What could have made these guys into stars?

[Guest Redhawk]

Just wondering why you thought the guys on this list turned out the way they did. What was good about their time in the WWF? What was bad? Where were they booked wrong or what could have made them a star? Did they ever even have a shot to be a star?

 

Ken Shamrock -- He could still probably come back now and be an effective heel (given the sideburns look), but I don't think he really likes wrestling. But when he was there, his best character was the babyface one who feuded with The Rock in 1998.

 

Dan Severn -- If they had had him "injure" a few more guys with submission hold, like he did to D'Lo, he could have been a slightly quicker Regal/slower Benoit.

 

Ahmed Johnson

 

Scott Hall -- Maybe if Austin would have played ball at Wrestlemania 18 and at least let him ALMOST win. But his best bet would probably be as a tag team with Nash.

 

Raven

 

X-Pac

 

Tazz (as a wrestler) -- There was a potential feud with a heel Steve Austin during the InVasion that the fans were waiting to see.

 

Diamond Dallas Page -- If they'd let him kick Undertaker's ass during the stalker feud, he'd have been the No.1 or 2 heel before the injuries/age inevitably got him.

 

D'Lo Brown

 

Bull Buchanan

 

Buff Bagwell

 

Perry Saturn

[Guest HartFan86]

I'd say Hall was a superstar in 94 for the WWF, but I see your point.

 

Edit: And I'd say Waltman was a superstar in 98-99.....Hall/Waltman are the only two I'd question on that list of wrestlers that could of been major stars, but never were because I think both were so popular at one point that they were superstars.

 

I'd say what did it for Shamrock was his heart wasn't into it. He was major over at one point....but he didn't stick with it, which is really a damn shame because like I said, was really over.

 

Ahmed was injury prone and horrible in the ring......nothing more.

 

Dan Severn wasn't marketable, boring as hell in the ring, not motivated.

 

Raven is just misused. He could be as big as anyone, but no one will give him the chance other than Heyman in ECW.

 

Tazz (as a wrestler) had a burden coming in...he went from ECW champion to the Hardcore Title mess. I've got the feeling he was held down and not able to do his stuff....and his style was BADLY bastardized when he came back from injury in June. Fucking WWE style.

 

Diamond Dallas Page...I'd say he was a major superstar in WCW, but since he got involved in all of the bullshit in the WWF with it's politics, not a lot he could do there.

 

D'Lo Brown...he broke Droz's neck....his career was getting very intresting in late 1999 and was very over, but this killed it.

 

Bull Buchanan is a lost cause.

 

Buff Bagwell is a lost cause.

 

Perry Saturn is a lost cause.

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

Ken Shamrock - He was pretty big but improving his mic skills is what he needed.

Dan Severn - Nothing he would've never been a star/

Ahmed Johnson - He was INSANELY over in 1996(I'm talking 98 Goldberg level) but was too sloppy and injury prone.

Scott Hall - He is a star IMO.

Raven - Anything resembling a push.

X-Pac - He got as far as he could IMO.

Tazz (as a wrestler) - A push and mic time.

Diamond Dallas Page - Not getting squashed by Taker & co.

D'Lo Brown - I doubt anythign woulda made him huge.

Bull Buchanan - Nothing.

Buff Bagwell - Him not being a prick.

Perry Saturn - A decent push and a chance to shwo off his skills.

[Guest TheHulkster]

Just wondering why you thought the guys on this list turned out the way they did. What was good about their time in the WWF? What was bad? Where were they booked wrong or what could have made them a star? Did they ever even have a shot to be a star?

 

Ken Shamrock

Dan Severn

Ahmed Johnson

Scott Hall

Raven

X-Pac

Tazz (as a wrestler)

Diamond Dallas Page

D'Lo Brown

Bull Buchanan

Buff Bagwell

Perry Saturn

Ken Shamrock: Some big wins over some top names. He was pretty over.

