A James Bond Rant

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

How come MGM won't let Bond be a vicous mysoginistic bastard like he is in the novels? I'm getting sick and tired of this pussified, watered-down, shit we've been fed ever since Thunderball. I don't see what the problem is: Bond is so non-PC is any form, to just go all out. The man is supposed to be a remorseless killer, but he hesitates to kill a woman who duped him the whole time. (The World Is Not Enough) He's supposed to be the most dangerous agent ever, but he acts like a fucking celebrity 9 times out of 10. Say what you will about Dalton's James Bond, but as of right now he's been the only actor to play James Bond, and make him seem like an intellegence operative; not a playboy.

 

Here's things I would like to see in Bond movies:

 

1. Villains who have more personal goals. It doesn't always have to be about toppling goverments, or cornering the world market in X, sometimes it can be as small as a double agent, or simple revenge.

 

2. Bond gets out of a sticky situation with his brain, and not his gadgets.

 

3. Bond discovers a female companion has betrayed him and kills her in a very nasty way.

 

4. Bond uses STEALTH. (And I don't mean stealth cars. I mean infiltration.)

 

5. Bond doesn't give out his real name.

 

6. We get the old M/Bond: mentor/student relationship. Because I could care less about the new M's feelings on Bond's lifestyle.

 

7. Bond breaks someone's neck.

 

8. Bond goes after the IRA. (That would just rock ass.)

 

9. The themes get better.

 

10. The plots become less "action" based, and more "suspense" based.

[Guest DrTom]

I'd like to see a lot of those things too, Zsasz. The problem is, Bond movies today are made for the ADD Generation. Cerebral plot twists, cunning villains, and daring escapades have been replaced by explosions, gadgetry, and celebrity babes. I can still be entertained by the Bond movies as action-adventures, but they're certainly not what they used to be.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I wouldn't mind seeing Daniel Day Lewis as bond.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

The "Train Ride" fight in From Russia, With Love is a perfect example of how to do Bond: It was gritty, emotionally charged, and suspenseful. We need more scenes like that, and less shit like the "Submarine" fight in The World is Not Enough.

 

I thought the first hour of Die Another Day wasn't bad, but once he got the stealth car...it all went downhill.

[Guest SP-1]

Say what you will about Dalton's James Bond, but as of right now he's been the only actor to play James Bond, and make him seem like an intellegence operative; not a playboy.

I have read only one Bond novel, Zsasz, and I totally agree with you there. I like the literary Bond much more than the film Bond as he is, and Dalton is the closest that I have seen to that.

 

CORRECTION: One and a half, but the "half" in that is half a newer novel that I started reading, and just kinda fell away from and haven't picked back up. I think it was alright, and I still have it here I just don't have any great desire to pick it back up. I loved the Fleming novel I've read however.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

How about this for an idea:

 

Since the Bond films have already gone so far off continuity, why not make a BIG change to the character? I heard a suggestion to keep Bond's resignation from License to Kill (This was before GoldenEye had been made) permanent. have him work as a mercanary, that would open up a whole world of possibilities for the character. He would also have to operate while being chased by British Intellegence, which would add another dimension to the films.

[Guest SP-1]

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the franchise rebooted, so to speak. New actor playing Bond, a return to the gritty Bond roots. Just make it clear that we're starting over. Only problem is that I don't know how the audience might recieve that.

[Guest areacode212]

I agree with pretty much everything on your list, except for #3 (I don't want to see chicks get killed in nasty ways), as well as your feelings on Civil Servant Bond vs. Socialite Bond. When I first saw Goldeneye a few months ago, I couldn't believe how much of a polar opposite Brosnan was from Dalton. Enough with the stupid puns, the smirking, and the ridiculous car chases.

 

 

I'm way too sleepy to elaborate more, but if I want to see a badass government agent these days, I watch 24. Bond is a cartoon.

[Guest razazteca]

Die Another Day was about revenge in the begining of the movie as he wanted to find the evil Korean.

 

Bond used his celebrity as a tool to get a free hotel room and clothes then he beat up the commie camera crew who were hiding in the closet.

 

Daniel Day Lewis as Bond would kickass.

[Guest WrestlingDeacon]

You have two places to focus your blame, Roger Moore's characterization of the witty, playboy Bond and the Broccoli's falling out with screenwriter/director Kevin McClory.

 

In the late fifites, Ian Fleming teamed up with McClory to devlop an original Bond script for a movie. That was Thunderball, which Fleming then turned into a novel without crediting McClory and later a film under the Broccoli regime for MGM/UA. Broccoli and McClory could never really come to terms and they fought a legal battle over not Bond itself, but certain elements of the series. The court settlement gave McClory rights to certain elements that he seemingly invented for the film, such as Blofeld and Specter, along with co-rights to certain trademark Bond elements, so he could produce his own Bond movie, but he couldn't do it until ten years after the debut of Thunderball.

