Michael Moore: Asshat or patriot?

[Guest cartman]

Today at work, I was arguing with this guy(he's about as conservative, right-wing as ya get) and I ended up asking him what the exact definition in HIS mind of a conservative was...

 

His response: "I don't know and I dont really care"

 

That about sums up why I think most of you Pro-War, Pro-Bush, Pro-Murder conservatives are nopthing but Lemmings that will believe anything abd everything that our government and our media tells us.

 

Why is it that the rest of the World's media has a different story to tell about us Americans than we do? Because alot of things we like to portray ourselves as is nothing but a farce. Americans have grown to have this superiority complex that somehow makes us believe that we are better than everyone else. Fact is we really arent. Seriously.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

How can anyone ever put faith or belief in "Polls"? There is no way that EVERYONE in this country can have a say in each poll we see on TV and in Newspapers. Save the fucking statistics for the MLB. If you wanna have some kind of polls include it in the mandatory Census.

Well, for 8 years, we had Presidential policy dictated by polls, so people DO buy them.

 

I, honestly, have little faith in polls. One of the first things I learned in my poli. sci classes was how easily manipulating the questions can skew the results:

 

Pollster: "Do you like fluffy bunnies?"

 

Anonymous Individual: "Yes."

 

P: "Do you want to see THIS fluffy bunny killed with this rusty fork?"

 

A.I: "No."

 

P: "Ah, PRO animal rights. Got it. That's an astonishing 98.9% of the population that is fervently FOR animal rights"

 

And, just so you know, the census is about as mandatory as your income taxes are voluntary.

-=Mike --- yes, an extreme example.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

You have little faith in them, and then you go and use them as proof that everyone supports the war?

 

Hah.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Today at work, I was arguing with this guy(he's about as conservative, right-wing as ya get) and I ended up asking him what the exact definition in HIS mind of a conservative was...

 

His response: "I don't know and I dont really care"

 

That about sums up why I think most of you Pro-War, Pro-Bush, Pro-Murder conservatives are nopthing but Lemmings that will believe anything abd everything that our government and our media tells us.

 

Why is it that the rest of the World's media has a different story to tell about us Americans than we do? Because alot of things we like to portray ourselves as is nothing but a farce. Americans have grown to have this superiority complex that somehow makes us believe that we are better than everyone else. Fact is we really arent. Seriously.

You know, I had the SAME discussion with a liberal and, shockingly, got the same response.

 

Creepy, huh?

 

I love the left-wing notion that NOBODY could POSSIBLY think differently than they without being spoon-fed their beliefs.

 

Why does the rest of the world's media think differently about us? If you don't mind me asking, why in the bloody heck should WE care? If the Arab press or the European press just HATES us, how in the world does that impact ME in any way, shape, or form?

 

For somebody bashing conservatives for being "lemmings", you do put an AWFUL lot of stock in what other people think of us.

 

Kind of ironic, don't you think?

 

We are more free than anybody else. WE give more than anybody else. We protect more people than anybody else. We have more power than anybody has EVER had and we abuse our power the least.

 

Hearing France complain about our "imperialism" will ALWAYS make me laugh.

-=Mike

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Tsk tsk.

 

TheMikeSC Doctrine:

 

"THE WHOLE WORLD OWES US SO I DON'T CARE WHAT THEY SAY NAH NAH NAH I'M NOT LISTENING WE'RE CRUSADERS FROM GOD I LOVE BUSH"

 

This is stupid. Of course it matters what the rest of the fucking world says about us; if we want to be considered the good guys, we can't BUY our way out of our problems. We give money? Damn, we're nice. We also show imperialistic qualities with these interventions. Is there a greater good behind it? Sure. Nobody's arguing that. But then again, it's not going to stop in Iraq and everyone knows that; we're gonna push our agenda through the world just like we pushed it through the UN and held them hostage by saying we're going to war no matter what (and ironically, still going to a vote... as if the vote mattered).