Dan Severn: Nothing. He is/was way too vanilla for the WWF/E audience

Ahmed Johnson: If they gave him a lot of in ring seasoning and placed him on a dedicated weight loss program, he could be a decent top level face. Thats a lot of work and money to use on one guy.

Scott Hall: Razor Ramon was a big star in the business. They were just content at keeping him as the runner up to the top face. Maybe a whole lot of drug counseling, which hasn't really worked in the past. Then again, Michaels used a good amount of drugs during his run as the top babyface.

Raven: Heyman as head booker and no past heat between them.

X-Pac: Nothing

Tazz: Nothing

DDP: Ted Turner buying the WWE and making Bischoff the top guy

Bull Buchanon: Nothing

Buff Bagwell: Nothing

Perry Saturn: A long string of wins over top talent

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

Only Hall had a shot, but it was ruined by drugs and bad booking (Goldust angle, Diaper match, etc.). The thing that hurt him the most was the job to 123 Kid.

 

He was one of the top 3 or 4 guys in 1992-early 1993, but that job killed his heat and he had to start over again. He managed to make it pretty high up on the card again in 1994, but he never really did reach superstar status. He had the big match with Shawn, but no one really though he stood a chance against guys like Bret, Owen, Taker, Yoko & Luger, the top guys at the time. He was at the Jericho/Benoit level.

 

It was all downhill after the Jarrett feud, and despite winning the IC title again he never got that high in the card.

 

Raven could have been a star had he stuck it out when he was Johnny Polo, but by the time he got back again he was too old and broken down.

 

DDP is a smart guy and should have done better, but he never would have become one of the top guys. Injuries took him out after 9 months anyways.

 

The other guys either sucked or were nothing more than midcarders.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Ken Shamrock

 

Severely misused half the time, but he obviously wasn't making best use of his skills anyway. I kinda figure the only reason a shootfighter gets into pro wrestling is for the larger paycheck.

 

Dan Severn

Ahmed Johnson

 

I didn't start watching early enough to know who these guys are.

 

Scott Hall

 

He came close, but his addictions would have been the end of him anyway.

 

Raven

 

In TNA right now, but TNA is almost at it's worst currently. Don't know.

 

X-Pac

 

Became a waste of time around 97 or so.

 

Tazz (as a wrestler)

 

No. The WWF Tazz was a bastardized Tazz that made ECW fans scream "OMGWTF THATS NOT THE REAL TAZ!" but they were probably smart to do that. Having the ECW Taz, the "injures the hell out of everyone" Taz, doing his thing in the WWF... That would have been a disaster, sorry.

 

Diamond Dallas Page

 

Don't know enough about the guy. I've heard before that he only got a job in WCW because he was Bischoff's next door neighbor. Is this true?

 

D'Lo Brown

 

I think it's pretty much an understatement to say that the Droz incident cut D'lo at the knees.

 

Bull Buchanan

Buff Bagwell

 

Wastes of time.

 

Perry Saturn

 

I haven't seen Saturn in WCW, but my problem with him in WWF is.. Well..... Most of the time, he looked like the kinda guy I'd expect to see in leather at a gay bar.

 

It got worse once he pulled that crazy tall feathery hat out of Jeff Hardy's wardrobe, at which point I completely stopped caring about him.

[Guest oldschoolwrestling]

Diamond Dallas Page

 

Don't know enough about the guy. I've heard before that he only got a job in WCW because he was Bischoff's next door neighbor. Is this true?

In his book, Page talks about how much harder he had to work because Bischoff gave him less breaks since he was his neighbor. He was pissed about the whole situation because Bischoff seemed to know he was worthy and busting his ass but didn't want it to seem like their friendship was behind any push.

[Guest Brian]

The only person I'd ever say who did't get a fair shake at the top, could have made it, and was deserving but will not get another shot with the WWE is Owen Hart.

[Guest Choken One]

Owen Got his Main event run in 1994-1995 but he hurt himself by nearly ending Austin's career.