 

So, future writers were told to steer clear of certain elements of the Bond mythos and persona in order to keep it seperate from McClory's impending film which was to be a direct sequel and take off of Thunderball. With Moore's characterization and the success of more "cheekier" Bond films in the mid-seventies this was the course MGM plotted while McClory's attempts to put a movie together fell through time and time again. McClory finally produced Never Say Never Again, but it was viewed as a dull retread of Thunderball and Connery's characterization was tired and haggard. The intellectual properties of McClory were owned by Sony at last count and they were trying to get a piece of the Bond pie from MGM/UA, but where that stands I do not know.

[Guest Lethargic]

I've been watching all the Bond movies lately since I hadn't seen 90% of them until now. So far From Russia With Love is the only I've liked. The rest have all been pure garbage. Some of the worst movies I've ever seen with some of the worst, most over the top bullshit that mankind has ever dreamed up. I mean, good lord, three nippled people? A mini-airplane hidden inside a fake horse ass?? People wanna talk about how stupid, over the top, corny and everything that Batman and Robin is and that's all true. But come on, nearly every single Bond movie I've seen has been just as retarded as Batman and Robin but yet they make 20 of them.

[Guest Si82]

I do agree in with this in as much as the Bond films could benefit from being a little more gritty and realistic.

 

I personally loved Dalton as Bond. He was just a smart, tough bastard who wouldn't give up.

 

Mind you, there have been a few good Bond films in this vain. Stuff like "From Russia With Love", "For Your Eyes Only" & "Licence To Kill" were all great movies where Bond had use his wits more than gadgets.

 

However, I do also like the more fantasical Bond films as well. They aren't as good as the grittery ones however and I really would enjoy it if the next, and possibly last, Brosnan Bond was a gritter one.

[Guest Brian]

Since vwe're on the subject somewhat, has anyone ever read "Riley, Ace of Spies" the non-fiction novel Flemings work was largely based on.

[Guest cabbageboy]

Dalton's main problem as Bond was that he was a humorless bastard. The guy just had no personality, and that is why Licence to Kill tanked. It was a bit mean spirited and non formula (and quite honestly watching it again after a decade it is boring).

 

I've never read the Fleming books, but I also would appreciate a bit more seriousness. Get rid of Judi Dench for god's sake. The whole Female M concept was amusing in Goldeneye but it gets more and more annoying with time. Ok we had a laugh at M being a woman, now let's get Connery for the role and have something bad ass.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Dalton's main problem as Bond was that he was a humorless bastard. The guy just had no personality, and that is why Licence to Kill tanked. It was a bit mean spirited and non formula (and quite honestly watching it again after a decade it is boring).

 

I've never read the Fleming books, but I also would appreciate a bit more seriousness. Get rid of Judi Dench for god's sake. The whole Female M concept was amusing in Goldeneye but it gets more and more annoying with time. Ok we had a laugh at M being a woman, now let's get Connery for the role and have something bad ass.

Quite frankly, I find License to Kill one of the highlights of the series. It has a socially relevent villain, a very personal story, and gives good opportunity for Dalton to flex his acting chops. His Bond is on a personal mission, has betrayed the only family he's ever known, and does not allow himself to be distracted in going after his prey. It also has a GREAT plot twist with the Chinese Narcotics kingpins. The problems are twofold:

 

1. Despite what I've said, the writers never shook the feeling that Bond was slumming by going after these guys. (Live and Let Die suffered from this as well.) I could have accepted an outlandish stunt or two, just to show the audience that this is indeed, the James Bond they know and love.

 

2. They never really play up any of the interesting things Bond is doing. As I said, he's betrayed his family (MI6) and they never even talk about. They skip over the mental conflict of avenging Felix or doing his job. It feels like they had all the elements in place, but decided not to elaborate on them.

 

License to Kill would have tanked no matter WHO starred as Bond. It was in the biggest blockbuster summer in history,(Batman, Lethal Weapon 2, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Do the Right Thing, UHF) and nobody wanted to see non-formula Bond. I think it's gotten better with age though.

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

License to Kill is my favorite Bond. Probably the best too along with For Your Eyes Only, Dr. No and From Russia with love.