[Guest cartman]

Actually I could give a rats ass what other people think/say. I just like to point out that other people actually agree with MY personal beliefs. There are people on both sides of this argument that can be considered Lemmings for just blindly following what other people tell them. I'm not one of them. i have my own opinion that differs with many people, and agrees with many others. There is no right and wrong here it's just a matter of opinions. Actually, there IS a right and wrong but we will never really know just who was right and who was wrong because like everything else that we dont know about, it will be covered up and made to look whatever way they want it to look. That's the way our government works. Whether you believe in our government or not is your choice. I personally do NOT believe in my government for the same reasons I dumped many ex girlfriends. They lied to me, and/or cheated on me. Plain and simple.

[Guest bob_barron]

None of us are pro-war

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Actually I could give a rats ass what other people think/say. I just like to point out that other people actually agree with MY personal beliefs. There are people on both sides of this argument that can be considered Lemmings for just blindly following what other people tell them. I'm not one of them. i have my own opinion that differs with many people, and agrees with many others. There is no right and wrong here it's just a matter of opinions. Actually, there IS a right and wrong but we will never really know just who was right and who was wrong because like everything else that we dont know about, it will be covered up and made to look whatever way they want it to look. That's the way our government works. Whether you believe in our government or not is your choice. I personally do NOT believe in my government for the same reasons I dumped many ex girlfriends. They lied to me, and/or cheated on me. Plain and simple.

Ah, YOU aren't a lemming -- but MOST of us who are "pro-war" ARE lemmings? Got it. Love that consistency.

 

If you honestly don't care what others think, why mention it? You're using the fact that the European press dislikes the war as some kind of defense for your opinion, which shows a remarkable lack of faith in your own opinions.

 

BTW, you claim OUR government lies a lot.

 

Yet you believe the European press?

 

God knows THEY never lie, right?

-=Mike --- you've argued yourself into a corner

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Hey Mike, wanna stop being a wuss and address the topic at hand?

[Guest cartman]

Please point put the line where I mentioned the European Press.

 

I stated that other countries are also just as against this government and our leaders as I am. Never once did I specify Europe.

 

Although, I have to say YES I do believe a non-biased media when they talk about America.

[Guest NoCalMike]

As far as other issues being up. Well that depends. WHen we win this war with Iraq, is it overwith or will the "Iran/Syria are evil and need a regime change" drum start beating? Go read the PNAC thing and it will make you tend to thing Iraq is just the first step. If there is no war or sense of war in the air, then as far as the homefront goes, our country is not really in better shape than before Bush took office, so I'd have to say his handling of the economy and domestic issues have been pretty much a failure. I mean what is he gonna say at the debates, "Umm I took out the Iraq regime, and if you re-elect me, Iran and Syria are next" ?

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Dammit, Cartman! You're ensuring he'll continually no-sell me!

 

Meh... Screw you guys, I'm goin' home!

[Guest bob_barron]

Remember Tyler- I still love you.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

 

At least one of you does!

[Guest Vern Gagne]

...because Mike said so!

 

Instead of stating absolutes without facts, please back up your claims of WIDE SUPPORT and everything.

 

I don't see Americans (or even Iraqis, who are the ones being fucking FREED) dancing in the streets holding up signs that say "WE <3 U BUSH!!!1!111!! GO BOMB IRAQ!!!!!!!!!!!" or anything. Widely supported? Perhaps TOLERATED by most and agreed on in principle, but widely supported is a gross overstatement.

So are polls ever accurate? Seriously, would you feel this way if polls showed that the American people weren't supporting this war.

 

I'll answer my own question. I was pleasantly suprised when polls in the New York Times, not exactly pro-war, continue to hover around 70%. I would of been upset if the numbers where similiar to what they where before the war. One reason I think there was a change in the numbers, is most people stand behind their country in a time of war, or national tradegy.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

The whole point is that on the one hand, you say polls don't mean anything... and then you use them as a PH test to determine the extent of the nation's support for the war. I don't understand how it can be so polar that it only matters when the statistics can be used to your favor.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

I never said polls are the determing factor or that I'm supporting this because of the polls. I'm only pointing out that the polls are showing support for military action.

