Israel's Broke

[Guest bob_barron]

They should've killed Arafat when they had the chance

[Guest Anglesault]

I really think Israel should give up Jerusalem and 45% of the land. Then Israel still has more than enough land, and it has the very strong city of Tel Aviv.

The Jews want Jerusalem too. How do you just give it away? Isn't that an enormous sticking point here?

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Because they lived on the land since the Romans kicked the Jews out. They've lived much longer than the Jews have there. A small piece was only given to Israel to provent the Holocaust from ever happening again.

 

It's their land, plain and simple.

Three wars since then have changed that drastically. Israel fought off Egypt and Seria and Jordan and whoever the hell else and won. To the victors go the spoils, to the Israelis go the land. t's no longer the Arab's lands. They lost it.

Well the I guess it was okay for Saddam to take Kuwait over, right?

 

That may well be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. By accepting that, you open a Pandora's box of diplomacy that I don't even want to think about.

[Guest MrRant]

I don't think Jeruselem will go to Palenstine because it is important to Christians as well. And Jews are probably considered the lesser of two evils in a manner of speaking.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

 

I really think Israel should give up Jerusalem and 45% of the land. Then Israel still has more than enough land, and it has the very strong city of Tel Aviv.

The Jews want Jerusalem too. How do you just give it away? Isn't that an enormous sticking point here?

Which is why if they give it up, they would be in a much better position to dictate the terms of how the land is split up. Because they were willing to make that sacrifice, (which is only symbolic anyway, the country is run in Tel Aviv) the PLO would lose all of it's bargaining power because it would look bad to the worldwide community. Right now, the European press loves the Palestinians, almost pirtraying it as... *ahem* David and Goliath. With unprecedented cooperation, Israel could disspell any critics.

 

 

See, how it works AS?

[Guest Anglesault]

Because they lived on the land since the Romans kicked the Jews out. They've lived much longer than the Jews have there. A small piece was only given to Israel to provent the Holocaust from ever happening again.

 

It's their land, plain and simple.

Three wars since then have changed that drastically. Israel fought off Egypt and Seria and Jordan and whoever the hell else and won. To the victors go the spoils, to the Israelis go the land. t's no longer the Arab's lands. They lost it.

Well the I guess it was okay for Saddam to take Kuwait over, right?

Saddam was aggressive in taking over Kuwait. The Israelis were defending themselves.

 

If you are attacked, and you win the war, you shouldn't keep your land?

[Guest Powerplay]

I think that if Arafat would have accepted that fucking treaty that gave him 90 someting percent of what he wanted, that would help as well.

I think the 90% figure is a gross exaggeration, but I digress.

 

 

There have been many situations where the either the Israelis or Palestinians made an attempt at peace and the other side rejected.

 

 

Undertsand that most of the land being offered is worthless desert, when what the Palestinians were promised includes Jerusalem.

 

I really think Israel should give up Jerusalem and 45% of the land. Then Israel still has more than enough land, and it has the very strong city of Tel Aviv.

 

Sharon has NEVER offered the PLO an treaty. EVER. He wants them all dead.

Barak offered an INCREDIBLY nice package (INCLUDING parts of Jeruselum) to Arafat. It was almost as benevolent as the 1948 treaty lines (Which the Arabs screwed themselves out of, thank you very much), and Arafat turned it down. Arafat wouldn't come back to the table, and soon after Barak was gone and Sharon was in. Arafat missed the chance, and that was HIS fault. Barak wanted peace, Arafat doesn't.

 

Don't you people stop and think, "What kind of treatment makes a person think, 'Hey, death isn't so bad?'" Has it ever ocurred to you that maybe if the Israelis had lived up to their end of the bargain, and given the Palestinians self-rule, there would a dramatic decrease in these attacks?

 

It's not the conditions, Zsaz, it's the religion that asks for such martyrdom.

 

...'Cause they happen to be in the region and not Islamic?

 

Personally, I would like to take each Israeli and exile them to random areas of the western world, then return their territory to the Arabs. Seriously... the Holocaust is long dead and the Israelis are the center of Middle Eastern hatred.

 

Wow. The sheer racism behind that opinion is scary. Why do the Arabs get the land? It's just as much the home of the Israelis as it is the Arabs. Again, the Arabs screwed themselves over in 1948, and that's the cause behind their hatred. All the Israelis did was not buckle under the Arab tide, and they've been there for over 50 years. That's the cause of the hatred. The Holocaust is gone. That's your argument for why Israel shouldn't exist? That's like saying "The Revolution's over, man. The United States doesn't need to be around no more."

 

As far as I'm concerned the Isreali Army are the real cowards. They must find it tough to fight off those kids with stones. Oh wait... I forgot... they have tanks!