[Guest WrestlingDeacon]

Funny you mention UHF, which got slaughtered at the box office and Do the Right Thing was a very small picture that just got critical buzz. Your blockbusters for 1989 were: Batman

Lethal Weapon 2

Look Who's Talking

Honey I Shrunk the Kids

Back to the Future 2

Ghostbusters 2

Little Mermaid

Parenthood

 

I actually prefer Living Daylights to Liscense to Kill by a good margin. LtK just never felt like a Bond movie what with him going after drug dealers like he was Steven Seagal. The link with Felix never came off as they had a new guy playing Felix in each film and that makes it hard to relate to and care about the character. Living Daylights had a more focused, one woman romance and Dalton's grittier more serious portrayal was a breath of fresh air from Moore.

 

Brosnan was originally going to start the series with the Living Daylights, but hype of him becoming James Bond made ratings soar on his struggling series Remington Steele, leading NBC to renew it. So, Brosnan wasn't free to be Bond and Steele lost it's momentum due to that and cancelled halfway through the following season.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Funny you mention UHF, which got slaughtered at the box office and Do the Right Thing was a very small picture that just got critical buzz. Your blockbusters for 1989 were: Batman

Lethal Weapon 2

Look Who's Talking

Honey I Shrunk the Kids

Back to the Future 2

Ghostbusters 2

Little Mermaid

Parenthood

 

I actually prefer Living Daylights to Liscense to Kill by a good margin. LtK just never felt like a Bond movie what with him going after drug dealers like he was Steven Seagal. The link with Felix never came off as they had a new guy playing Felix in each film and that makes it hard to relate to and care about the character. Living Daylights had a more focused, one woman romance and Dalton's grittier more serious portrayal was a breath of fresh air from Moore.

 

Brosnan was originally going to start the series with the Living Daylights, but hype of him becoming James Bond made ratings soar on his struggling series Remington Steele, leading NBC to renew it. So, Brosnan wasn't free to be Bond and Steele lost it's momentum due to that and cancelled halfway through the following season.

I agree about The Living Daylights but didn't really feel like bringing it up since the topic was about License to Kill. However, I'd say The Living Daylights was proof positive that Dalton could indeed play a good Bond. I had a PM conversation with a Dalton hater on the board who had never seen it, and was surprised when I cited it as the best Bond movie since Connery.

 

I knew about the Brosnan casting ordeal, but that was only part of the shit that went on as far as Dalton being cast. Before his first movie came out there were already people claiming he was going to be replaced as Bond. He actually sued a British tabloid and won over it.

[Guest JDMattitudeV1]

Licence to Kill is my favourite Bond film. Dalton as a vengeful, sadistic bastard makes it so. I liked the early Connery films especially Goldfinger and Thunderball. I don't mind the newer Brosnan movies but they just seem to be all gadgets and no substance. The Roger Moore films in the 1970's are by far the worst of the series, just thinking about Moonraker makes shudder.

[Guest Mole]

All I gotta say is that I don't like Bond movie's for all of the reasons it "appeals" to my generation.

 

When Bond does stuff that CAN'T happen in real life, and how he gets away with EVERYTHING. You know he will never die, and will always save the world. I will never see another Bond, nor do I want to.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

All I gotta say is that I don't like Bond movie's for all of the reasons it "appeals" to my generation.

 

When Bond does stuff that CAN'T happen in real life, and how he gets away with EVERYTHING. You know he will never die, and will always save the world. I will never see another Bond, nor do I want to.

That last complaint is retarded.

 

Of course he won't die, of course he'll save the world. This is escapism.

 

Just like, 9 times out of 10 Sherlock Holmes will solve the mystery.

 

Just like The Enterprise will always fix the gadget JUST IN THE NICK OF TIME.

 

Just like the people never seem to get off Gilligan's Island.

 

Just like Gerard couldn't cacth Kimble till he solved his wide's murder.

 

Just like every comic book EVER MADE.

 

Just like in fucking Gangs of New York when you could read half the plot "twists" a mile away.

 

 

The isn't that he saves us all, it's HOW HE DOES IT.

[Guest Mole]

I don't care HOW he does it. All I know is that he does win, and I'm sick of it.

 

That is why I refuse to see romatic comedies. They are all the same basic, predictable shit.

 

Bond will never die, and it is getting very old.

 

You love Bond, and that is cool. I'm not bashing you, I just don't like the idea of how it goes on.

[Guest WrestlingDeacon]

Molestomp, what do you like then? Because as Zsasz was pointing out everything follows certain lines that you know going in. 9 times out of 10 the hero isn't going to die and the day will be saved. Even shit that people think was so great an innovative like the Matrix, I figured out about ten minutes in by being a writer myself and having seen so many other sci-fi and kung fu films that it was taking off of. There is no new way to do anything, it's all how you do it.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I don't care HOW he does it. All I know is that he does win, and I'm sick of it.

 

That is why I refuse to see romatic comedies. They are all the same basic, predictable shit.

 

Bond will never die, and it is getting very old.