 

I brought up the polls because Micheal Moore said most people agree with him. Even if the numbers aren't as high, it's pretty absurd for Moore to think most agree with him.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

I was more referring to Mike than you with that comment, but it's not an atypical response by most people.

 

The truth is that the nation is quite split on the issue. I sincerely doubt there's a mandate on either side.

[Guest NoCalMike]

Another problem is, the average person you ask about the war that is not into politics persay, is not going to have much insight. If you ask them about it, they typically only know what CNN or FoxNews tells them which is pretty much, "US is close Baghdad, and is dropping bombs" That is the extent of the coverage, with a hostage rescue here, and a Saddam video there.

[Guest Powerplay]

Please point put the line where I mentioned the European Press.

 

I stated that other countries are also just as against this government and our leaders as I am. Never once did I specify Europe.

 

Although, I have to say YES I do believe a non-biased media when they talk about America.

Because God KNOWS that Al-Jazzera is an 'unbiased' news network. In actuality, that's probably one of the stupidest statements said on the board. Tyler, NoCal, or Robbie should just slap you to fuck for making their arguments seem that much worse. There ISN'T an unbiased press. It's an impossibility. All press is biased, and just because they critize the U.S. doesn't mean they are any more unbiased to us than CNN. You don't think there are news agencies over there that are like Fox News? Foreign Press is no better than the New York Times or the Washington Post, and I'd go with the latter two either day.

 

Cartman, YOU are the people who give the Anti-War effort a bad name. There are logical people (NoCal, Tyler, JotW, Robbie), and then there's people like you who constantly put forth opinions without any logical basis outside of "REPUBLICANZ R TEH EVILZ~! LIBURALZ R TEH ROQ~!". You are the horribly feverent college liberal that forced me away from the left and towards the right. YOU are the type of person that would stage something like a "Die-in" or claim that Bush is purposefully targetting Civilians or some other far-left idiocrisy.

 

Pro-War? I fucking had this argument with Tyler over PMs, and you know what? We found out that I'm not Pro-War and that he's not Pro-Iraqi Dictatorship. I don't want a fucking war, but that's the only way I see possible to unseat a tyrannical dictator. Tyler doesn't like Saddam anymore that I do, but he would rather see some peaceful resolution in some way rather than this war. We settled it with facts and in the end we shook hands and laughed at it. I couldn't possibly do that with someone like you, who only spouts whatever propaganda he gets from the local extremist at hand and fails to bring anything to the actual argument.

 

Sorry there, had to vent there. Onto the actual debate:

 

The polls say 70%. I suppose you could still take away 10 or 15% and still say you have a mandate, since you'd still have 10% majority of the people there, but it depends on your definition of mandate I suppose. Though you would have to admit that Vern is right when he says the polls do disprove Michael Moore's belief that the public share his views on the war.

[Guest Crazy Dan]

I am sure in places like San Francisco and Berkeley and other more liberal towns like that, a large majority would share Michael Moore's opinion. But if you were to go to a place like Texas, they would favor stringing Michael Moore up in a tree. It trully depends upon the area you are polling. Also, when you have such a strong over-whelming of a third rate army, yes opinion will be stongly in favor. When a war drags on and on, like Vietnam, you would see the favorable support drop drastically.

[Guest cartman]

First off those morons that stage these protests and "Die-Ins" are the real stupidity in this country. Like they are making a difference in the way anyone thinks about anything, please. Go back to work...er...class.

 

I don't think republicans are evil, democrats are just as bad. A politician is a politician, they are the greatest bullshit artists the world knows, like lawyers.

 

Again I never specified Al-jazeera in my statements because of course they are biased, they are the ones involved in the middle of this skirmish. Fact is still that Americans have this superiority complex that clouds their minds and prevents them from understanding the truth about many facets of real life. It's rediculous to listen to 99% of people calling up the radio shows I listen to everyday and say, "Oh these anti-war people are such uninformed jackasses, we got thousands of troops over there fighting for our freedom." OUR freedom they say. What the hell kind of moron actually believes that Iraq and their shit military would ever pose any threat to Americans and their "Freedom"? What cause they make Weapons of Mass Destruction? I havent seen them yet, and by the way don't we make those too? oh that's right, we made them and sold them to Saddam and Bin Laden to help serve OUR cause years ago. Now it comes back to supposedly pose a threat to us and bite us in our perverbial asses right?