 

Why the hell would you throw rocks at TANKS? Does anyone see a logic gap there? Zsaz, the Israeli military is one of the finest fighting forces on the face of the earth. They could smoke a lot more countries than you know.

[Guest Anglesault]

 

I really think Israel should give up Jerusalem and 45% of the land. Then Israel still has more than enough land, and it has the very strong city of Tel Aviv.

The Jews want Jerusalem too. How do you just give it away? Isn't that an enormous sticking point here?

Which is why if they give it up, they would be in a much better position to dictate the terms of how the land is split up. Because they were willing to make that sacrifice, (which is only symbolic anyway, the country is run in Tel Aviv) the PLO would lose all of it's bargaining power because it would look bad to the worldwide community. Right now, the European press loves the Palestinians, almost pirtraying it as... *ahem* David and Goliath. With unprecedented cooperation, Israel could disspell any critics.

 

 

See, how it works AS?

Sure it could work. And I would like to see it, if only to see anti-Semetic Europe react to that.

 

Do I think it will happen? No.

 

Do i think it honestly should? No. I don't want the precedent to be set that blowing yourself up and killing civilians will get you whatever you want.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

 

I really think Israel should give up Jerusalem and 45% of the land. Then Israel still has more than enough land, and it has the very strong city of Tel Aviv.

The Jews want Jerusalem too. How do you just give it away? Isn't that an enormous sticking point here?

Which is why if they give it up, they would be in a much better position to dictate the terms of how the land is split up. Because they were willing to make that sacrifice, (which is only symbolic anyway, the country is run in Tel Aviv) the PLO would lose all of it's bargaining power because it would look bad to the worldwide community. Right now, the European press loves the Palestinians, almost pirtraying it as... *ahem* David and Goliath. With unprecedented cooperation, Israel could disspell any critics.

 

 

See, how it works AS?

Sure it could work. And I would like to see it, if only to see anti-Semetic Europe react to that.

 

Do I think it will happen? No.

 

Do i think it honestly should? No. I don't want the precedent to be set that blowing yourself up and killing civilians will get you whatever you want.

So all Palestinians should pay for the actions of a few?

 

You guys are the most judgemental bunch of people I've ever met.

[Guest Anglesault]

 

I really think Israel should give up Jerusalem and 45% of the land. Then Israel still has more than enough land, and it has the very strong city of Tel Aviv.

The Jews want Jerusalem too. How do you just give it away? Isn't that an enormous sticking point here?

Which is why if they give it up, they would be in a much better position to dictate the terms of how the land is split up. Because they were willing to make that sacrifice, (which is only symbolic anyway, the country is run in Tel Aviv) the PLO would lose all of it's bargaining power because it would look bad to the worldwide community. Right now, the European press loves the Palestinians, almost pirtraying it as... *ahem* David and Goliath. With unprecedented cooperation, Israel could disspell any critics.

 

 

See, how it works AS?

Sure it could work. And I would like to see it, if only to see anti-Semetic Europe react to that.

 

Do I think it will happen? No.

 

Do i think it honestly should? No. I don't want the precedent to be set that blowing yourself up and killing civilians will get you whatever you want.

So all Palestinians should pay for the actions of a few?

 

You guys are the most judgemental bunch of people I've ever met.

You don't think that if the Jews cave into the bombings, other people around the world will bombing thinking that's the way to get thing done?

 

If the Palestinians were just a pain in the ass to the Jews and they got that treaty, okay. But as long as they are using these tactics, the Israel should not cave in.

[Guest Powerplay]

Seriously... the Holocaust is long dead and the Israelis are the center of Middle Eastern hatred

 

So we should punish them for being Jewish?

No... for the Israelis taking and possessing land that belonged to the Palestinians and they themselves don't need.

Why don't they need it?! They LIVE THERE. If I evicted you from your house because "your neighbors want you out because you're Jewish", what would YOU say?

 

And it's just as much theirs as it is the Arabs. Both people can live there, but the Arabs have shot themselves in the foot over and over with failed invasions and terrorism against the Israelis.

[Guest Powerplay]

You guys are the most judgemental bunch of people I've ever met.

Yes, because, lord knows, we actually support the Israelis defending their country against hostile terrorists. Because, Christ, the Israeli army is a bunch of bullies who have no other reason to be in existance other than to bully some kids who find it a 'cool' idea to throw rocks at tanks. Because, man, the Israelis should feel no paranoia to people who have invaded them 3 times without warning, have constantly declared Holy Wars on them because they are just 'there', and almost daily attack them with human bombs and gunman. Why didn't I see this before?

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

I know why the IDF there, and since they've beefed up there's been quite a lull in the bombings. And I can understand that if you just watched a best friend die in a nightclub or whatever, you'd be rather trigger-happy too. That probably says something more about mandatory service, but I'll stop dwelling on that.

