted from somewhere?"

 

LOL.  Yes I did, you caught me.....

 

"So, to reiterate ... you're a jackass."

 

Okay, thanks for sharing...  

 

And a dork.

 

"Oh ... I did just go there."

 

Yes you did.

 

I think this will be my last shot at trying to help some people maybe think about different views at the least.  But I guess some people are too close minded to try to listen or accept.

 

Last post in this thread by me.

 

Tim

[Guest One Bad Apple]

Am I suppose to laugh or am I suppose to be amused?  Simply put, if you watch the core of their matches and still can't find anything refreshing about them ...

"Overrated" and "bad" are not the same thing.

 

then I do question your wrestling tastes........not to say that they are wrong.

You've never said it, but you've implied it.

 

Moving right along....

Was the question too hard?

 

They are irrevelant to me because he didn't back them up with anything.

I said what I thought and backed it by quoting your remark, which I found condescending to others.

 

Incorrect.  For example, I HATE the WWF style of wrestling that currently infiltrates my TV on Monday, Thursday, and once every Sunday per month.

Then why are you watching?

 

I watch the WWF and see what I don't and do like about it.

 

Considering you hate the style of wrestling, the only thing you like must be the storylines.  Right?  Well, I guess!

 

Therefore my judgement of the product is pretty valid, at least in my mind.

 

That's you, jackass (couldn't resist).  If Kosashi Sanikawa spends six months in the WWF and puts on what I feel to be poor matches, I'll say he's a pretty poor wrestler.  And that's a valid opinion, if only of what I've seen.  

 

Put it this way ... if I've seen three films, each from different periods, featuring some so-and-so in awful performances, I can't call him a bad actor?  I have to go hunting for and analyzing every movie he's ever done before I make that judgement?  

 

But if I did not watch all of this WWF, then I would not consider myself to have complete opinions of the product.

Oh, now I see.  So, in essence, you torture yourself because you want to feel justified in bitching about it or something?  Fucking do something more worthwhile.

 

Okay, thanks for sharing [about how you think that I'm a jackass]...

Actually, maybe I didn't need to share if everyone else already has it.

 

Last post in this thread by me.

No, last post is from me.

 

Yup ... so nice, I had to visit twice.  

 

Whiz-bang ... bang.