 

Oh yea but we deny that because god forbid we look bad by actually being the supplier to our supposed "Threat to American freedom". If anyone thinks that there will ever be a weapon of mass destruction unleashed on Americans here in the US, like a chemical weapon or a nuke, then your just fuckin insane. The funny thing is, the way we all think, being superior to everyone else in the world, you would think that we wouldnt be so scared of someone attacking us. Don't dare go bringin up 9/11 as a mass destruction attack either because 3000 people hardly makes for a devastating threat to the freedom we have.

 

There is never going to be an end to terrorism no matter how many countries we blow up and take over, terrorism exists because of extremist religion driven maniacs. We have them in America, some are Americans. They exist all over the world, and they always will. Why? Because their God told them to do it. What a world we live in.

 

Ever once think that maybe we have too many freedoms in America? I certainly do. To think that we Americans are better than any other group of people or any other country is just retarded.

[Guest Crazy Dan]

Very good points Cartman. Just one one other little tidbits about terrorism. Before 9/11, the biggest terrorist attack on US soil was done by Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma. And if my eyes decieve me, he didn't look like he was from the Middle East. Danger comes from many faucets in this world. And in the case of 9/11 those facets came mainly from our "ally" Saudi Arabia.

[Guest Powerplay]

Fact is still that Americans have this superiority complex that clouds their minds and prevents them from understanding the truth about many facets of real life.

If I may ask, what facets of real life are we missing? And to make the argument then, many other countries have superiority complexes. France and Japan are the primary examples of native peoples believing they are at least culturally superior to other people.

 

It's rediculous to listen to 99% of people calling up the radio shows I listen to everyday and say, "Oh these anti-war people are such uninformed jackasses, we got thousands of troops over there fighting for our freedom." OUR freedom they say. What the hell kind of moron actually believes that Iraq and their shit military would ever pose any threat to Americans and their "Freedom"?

 

I've never heard anyone ever claim this was for 'our' freedom. Maybe they said 'their' freedom, meaning the Iraqis, and you interpretted it as them referring to the Peace Protestors. This seems to be a miscomunique of sorts. And we are fighting for 'their' freedom. And considering they have been funding terrorism and have the capability to give them these weapons, they are very much a threat to the civilian population of the United States.

 

What cause they make Weapons of Mass Destruction? I havent seen them yet, and by the way don't we make those too? oh that's right, we made them and sold them to Saddam and Bin Laden to help serve OUR cause years ago. Now it comes back to supposedly pose a threat to us and bite us in our perverbial asses right?

 

Dumbass statement #1. Did we give them a token amount of chemical weapons back in 1983? Yes. Then we can look at the Russians, who have sold them every type of weapon they can possibly make, and the French, who have sold parts to Mirage jets to them. We are trying to correct our wrongs while France and Russia just sit back and deal with these people. Who is trying to take responsibility some responsibility here for their mistakes and who isn't?

 

We never sold chemical weapons or biological weapons to Osama Bin Laden. We gave him some small arms and a few shoulder mounted SAMs to fight off Russians in Afganistan. We didn't do anything besides occupy Saudi Arabia at the request of the Saudi Royal Family, he bitched, and he got exiled for it. We did what now?

 

You know, when you say 'we haven't found any weapons yet', could it be 1) The inspectors have been jerked around, and they've always claimed that they've been jerked around by the Iraqis. And 2) We are in the middle of fighting a war, and eliminating the threat of soldiers right now is on a slightly higher priority than that at the moment? How bout waiting until we start doing our own searches before you start claiming they don't have WMDs.