 

The problem isn't really the army but the government controlling it. They are creating conditions which encourage such awful behavior. I know they haven't always been like that, though. The conditions are why they're doing this. I think it's a bad strategy, clearly, but it's true.

 

I still think we should not give them military aid, due to their habit of selling our weapons to the Chinese. For example, the Patriot missile and the Lavi fighter jet, which is basically a copy of our own F-16.

[Guest Powerplay]

Why don't they need it?! They LIVE THERE. If I evicted you from your house because "your neighbors want you out because you're Jewish", what would YOU say?

What if I kicked my neighbors out of the house first-off and the police was on my side when the neighbors made threats toward me?

 

I'd like to hear how you think this anti-western terrorism is going to actually end.

How much of history do you actually know? The Israelis didn't 'kick' out the Palestinians. There was supposed to be two seperate countries when the plan was proposed in 1948. The Arab nations denied the existance of Israel and invaded, and got their asses kicked. After this we have 3 other, seperate invasions in an attempt to take them back and eliminate Israel as a country, all failed. Is this the Israelis fault? No. They have just as much of a right to be there as the Arab countries.

 

Eliminating Israel is not a solution. It only creates more problems. It only gives a precedent to "Hey, if we don't like your country existing, we can just attack it 'til you are deemed the cause of all problems and are kicked out of the region."

[Guest Anglesault]

I'd like to hear how you think this anti-western terrorism is going to actually end.

When someone physically forces them to leave the 13th century behind and join us in 2003. Be it by war or what have you. I thnk we can start by westernizing as many countries as we can. If we can somehow bring it to the point where Terrorism will lead to a huge backlash within their own people, we might have it.

[Guest MrRant]

::Takes this time to pimp the Social Studies folder at ViewedAskew.com (sig) for these type of historical debates::

 

Going by some of the arguments here... then Germany should try and reclaim some of its previous territory.

[Guest Powerplay]

Yes... those plans got passed along by a UN vote. Well, I'm supposed to know my history... so how about you help out and say whether the Arabs (esp. the Palestinians) had any say in the plan for two separate states or not, or if they did have say but didn't really want it.

Did you see the plans for it? Palestine got a major portion of today's Israel. It wasn't that the Arabs felt that they were getting screwed for land, they didn't believe that Israel should EXIST.

[Guest MD2020]

Because they lived on the land since the Romans kicked the Jews out.

 

So, the Jews were there first. And then the Jews got this crazy idea of having their own country--you know, so other countries would stop killing them--and it was decided they could go back to their homeland.

 

Oh yeah--now it makes perfect sense. I guess we should kick them out of there--it's the only way their learn.

[Guest MD2020]

Oh, BTW, kkk--love the avatar and the title. Justice for Danny Faulkner.

[Guest whatitistoburn]

Not sure if this is relevant or not, but I just saw on the tv that the Israelies troops are joining us in Iraq.

 

Wonder if it has anythign to do with the money we gave them?

[Guest MrRant]

I don't think that is a good idea. I think we would have been better off in Arab eyes going in WITHOUT Israel.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Can they afford it?

 

If this is true (haven't heard it anywhere), it's totally political posturing.

[Guest Kingpk]

I thought Israel would only get into this if they were attacked by Iraqi Scuds again? I remember hearing some officials say "this is not our war."

[Guest DrTom]

1. On two seperate occaisions, Israel attempted to streal atomic secrets from American scientists. Are those the actions of an ally?

No, but they ARE the actions of a tiny country surrounded by a billion or so people who would like nothing better than to wipe them off the map. Considering that Israel's had the nuke for some time and hasn't fired it at everyone who's pissed them off, I don't think we have to worry about them being some renegade nation with dangerous technology.

 

2. Israeli nationals have mistreated the Palestinans who live there since the birth of their state, when some people here act like they've been fighting the good fight... it makes me sick quite frankly.

You'll forgive me if I have no sympathy for a group of people who think that mass homicide is the only way to accomplish something. Palestinians have even rigged secondary explosives on some of their homicide bombers, specifically to take out the *medical and rescue* workers who will arrive. Those are inhuman actions.

 

BTW, "homicide bombing" is a much more accurate term than "suicide bombing." To paraphrase Secretary Rumsfeld, there are plenty of ways to kill yourself which don't involve strapping explosives to your chest and taking two dozen people with you.

 

3. We've been aid to Israel since the 70's, and now they're in the middle of an economic depression. maybe if they could pull their heads out of their asses, get a settlement with the PLO down, and stop having to waste money, then maybe they'd have a balanaced budget.