 

Shamrock-I've said many times in my "What If" posts...That Shamrock would have been Austin's replacement had he retired after Summerslam 1997. Sure, He mic skills weren't all that hot but they easily could had made him into a Bad Ass motherfucker...He was doing fairly well in WWE until the Incest refusual hurt his status with Vince.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

In his book, Page talks about how much harder he had to work because Bischoff gave him less breaks since he was his neighbor. He was pissed about the whole situation because Bischoff seemed to know he was worthy and busting his ass but didn't want it to seem like their friendship was behind any push.

Interesting.

[Guest Coffey]

Ken Shamrock ~ I think that Shamrock could've been a huge star. I'll so far as to say that Shamrock could've been a top WWE main eventer. I think that the WWE should've booked him as a submission expert. I thought they were going to, instead they went with the "Shamrock has snapped" shit. I think that Shamrock had most of the tools, and he could've worked on his promos. His promo style was heading in the right direction, with the "I'll win because I'm better than you" attitude. I think that NWA had the right idea. He could win with moves other than the Ankle Lock. To this day, a Kurt Angle Vs. Ken Shamrock match to decide whom has the better Ankle Lock is one of my dream matches. Kindof like when RVD and Eddie Guerrero feuded over Frog Splashes.

 

Dan Severn ~ I think that he may have waited a bit long to get into the business. By the time he showed up, he already looked older than my dad, whom is 43. I really don't know what could've been done with Dan Severn, although I think that he had more potential then someone like Tank Abbot. Severn could've been in someone's corner, and helped them as an on screen personal trainer. A little bit like Bobby Heenan was for Mr. Perfect whe he was working out and such.

 

Ahmed Johnson ~ Ahmed was over. He just let his personal demons get the better of him. His promo's were some of the worst ever too. He should've just played the "I'm an angry black man" card. He had a look (before he got fat) and his finish was over at the time. Ahmed had his shot.

 

Scott Hall ~ Again, Hall let his demons get the better of him, but I think that Nash ruined his career when they were in WCW together. The Outsiders were looked upon as a tag team. Of course, since Kevin Nash was the bigger of the two, Scott Hall became the "little man" of the group. So, people think of the two as "tag team specialist." OK, that's all fine and dandy, but then you get to the tag team chemisty. I'm not talking about how well Hall & Nash worked together as a tag team, I'm talking about tag teams in general. Say, for example, you have Demolition as a tag team. Now, if they are fighting wrestlers who are above them on the ladder in a tag match, Demolition should win because of tag team experience and such. So, even though people like Ted DiBiase and Jake Roberts were above them on the ladder so to speak, if they were to wrestle, Demolition should win because of the tag team equation. Ok, but the Outsiders were looked at as "If the faces can keep Nash out of the ring, they have a chance." Then, the Outsiders split, and Nash made Hall look bad by Jacknife Powerbombing Hall twice, as if to say, I can easily beat you, then he just walked away as if to say "you're not worth my time." Remember when HBK & Razor Ramon were in ladder matches? People thought that either man could win because both men were in their element by the time the second ladder match came around. However, in WCW when Hall & Goldberg had a ladder match, no one thought that Hall had a chance...even though he should've been a ladder match specialist. It wasn't all because Goldberg never lost either...because this was right after his loss to non other than Nash at Starrcade the month before. Hall had all the tools, and was something special.

 

Raven ~ Raven was never given a chance in WWE. He got over in ECW, WCW & in NWA he's over, if for no other reason, because of name value. In WWE, he dubuted in a match between Taz & Jerry Lawler. Neither man should he have even come in contact with. Just because Taz was in ECW, doesn't mean that he has to have a connection with Raven. Raven could've had great feuds with people like Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit & even Tommy Dreamer again like he did in ECW (yes, I know that sort of makes me sound like a hypocrite). Instead, he gets ended week after week by Lawler, and sometimes even Jim Ross. Then he gets cast down to the horrible excuse for a hardcore division, and loses to people like Crash Holly, Kane and other junk. WWE's loss on this one.