 

Oh yea but we deny that because god forbid we look bad by actually being the supplier to our supposed "Threat to American freedom". If anyone thinks that there will ever be a weapon of mass destruction unleashed on Americans here in the US, like a chemical weapon or a nuke, then your just fuckin insane. The funny thing is, the way we all think, being superior to everyone else in the world, you would think that we wouldnt be so scared of someone attacking us. Don't dare go bringin up 9/11 as a mass destruction attack either because 3000 people hardly makes for a devastating threat to the freedom we have.

 

Dumbass Statement #2. We deny this? Have we ever said "No, we didn't sell weapons to them"? No.

 

We are the insane ones? You know, if someone told me weeks before 9/11 about what would happen at the WTC and say that it was going to happen soon, I'd call them insane too, I suppose. Do you honestly think that if terrorists ever got their hands on any NBC weapon that they would hesitate to use it on the U.S? That's just naive. These people are beyond logical thought. They only think of the ways they can hurt us and our people, not about the consequences.

 

A pocket nuke (One that could fit into a briefcase) can destroy everything within a mile of ground zero, and it'll spread radiation that much farther. It was said a while back that if someone were to make an attack on a nuclear powerplant that the radioactive cloud would be the size of the state of Pennsylvania. The casualties there will be much more than 3000.

 

And to say the least, I would like to say that you are missing the point that these people DO threaten our freedom: The freedom for us to live a life without fear. Everyone here can attest to the rise in paranoia after 9/11, and the new distrust that we have towards Arabs. I know a lot of people who don't like to go to big cities anymore because they are afraid of a possible terrorist attack occurring. They still will, but they have that fear lingering in their minds now. This is not right at all, and it is because of those terrorists that many people have this paranioa and fear, and that is an infringment upon our freedom.

 

There is never going to be an end to terrorism no matter how many countries we blow up and take over, terrorism exists because of extremist religion driven maniacs. We have them in America, some are Americans. They exist all over the world, and they always will. Why? Because their God told them to do it. What a world we live in.

 

Boo Hoo. It doesn't mean we have to tolerate it in any way, shape, or form. There will always be idiots who kill people, but it doesn't mean we aren't going to let them go because "Meh, there's just gonna be another guy who kills, so why do anything about it?" We have the responisibility to try as hard as we can to keep the peace and make life safer to live today, even though there will be people just like them tomorrow.

 

_____________________________________________________________________________

 

Very good points Cartman. Just one one other little tidbits about terrorism. Before 9/11, the biggest terrorist attack on US soil was done by Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma. And if my eyes decieve me, he didn't look like he was from the Middle East. Danger comes from many faucets in this world. And in the case of 9/11 those facets came mainly from our "ally" Saudi Arabia.

 

We still had the World Trade Center bombing before that, and while not incredibly high with deaths it had the potential to be far more devastating. And if my eyes are correct, they did come from the Middle East. And Arab Terrorists committed far many more attacks on embassies and such which were incredibly deadly as well. Who has been far more active in terrorist activities against us? Islamic Extremists. The point of bringing up Oklahoma City was...?

 

A point in case, while the Saudi's are an... 'ally'... many of those people were exiled from the country anyways and operated from outside of it the whole time. Another point that doesn't really matter.

[Guest cartman]

One thing. I didnt misinterperet anything. I seriously hear it everyday on the Boaton area. WAAF and WEEI callers always say, "Those soldiers are over there fighting for our freedom"

 

I'm not missing anything, this is what frustrates me every morning on the way to work.

[Guest Powerplay]

One thing. I didnt misinterperet anything. I seriously hear it everyday on the Boaton area. WAAF and WEEI callers always say, "Those soldiers are over there fighting for our freedom"

 

I'm not missing anything, this is what frustrates me every morning on the way to work.

In a sense, they are. They are fighting for our Freedom to live a life without fear. I made most of my points about it in the post above. But I suppose I can see your argument here, though I don't really believe in it.

[Guest Crazy Dan]

The point of bringing up Oklahoma City was to show that terrorists can come from any part of the world. In this case many people died because of a terrorist attack, it was the second largest terrorist attack in the US. Timothy McVeigh was the man responsible for this terrible act. And you are right about that a large majority of terrorists coming from Arab countries, but that doesn't hide the fact that terrorists can come from any back ground or country. Regime change in Iraq will not stop the breeding of terrorists in the Middle East.