Well, have fun NOT seeing/reading 90% of all fictional books and movies. And 100% of the non-fiction since you always know how that will turn out.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I've been watching all the Bond movies lately since I hadn't seen 90% of them until now. So far From Russia With Love is the only I've liked. The rest have all been pure garbage. Some of the worst movies I've ever seen with some of the worst, most over the top bullshit that mankind has ever dreamed up. I mean, good lord, three nippled people? A mini-airplane hidden inside a fake horse ass?? People wanna talk about how stupid, over the top, corny and everything that Batman and Robin is and that's all true. But come on, nearly every single Bond movie I've seen has been just as retarded as Batman and Robin but yet they make 20 of them.

Pure Garbage? That's just stupid:

 

Goldfinger: One of the best popcorn movies EVER, containing one of the most reognizable scenes in film history. (Laser)

 

On Her Majesty's Secret Service: Very down-to-Earth Bond film where Bond goes after Blofeld in the Swiss Alps. If you liked FRWL, you should like this one.

 

For Your Eyes Only: The best of the Roger Moore films. It contains no camp, little cliche, and a lot of really good action. All-in-all a very fun movie.

 

The Living Daylights: This is really good spy cinema, not just Bond. Bond tracks a KGB defector and uncovers a secret alliance with an American Arms Dealer.

 

License to Kill: The most serious of the Bond films. James resigns from MI6 and goes after Franz Sanchez, a drug kingpin who tried to kill Felix Leiter.

 

 

 

Having read your post I must say that for every one of the outlandish moments you described, there are many moments of genuine suspense in the Bond films. Maybe should try to have FUN while watching them, instead of being uptight.

[Guest Pigsy]

5. Bond doesn't give out his real name.

 

That always bugs me. He's supposed to be a top secret agent, and yet every film he gives out his real name. Just once I'd like to hear him say "Jones. Dave Jones".

[Guest Mole]

You are loosing the whole point. Yes, I know everything is predictable.

 

But one thing I know FOR A FACT is that Bond will NEVER EVER DIE. So I won't see the movies, for that reason.

 

I just don't like Bond, can't you fellas except that?

[Guest WrestlingDeacon]

About the only time I can remember Bond not using his real name was in View to a Kill. At the horse show he was Sygin Smythe. Although he introduces himself to Tanya Roberts as James Sygin Smythe.

[Guest Lethargic]

Pure Garbage? That's just stupid:

 

Goldfinger: One of the best popcorn movies EVER, containing one of the most reognizable scenes in film history. (Laser)

 

On Her Majesty's Secret Service: Very down-to-Earth Bond film where Bond goes after Blofeld in the Swiss Alps. If you liked FRWL, you should like this one.

 

For Your Eyes Only: The best of the Roger Moore films. It contains no camp, little cliche, and a lot of really good action. All-in-all a very fun movie.

 

The Living Daylights: This is really good spy cinema, not just Bond. Bond tracks a KGB defector and uncovers a secret alliance with an American Arms Dealer.

 

License to Kill: The most serious of the Bond films. James resigns from MI6 and goes after Franz Sanchez, a drug kingpin who tried to kill Felix Leiter.

 

 

 

Having read your post I must say that for every one of the outlandish moments you described, there are many moments of genuine suspense in the Bond films. Maybe should try to have FUN while watching them, instead of being uptight.

The only ones I've seen of those are Goldfinger and License to Kill. Goldfinger was OK, not very good but it didn't suck on the level of Man with the Golden Gun or Octopussy, or hell, any of the Moore ones I've seen so far. License to Kill was just another 80's action piece of crap using the same old latin drug kingpin storyline from all those other 80's action crapfests. That was a terrible movie. A very LONG terrible movie. That movie felt 5 hours long and my eyes were watering through most of it. The lighten up advice is comical, I'm the most lightened up movie fan around. I don't need every movie to be a classic. I just want to have fun and be entertained. If it entertains me because it's stupid, good, bad, silly, smart, whatever the reasons....I just want to have fun for 2 hours. There has been nothing fun about these movies at all except for making fun of them afterwards. From Russia With Love has been the only decent spy movie I've seen so far as it didn't seem to be so friggin retarded as the rest. I haven't seen any suspense in any of the others so far. Hell, give me Flint over Bond.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

About the only time I can remember Bond not using his real name was in View to a Kill. At the horse show he was Sygin Smythe. Although he introduces himself to Tanya Roberts as James Sygin Smythe.

*Ahem*

 

That's James ST. JOHN Symthe. Moore's accent leads to the "Syngen" sound. But his ID reads James St. John Smythe.

 

Bond impersonated Sir Edmund Hillary in OHMSS, he pretended to be a generic business man in FRWL. He's done it a few times, but all too often he just gives his real name away.