 

X-Pac ~ Nobody liked X-pac, because he was too small to be a believable contender to the people that he was getting wins over. Clean wins. Everyone knew that he was only getting victories because of off camera bullshit. He looked like a rat, and when he became a heel way back when, people already hated him. His biggest moment in his career was when he got an upset victory over Razor. It was a big moment because no one thought that he would win. Eventually, people always thought he would win even though he shouldn't have been an obstacle, so that's why people hated him so much. I think he would've been better off had he been booked like Disco Inferno. Just have him get an occasional big win, and look to fit in to a group, but have him keep getting shunned. Eventually, the crowd would get behind the underdog, and he could get an upset win to become excepted. Then, of course, they would turn on him down the road, and the highway would have to be walked again. Also: Needs less Bronco Buster.

 

Tazz ~ Half of his moves were taken away to begin with. No one in the WWE wanted to see a mid-carder hitting 13 different types of suplexes, including top rope variations. Also, his finisher should've become more established. Instead of basically being called an illegal manuever to start out with, it should've been played up as a move that if locked in is match. Tazz lost a little bit when he couldn't cuss in his promo's and punk out people in the crowd too. He was just too small for the WWE I guess.

 

Diamond Dallas Page ~ I tell you what, I bet he would've been over in WWE if Kimberly escorted him to ringside as his valet. His finisher should've been established like it was in WCW too. Sure, Hogan should beat his ass, but if DDP gets the cutter...it's over. Kindof like that. DDP is out of his league against The Undertaker, but if Taker gets cut, DDP will get the upset. DDP had a good run in WCW, and I'll remember him for that.

 

D-Lo Brown ~ I don't think that he should've ever lost the chest protector.

 

Bull Buchanon ~ They just never put him anywhere that he fit. First, with the Bossman, whom no one cared about, then with the RTC, whom people hated to even see on camera. Then, Bling Bling Buchanon, whom could've gotten over possibly, but was released before he got a chance. I think Bull should've just got a solo shot.

 

Buff Bagwell ~ It was his own damn fat, the little fat headed prick. His air brushed clothes were terrible too. He should've just been a cocky heel that was capable of winning...but I could never see him as a main eventer.

 

Perry Saturn ~ Similar to Taz really. The WWE pretty much took away half of his moves. He never got to use his suplexes or his springboard moves. Apparently, the WWE thinks that people can only get over by being funny. I guess they frown on series characters. It's bullshit. I like Saturn, and I'm glad that he's back to using the DVD in NWA again.

[Guest El Satanico]

Ken Shamrock - Nothing as he was pretty succesful in WWe and he'd be a solid mid/upper carder if he didn't get the Shootfighting bug and leave.

 

Dan Severn - Other then being a stiff shooter type of character there's not much that you could do with him. Would've been a mid carder at best.

 

Ahmed Johnson - He was mushed mouth and prone to hurting guys...Not much they could've done.

 

Scott Hall - Do you mean his time in WWe as part of NWO? If so...well it's hard to say. He was basically useless when Hogan had to be turned and Nash got hurt.

 

Raven - Allow him to be himself

 

X-Pac - Nothing as long as he was lazy. If he decided to work hard he would've been a good cruiser heel.

 

Tazz - Allow him be the suplex machine monster he was in ECW, but very few in WWe would take those suplex so he'd be screwed either way.

 

Diamond Dallas Page - Don't let Undertaker squash him like a little bug

 

D'Lo Brown - If WWe kept him in sustained pushes after the Droz accident he could've been something good for them. By the time WWe decided to try pushing him again it was much too late.

 

Buff Bagwell - Too much of a douche...would've shot his push in the foot by acting like an idiot.

 

Perry Saturn - He looked too strange to get a big push, but would've made a very solid midcarder

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

Remember when HBK & Razor Ramon were in ladder matches? People thought that either man could win because both men were in their element by the time the second ladder match came around.