 

But in Saudi Arabia, the government allows many of it's schools to preach hatred of Isreal and the Western World, mainly the US. So how is Saudi Arabia our so called ally again? Even if the terrorists were expelled from the country, they still learned their hatred in Saudi Arabia. Many of the world's terrorists come from Saudi Arabia. And the only reason we even give a rat's ass about Saudi Arabia is due to oil. This ticks me off to no end that we continue to support this country led by rulers who only care about how big their bank acounts are and not anything else. It is a very corrupt country that continually allows breeding of hatred. And that hatred turns to terrorism.

[Guest Powerplay]

The point of bringing up Oklahoma City was to show that terrorists can come from any part of the world. In this case many people died because of a terrorist attack, it was the second largest terrorist attack in the US. Timothy McVeigh was the man responsible for this terrible act. And you are right about that a large majority of terrorists coming from Arab countries, but that doesn't hide the fact that terrorists can come from any back ground or country. Regime change in Iraq will not stop the breeding of terrorists in the Middle East.

And the fact that Timothy McVeigh did this doesn't dim the fact that the massive majority of Terrorists attacking us are Arab in nature. Sure, you can come from any backround or anywhere, but the majority are again from Middle Eastern descent. You can cry Tim McVeigh all you want, but look at all the terrorist groups after us at the moment, and many of them are outside groups from the Middle East.

 

Who said the regieme change would? What it does is cuts off one flow of weapons (Conventional or Unconventional) and money going towards these groups. That does help us and hurt the terrorists and their ability to attack us.

 

But in Saudi Arabia, the government allows many of it's schools to preach hatred of Isreal and the Western World, mainly the US. So how is Saudi Arabia our so called ally again? Even if the terrorists were expelled from the country, they still learned their hatred in Saudi Arabia. Many of the world's terrorists come from Saudi Arabia. And the only reason we even give a rat's ass about Saudi Arabia is due to oil. This ticks me off to no end that we continue to support this country led by rulers who only care about how big their bank acounts are and not anything else. It is a very corrupt country that continually allows breeding of hatred. And that hatred turns to terrorism.

 

Did you note that I said ".... 'ally'...."? I mean the term very loosely. Many people support your view on the Saudi Government; I sure do. After a free Iraq begins to pump out the oil to us, there won't be a need for us to help the Saudi Royal Family. We pull out, they get overthrown, and we come in to help put in place a new government. Glad to see we agree on something here.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

One thing. I didnt misinterperet anything. I seriously hear it everyday on the Boaton area. WAAF and WEEI callers always say, "Those soldiers are over there fighting for our freedom"

 

I'm not missing anything, this is what frustrates me every morning on the way to work.

In a sense, they are. They are fighting for our Freedom to live a life without fear.

Yeahhhhh....

 

because once Iraq's been taken care of everything will be a.o.k.

 

it isn't insuring your safety. I was watching CNN today and they're already broadcasting a poll showing 50% approval for an Invasioon of IRAN. That's really going to impress the rest of the Middle East.

[Guest Powerplay]

One thing. I didnt misinterperet anything. I seriously hear it everyday on the Boaton area. WAAF and WEEI callers always say, "Those soldiers are over there fighting for our freedom"

 

I'm not missing anything, this is what frustrates me every morning on the way to work.

In a sense, they are. They are fighting for our Freedom to live a life without fear.

Yeahhhhh....

 

because once Iraq's been taken care of everything will be a.o.k.

 

it isn't insuring your safety. I was watching CNN today and they're already broadcasting a poll showing 50% approval for an Invasioon of IRAN. That's really going to impress the rest of the Middle East.

I'll certainly feel a little safer once Iraq no longer has a horrible dictator in power and has WMD at his disposal.

 

Well, you know that 58% of Russians want the Iraqis to win the war right now, while only 3% want the U.S. to win. That's slightly more frightening in my opinion, considering Russia was supposed to be an ALLY and all...