They've TRIED. Arafat has been offered several land-for-peace deals (wherein the land was a lot more than just "worthless desert"), and has walked away from the table each time. Fuck him. He's nothing but a worthless thug and a terrorist who's the puppet of every brutal Moslem regime in the area. Israel should have killed him when they had the chance, and I wouldn't blame them for finally getting tired of the terror campaigns and wiping his people out along with him. Call me judgmental if you want, since I consider it a virtue.

 

As far as I'm concerned the Isreali Army are the real cowards.

Self-defense and retaliatory strikes against persistent terrorism do not equate to cowardice. If the Palestinians wish not to be squashed by tanks, perhaps they should stop their homicide bombings and negotiate in good faith.

 

I say give them double whatever they need. They're our only reliably ally in a region that basically despises us, and considering the might of their military, they're a valuable ally to have.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

Jerusalem should be a holy city like Mecca and the Vatican that isn't politically attached to anywhere. The Israelis and Palestinians claiming it as their capitals is stupid. Israel's capital should be Tel Aviv, Palestine's Ramallah or somewhere else in the West Bank.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Sure it could work. And I would like to see it, if only to see anti-Semetic Europe react to that.

See, there will always be certain people in the region who hate them, but that's what happens when you have a consolation-prize country in a part of the world that fucking hates you.

 

The Palestinians are not allowed anything in the way of economy.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Yes... those plans got passed along by a UN vote. Well, I'm supposed to know my history... so how about you help out and say whether the Arabs (esp. the Palestinians) had any say in the plan for two separate states or not, or if they did have say but didn't really want it.

Did you see the plans for it? Palestine got a major portion of today's Israel. It wasn't that the Arabs felt that they were getting screwed for land, they didn't believe that Israel should EXIST.

I'm sure this is true for some Palestinians, as well as some of the more extreme elements in the region. However, I think that most moderate Arabs would be willing to recognize Israel, provided it was a better neighbor and made a genuine effort to resolve the Palestinian question.

 

This constant fighting has worn both sides down. I think most sober people recognize that Israel isn't going anywhere soon, but, for that matter, neither is Palestine or Jordan or Syria. To say, "Well, they're going try and drive us off the map so we shouldn't do anything to encourage them to think otherwise" is simply a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Guest Slapnuts00]

I'm sure this is true for some Palestinians, as well as some of the more extreme elements in the region. However, I think that most moderate Arabs would be willing to recognize Israel, provided it was a better neighbor and made a genuine effort to resolve the Palestinian question.

 

This constant fighting has worn both sides down. I think most sober people recognize that Israel isn't going anywhere soon, but, for that matter, neither is Palestine or Jordan or Syria. To say, "Well, they're going try and drive us off the map so we shouldn't do anything to encourage them to think otherwise" is simply a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You would THINK that but there is deep rooted anti-Semitism and anti-Westernism ingrained throughout the region and that DOES include the majority of regular people. This is mostly because of their education. They only know what their government tells them, and they've been told that Israel and the US are evil and that they should want to destroy them.

My opinion is that Israel is an extremely valuable ally. They're the only democracy in the region, and we should support them. It should not be held against them that the Palestinians won't stop blowing people up in name of "jihad". The Israeli army can not effectively do it's job of capturing "the bad guys" if "innocents" stand in their way and throws rocks (or in actually things like grenades) at them. Israel wants peace, the Arab world wants Israel gone. There's no way around it...

[Guest B-X]

Having Sharon in office is certainly not helping matters. The fact is that four times as many suicide bombings--around 80--have occurred since Ariel Sharon became Prime Minister than in the seven previous years combined--around 20. It is a routine policy for Hamas and Islamic Jihad to react to any civilian killings and/or assinations with more suicide bombings.

 

And also, you want justice for Danny Faulkner? Do something about Arnold Beverly, who CONFESSED to killing Faulkner that night in 81.

[Guest The Hamburglar]

They shouldn't receive any aid until they get Sharon out of power. He's an odious criminal shit, and incites violence in the area in order to further his own political needs.

 

Anyways, to my mind surely the current Iraqi conflict is all about the US trying to reshape their influence in the Middle East? Obviously the whole oil argument is bollocks, so I can only assume that the point of the operation is to build a more effective pro-US powerbase in the area. Way I see it, although this Iraq war is a risk, if it pays off the US could have a friendly Iraqi government, which in turn could kick-start revolution in Iran, resulting in another non-belligerent democratic Middle Eastern country. If the US can end up with allies of the size of Iran and Iraq, they can cease funding the real enemies - Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan, while simultaneously not having to rely so much on Israeli friendship. Not having to rely on Israeli friendship = not having to spend so much money on supporting Israel and the leeway to push harder for a decent peace settlement with Palestine. In the long-term, it could all work out well.