 

The second ladder match was a foregone conclusion. HBK vs. Sid was already signed for Summerslam, and it was changed to the ladder match by Monsoon at the last minute. Shawn vs. Sid was moved to the next night on RAW for the IC Title. At the very end of 1994 Shawn left Razor behind in the mid-card and never looked back. He was the biggest star in the promotion in 1995, despite Diesel having the big belt. Razor had no chance in that match.

[Guest Choken One]

Yeah but the marks brought Razor because he won the last one...

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

No one in the WWE wanted to see a mid-carder hitting 13 different types of suplexes, including top rope variations.

Correction: Nobody wanted the injuries that comes with having the shit suplexed out of you.

[Guest HartFan86]

Correction: Nobody wanted the injuries that comes with having the shit suplexed out of you.

Yet they let Benoit, Angle, Edge, etc. do it.

[Guest Choken One]

Because they are expendable...Didn't ya know that?

[LooseCannon25 0]

Ken Shamrock ------- The guy had the charisma, good enough skills, and was a pure badass. He was ver over with the fans and could have been a main event guy. He even got the chance to main event a PPV (D-Generation X). Unfortunately, his heart wasnt all into it and went to Pride.

 

Owen Hart ---- This guy,if handled correctly could have been the biggest star of the company. Imagine almost as technically sound as his brother with a high flying, and high impact element. They didnt follow through all the way though and let him fall into midcard status.

 

Waylon Mercy ---- You may think i'm crazy for naming this guy, but his character and gimmick was one of the best i ever seen. If Dan Spivey had been healthy and a little more mobile and younger I think he could have gotten over big time. Unfortunately, the injuries made him retire. I still think to this day they should reprive the gimmick with someone else. I hear Bull Buchanan was doing something similiar in OVW with an OVW gimmick.

[Guest creativename]

Diamond Dallas Page

 

Don't know enough about the guy. I've heard before that he only got a job in WCW because he was Bischoff's next door neighbor. Is this true?

In his book, Page talks about how much harder he had to work because Bischoff gave him less breaks since he was his neighbor. He was pissed about the whole situation because Bischoff seemed to know he was worthy and busting his ass but didn't want it to seem like their friendship was behind any push.

That's pretty much nonsense. Everyone in the business knows that his friendship with Bisch was the primary reason for his main event run in WCW. Him saying that is the same as HHH saying how he needs to work harder because he's a family member. Just your typical and uncreative excuse for favoritism/nepotism. It's doesn't hold upon inspection.

 

I'm a DDP fan and feel horrible about how he was buried in the WWF due to politics, however his success in WCW was also due mostly to due politics. There's simply no other explanation for an aging non-wrestling manager all of a sudden becoming a top babyface who main events and wins the world title multiple times.

[Guest El Satanico]

Well DDP was over and did work hard so him getting pushes really wasn't that bad.

[Guest Redhawk]

Perry Saturn - He looked too strange to get a big push, but would've made a very solid midcarder

 

I agree with that one. There's a difference between looking unique and looking like a freak. Brock Lesnar, Batista and Raven have unique looks. Jeff Hardy, A-Train and Saturn (and Raven in his last RAW appearance) just look weird. When Saturn got those really big-ass tattoos, the ones that pretty much covered his entire torso, he lost me.

 

Buff Bagwell - Too much of a douche...would've shot his push in the foot by acting like an idiot.

 

I haven't really paid attention to the Bagwell stories. What's he done that's so bad?

[Guest SP-1]

I honestly feel that Bull Buchannan could have been a big player if they'd have let him draw upon his agility and let him do stuff aside from take up space and participate in the odd tag match.

[LooseCannon25 0]

I honestly feel that Bull Buchannan could have been a big player if they'd have let him draw upon his agility and let him do stuff aside from take up space and participate in the odd tag match.

I agree with you SpiderPoet. A guy as big as him doing scissor kicks and picture perfect top rope legdrops is very impressive. He also has a good look and seems to have intesity in the ring. Put him in that Cape fear or Waylon Mercy gimmick and he's gold!

