The Dames 0 Report post Posted February 25, 2003 Hey Dreamer, I'm not saying that the first season wasn't good, my point is that the stigma of it being a girly show started because of the first few episodes, which is when most people decide whether or not they'll keep on watching. Dames Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Steve J. Rogers Report post Posted February 25, 2003 Teacher's Pet: Potential Teenage Heartthrob Xander tries to get it on with an older woman who selected him because he's a virgin. I have to disagree here, I see the point, but I don't think Xander was ever set up to be a "potential teen heart throb" I don't even recall if the WB marketers ever set Nicholas Brendon up as one either. I think David Boreanz was the only guy marketed as such from the WB's promo department and the actual show's staff. Xander stepped up more in S2 and 3 as a good character (though the character doesn't take off untill "The Pack") Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 25, 2003 The thing with buffy is that her 'girl' issues were still a universal experience - specifically the 'outcast'. So the storylines weren't "OMG I'm all out of tampons!" or "Let's have a slumber party and talk about boys!" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Dames 0 Report post Posted February 25, 2003 Teacher's Pet: Potential Teenage Heartthrob Xander tries to get it on with an older woman who selected him because he's a virgin. I have to disagree here, I see the point, but I don't think Xander was ever set up to be a "potential teen heart throb" I don't even recall if the WB marketers ever set Nicholas Brendon up as one either. I think David Boreanz was the only guy marketed as such from the WB's promo department and the actual show's staff. Xander stepped up more in S2 and 3 as a good character (though the character doesn't take off untill "The Pack") Steve Was there even any promotion for Angel being a heartthrob by the 4th episode? Any young male actors at that point have the potential to be a heartthrob at the beginning of a show. Dames Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest red_file Report post Posted February 25, 2003 Actually the "girly" aspects of the show didn't really become apparent until the second season, which was largely allegorical for the female perspective of a teenage relationship. The Buffy/Angel storyline was the predominate one for the season, and it was what got it most of the attention and it seems that a lot of fans felt it was the best seasonal arc (I don't but, still). Some of the aspects were universal high school experiences, but the big issues for that season were largely female. The "girly" smack also lingered because of the time period in which it was initially produced. We were in the middle of a resurgence of "girl power." You had Xena and Le Femme Nikita and the Lillith Fair was starting to be big. That "Bitch" song broke. Buffy cashed in on that wave because it appeared to be a female empowering show because it had a strong female lead. What got me hooked was during the summer of '98 they were rerunning the first two seasons to prep for the third season. I got home from work and turned on "The Puppet Show" from the first season and found it amusing. Later I saw "School Hard" and was hooked. I don't recall getting any flack for watching the show. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Dames 0 Report post Posted February 25, 2003 The thing with buffy is that her 'girl' issues were still a universal experience - specifically the 'outcast'. So the storylines weren't "OMG I'm all out of tampons!" or "Let's have a slumber party and talk about boys!" What about the 2nd episode of the series....Buffy's DYING to be on the cheerleading squad? There's one moment in Never Kill a Boy on the First Date that almost makes me cringe because of how "girly" it was. Buffy and Willow are talking about Owen when Giles walks in talking about the Anointed One. Giles asks what they're talking about and Willow and Buffy say "BOYS!!" at the same time. Dames Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest red_file Report post Posted February 25, 2003 Teacher's Pet: Potential Teenage Heartthrob Xander tries to get it on with an older woman who selected him because he's a virgin. I have to disagree here, I see the point, but I don't think Xander was ever set up to be a "potential teen heart throb" I don't even recall if the WB marketers ever set Nicholas Brendon up as one either. I think David Boreanz was the only guy marketed as such from the WB's promo department and the actual show's staff. Xander stepped up more in S2 and 3 as a good character (though the character doesn't take off untill "The Pack") Steve Was there even any promotion for Angel being a heartthrob by the 4th episode? Any young male actors at that point have the potential to be a heartthrob at the beginning of a show. Dames Angel was set up as the primary love interest from the first episode. He was always presented as cool and sexy in the first season. They even tried for attraction between Buffy and Angel in the second episode at the crypt. Xander was more or less set up as the geeky loser from his entrace (crashing his skateboard while trying to look at Buffy's ass). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest El Satanico Report post Posted February 25, 2003 Speaking of the stigma...me being called gay for watching Buffy is very unlikely. After all I'm a guy who happens to like Moulin Rouge and Chicago. There's alot better material than Buffy to call me gay over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Dames 0 Report post Posted February 25, 2003 I have to agree with you Red File. My whole point here is that it was classified as a girly show to watch based on the show's earlier seasons. Dames Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Dames 0 Report post Posted February 25, 2003 Xander was more or less set up as the geeky loser from his entrace (crashing his skateboard while trying to look at Buffy's ass). While Angle was booked to be the top heartthrob on the show, there had to be some girls who liked Xander. For a "geeky" guy, Xander's not exactly an ugly guy either. Dames Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 25, 2003 What about the 2nd episode of the series....Buffy's DYING to be on the cheerleading squad? Again, the outcast. She used to be a cheerleader in her old school and now she is trying to reclaim her former high school status. There's one moment in Never Kill a Boy on the First Date that almost makes me cringe because of how "girly" it was. Buffy and Willow are talking about Owen when Giles walks in talking about the Anointed One. Giles asks what they're talking about and Willow and Buffy say "BOYS!!" at the same time. I see that more as a tongue-in-cheek thing than being 'girly'. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest red_file Report post Posted February 25, 2003 Xander was more or less set up as the geeky loser from his entrace (crashing his skateboard while trying to look at Buffy's ass). While Angle was booked to be the top heartthrob on the show, there had to be some girls who liked Xander. And there was: Willow. He stood oblivious to the fact that this incredibly hot girl liked him. Pity. And, yes, eventually Cordy took to liking him, but I think he was always played up as the geek of the show. Recent episodes with his raport with Andrew would seem to confirm that. Compared to every other guy on the show (with the expection of Wesley), Xander was horribly geeky. Didn't wear cool clothes, always had geeky allusions and jokes that others didn't find funny (though which were extremely funny to those at home), and was always pining after the hot girl he knew he couldn't get. Not saying that Nicholas Brendan isn't a hottie -- he most certainly is, though could stand to tone up a bit these days -- only that his character was...er..."booked" to be the fool on the show. Viewers finding him hot was as incidental as viewers finding Willow hot in the first few seasons (she was originally cast as a fat girl). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Report post Posted February 25, 2003 I think Buffy suffers far more from a "this must be a crappy show...look at the title" stigma than a girly show one. If you go up to a crowd of...say 5 friends and say "so...anyone watch Buffy last night?" 4 of them will look at you funny and laugh and the other one will get real suspicious that your on to his dirty secret. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 25, 2003 I'd say you would get 3 confused looks, 1 laugh, and one suspicious person. The 3 confused would be "why would I watch 'buffy'" . The eps. with the swim team was on yesterday - which had Xander in speedos. Now lets never speak of this again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest raptor Report post Posted February 25, 2003 Living in a college dorm and watching Buffy are not a good combination. I'm not the kind of guy who hides the stuff he likes (thus Daredevil on the wall and Buffy DVDs prominatley displayed), so I take a lot of (usually kind) shit for watching Buffy. It's not of the Gay type, though. It's quite the opposite, as people think I just watch the show to stare at the women. Don't even try to explain to people that you watch it for character development and dialouge, because they aren't having it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Steve J. Rogers Report post Posted February 25, 2003 I think Buffy suffers far more from a "this must be a crappy show...look at the title" stigma than a girly show one. If you go up to a crowd of...say 5 friends and say "so...anyone watch Buffy last night?" 4 of them will look at you funny and laugh and the other one will get real suspicious that your on to his dirty secret. Now that I agree with. And of course the title gets a double stigma with "vampire" as well due to sci-fi/horror's current lull in main stream popularity. As in, not only are you watching a show with a girly name, but you are watching some "Nightmare on Friday the 13th Scream Holloween Street" shit. Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Report post Posted February 25, 2003 I disagree with the girly show part to this end: Joss Whedon said the idea for Buffy came from always watching the dumb blonde girl get killed in slasher movies. And he thought...what if that blonde girl in the alley wasn't so weak...and was actually this kick ass chick. Since it stems from a genre that is guy driven...I think it's easier to draw a line that says all of the "girly" things about the show were just humanizing devices for Buffy's character. Of course she wants to be on the cheerleading squad! She spent the first many years wanting just to be normal...and not the slayer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest red_file Report post Posted February 25, 2003 I disagree with the girly show part to this end: Joss Whedon said the idea for Buffy came from always watching the dumb blonde girl get killed in slasher movies. And he thought...what if that blonde girl in the alley wasn't so weak...and was actually this kick ass chick. Since it stems from a genre that is guy driven...I think it's easier to draw a line that says all of the "girly" things about the show were just humanizing devices for Buffy's character. Of course she wants to be on the cheerleading squad! She spent the first many years wanting just to be normal...and not the slayer. I'd quibble here. I think that the ethos of Buffy are different than that of the horror genre. While Whedon was right in that the dumb blonde girl gets killed, the horror genre likes to have the lone survivor be female as well; have the virginal girl triumph over evil. Often times, the lone survivor is also the best developed character (by comparison). The story that is typically told, though, is usually external and cautionary; i.e. if you're a bad person, something bad is going to happen to you. Buffy seems to be a rather internal show. Most of what happens in the show is allegorical for emotional trauma; the demons are personifications of the petty problems that these students face (hormones become students possessed by jackal spirits; a love affair gone bad becomes your lover turning into your mortal enemy; the feeling that as a teenager no one can understand what it's like to be you and your responsibilities becomes being a superhero that no one can understand and whose responsibilites you can't tell anyone about; etc). Typical horror doesn't seem to want to go for that type of complexity. Emotional complexity is usually the provenance of "girly" stuff. Compare Ginger Snaps to Teen Wolf. The only way the "male" movie could deal with the same topics was to make it into a comedy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 25, 2003 Hmm, two very interesting takes. Is Buffy a Horror/Slasher show with Girly elements? Or is it a Girly Show with Horror/Slasher elements? Do the two balance each other out? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest EQ Report post Posted February 25, 2003 I never got the impression that Buffy was a girly show. In fact, I'd say that more guys like it than girls. Now that I think about it, the only people who've ever mocked me for watching the show were girls, on the grounds that "the show is dumb". They had never bothered to watch, however. Just an aside... DAMN! There are mad Buffy fans on this board! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest EQ Report post Posted February 26, 2003 Viewers finding him hot was as incidental as viewers finding Willow hot in the first few seasons (she was originally cast as a fat girl). Yeah, I have the unaired pilot on my computer. Basically, it's a really... really crappy version of the first episode of season one (acting was worse, bootleg special effects) but yeah, I was shocked to find out that the girl they originally had cast for Willow was this fat chick. Any Buffy fan should try to get a hold of this file. It's about a half hour long or so. You'll get a great laugh out of it. I know me and Dames did. Search Kazaa for it, that's where I got mine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Cavi Report post Posted February 26, 2003 I think Buffy suffers far more from a "this must be a crappy show...look at the title" stigma than a girly show one. I totally agree. It's a damn shame, as I'm sure this is one of the reasons why the show is overlooked when it comes to say the Emmys (despite Joss getting the nomination for Hush). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Sakura Report post Posted February 26, 2003 I like never think of it as a "girly show". In High School one of my friends was a fan but I thought it looked really lame. Then I caught it on FX. It was back when they were showing "I Robot, You Jane" and "The Puppet Show" like ALL THE TIME. So I started watching it whenever I happened to catch it. Then I got the season 1 box set and was obsessed. It is all thanks to my Buffy mentor, Cavi! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Steve J. Rogers Report post Posted February 26, 2003 And there was: Willow. He stood oblivious to the fact that this incredibly hot girl liked him. ...was as incidental as viewers finding Willow hot in the first few seasons (she was originally cast as a fat girl). BTW, more to this point, I love how they tried to make Allison Hannigan out to be a "plain Jane" geeky girl in the first couple of seasons (well really season 1) I mean it was so bad, when I was watching the S1 DVDs I kept expecting these words to come out of Willow's mouth: "An...and this time...at band camp..." BTW, off topic but I wonder how much of "early" Willow enabled Ally to get that role in American Pie? The fact that she had done work with that type of shy, little nerdy girl who needs something to open her up (in Will's case being around Buffy, in Michele's case is getting some with Jim, obstensibly making him her bitch) Both are pretty good characters though Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