[Guest SP-1]

 

Bull's a weird guy to saddle with a gimmick. Too serious and it doesn't work, for whatever reason, to me. Too funny and it doesn't. But he can't really just be a normal joe either. Weird. Maybe just have him a badass heavyweight with . . . cruiserweight moves. I dunno.

[Guest AndrewTS]

I honestly feel that Bull Buchannan could have been a big player if they'd have let him draw upon his agility and let him do stuff aside from take up space and participate in the odd tag match.

I agree with you SpiderPoet. A guy as big as him doing scissor kicks and picture perfect top rope legdrops is very impressive. He also has a good look and seems to have intesity in the ring. Put him in that Cape fear or Waylon Mercy gimmick and he's gold!

Very true. If he'd been trained to developed that athletic ability into putting on good matches, he could have been very over and been apart of great matches. Surprisingly that didn't happen, considering how long he's been around.

[Guest Your Olympic Hero]

Dan Severn

Ahmed Johnson

Bull Buchanan

Buff Bagwell

Perry Saturn

I don't think any of them really had the chance. Ahmed got the blowjob push from hell and he still fucks everything up.

[Guest JDMattitudeV1]

Ken Shamrock -- If he had stayed around I think he would have become a star.

 

Dan Severn -- To bland, was never going to happen.

 

Ahmed Johnson - To injury prone and dangerous.

 

Scott Hall - Self-destructed, no one to blame but himself.

 

Raven - One of the biggest wastes of talent in WWE history. All they had to do was give him the microphone and push him and he would have gotten himself over.

 

X-Pac - I think upper midcard was as good as he was ever going to get.

 

Tazz (as a wrestler) -- His debut at Royal Rumble 2000 was huge, all they had to do was capitalise on that. Basically push him as his ECW character of a thug who can choke you out for no other reason than the fact that he can.

 

Diamond Dallas Page -- Let him get one offensive move in his feud with Taker. This feud summarises what was wrong with the entire invasion, the WWF guys killing the WCW guys just to piss on WCW’s grave. It started out good with DDP being able to get inside Takers head and if they pushed this as being the way to beat him, he would have been a star, plain and simple.

 

D'Lo Brown - Was never going to get pushed again after Droz. As far as making him a star not puting him in Lo Down and pretending to be Indian might be a good pace to start.

 

Bull Buchanan - Lost cause

 

Buff Bagwell - Another one that self destucted, can't do anything about that.

 

Perry Saturn - was never going to be a superstar but could have gotten over as a ruthless killer if given someone to talk for him. Has that psycho look that would have helped too. Again not pairing him with Terri and having him fall in love with a mop might have been a good place to start.

[Guest creativename]

Well DDP was over and did work hard so him getting pushes really wasn't that bad.

I totally agree. Again, I like DDP. Especially after he took less money to work with the WWF than he would've gotten if he had just stayed at home, collecting from WCW. That just shows the love he has for this businesss, making his retirement due to injury all the more tragic.

 

Some people say that DDP was a sucker because of what he did, but I think that's one of the most respect-worthy things I've heard of a wrestler doing. Compare it to Goldberg. DDP's actions speak for themselves. However, it is very difficult to deny that the vast majority of his WCW success came about due to politics.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

I like DDP, and he could have been a big star if handled better in WCW. By the time he got to the WWF he was too broken down.

[Guest El Satanico]

Perry Saturn - He looked too strange to get a big push, but would've made a very solid midcarder

 

I agree with that one. There's a difference between looking unique and looking like a freak. Brock Lesnar, Batista and Raven have unique looks. Jeff Hardy, A-Train and Saturn (and Raven in his last RAW appearance) just look weird. When Saturn got those really big-ass tattoos, the ones that pretty much covered his entire torso, he lost me.

Well I don't have a problem with his look and in fact i actually like it, but in WWe they don't much care for the freak look.

 

Speaking of Saturn's look...He actually made wearing dresses work for him. I don't mean a "dress" like Raven wears sometimes, but real dresses. He wasn't all done up like a crossdresser either, he was clearly a guy in a dress and still made it work for him. That has to earn him some extra credit points in anyones book.