That's it, dammit

[Guest CoreyLazarus416]

I just finished downloading Christopher Daniels vs. American Dragon, which took me a week on this fucking 56k and with KaZaA, and it's my first taste of RoH. What is the general consensus on this match? During the commentary, it was mentioned that this was the night where Daniels faced Dragon and LowKi, and Dragon faced Daniels and Ki. I believe it took place at the event after LowKi vs. Christopher Daniels vs. American Dragon.

 

Can I expect more matches like this from RoH? Where is a good cheap site where I can buy RoH tapes?

[Guest ShooterJay]

Dude, it's fucking Ring of Honor- EVERY tape has at least one mindblowing match.

 

This match is from Round Robin Challenge.

Daniels vs. Dragon is considered a **** match.

Daniels vs. Ki I've never seen

Ki vs. Dragon was up until the London/Dragon series the best match in ROH history. Very close to the full ***** monty.

[Guest HHH123007]

Download the 3-way match between Low Ki, Daniels, and American Dragon....it's the way all triple threats should be.

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

The 3 way between Dragon, Daniels and Ki stands up as one of the best 3 ways I've ever seen from any fed, period. Dragon is the total star of that match. I've seen a lot of fuckin matches since then and the spot where he has Daniels in the Indian Deathlock and manages to catch a Low-Ki Yakuza kick AND give him a Northern Lights while STILL holding Daniels in the Deathlock just amazes me.

 

Dragon owns you.

[Guest Smell the ratings!!!]

fuck yes, that 3 way was the best match of all last year. If you haven't seen it, find it, period.

[Guest CoreyLazarus416]

I'm downloading it now...

[Guest Youth N Asia]

Ki vs Dragon was fuckin boring! I can deal with submission matches but they slowed it down way too much.

[Chunk 0]

Yeah, thats form the round robin, about a year and a bit ago.

 

That show is one of my favourite indy shows of all time. You cant go wrong with ROH tapes. What took yuo so long to decide to buy some

 

The match you just d/l'd is about a **** IMO aswell, but the main event (Ki/Dragon) is just pure pure class. One small thing stops it being a ***** (which I wont say as I dont want to blow it for you), but you have to buy that full tape.

 

Ki vs Dragon was fuckin boring! I can deal with submission matches but they slowed it down way too much.

 

Fair enough if you dont like the style I guess, but Im still unsure how you could think it was boring?

 

ChUnK!

[Guest Youth N Asia]

I just thought there were way too many restholds, you can call it psychology, but I called it stalling. After that dropped that crap for a while it did pick up

[Chunk 0]

I just thought there were way too many restholds, you can call it psychology, but I called it stalling. After that dropped that crap for a while it did pick up

Fair points if you dont like the style. I hadnt really ever seen anything like it before, and I thought it was awesome.

 

I cant really say more about what I did and didnt like, without blowing it for Corey.

 

ChUnK!

[Guest Zero_Cool]

The three way is just fucking awesome, and the indian deathlock/northen lights spot is a piece of wrestling that is imbedded in my mind everytime I think RoH or wrestling period.

 

Anybody seen the Amazing Red/Low Ki match? It wasn't perfect or anything, but the beginning of the match with the kung fu, and Low Ki's hong kong style punches were freaking badass. It wasn't your average indy stalemate, it was like something out of a movie.

[Guest CoreyLazarus416]

It wasn't your average indy stalemate, it was like something out of a movie.

Which is why I like The Amazing Red. Sure, no transition, and he'd be exposed as a huge piece of shit worker if in the ring with Chris Benoit for 10 minutes, but the guy's matches seem like kung-fu fight scenes. And there's something about that I just love.

[JustJoe2k5 0]

I liked Low Ki vs. The Amazing Red from NWA-TNA more than I liked their RoH encounter. They had the amazing beginning and the match could only go down from there, but in their NWA-TNA match they kept a good flow from start to finish and even included the kung-fu standoff. As far as RoH goes, if you liked Christopher Daniels vs. American Dragon you must get Low Ki vs. American Dragon and Low Ki vs. American Dragon vs. Christopher Daniels. Youth N Asia, you bitch about The Amazing Red being a spot-monkey, but when you see an actual match with psychology you call it boring. Maybe you should start watching some Big Show and A-Train matches, they could float your boat.

[Guest CoreyLazarus416]

Youth N Asia, you bitch about The Amazing Red being a spot-monkey, but when you see an actual match with psychology you call it boring. Maybe you should start watching some Big Show and A-Train matches, they could float your boat.

Oh, TAG~!~

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I'd never seen a match like Ki vs. Dragon either...but I dug it.

 

Part of me can't resist the all out speed of certain X divivision matches in TNA...but what I saw from Ki and Dragon I thought was pretty damn special.

 

I have to be in the mood to think when I watch stuff like that though...which is why I prefer the balls out make no sense attitude of the X division.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

I *heart* Low-Ki/AMazing Red from RoH. I have seen both that and their NWA TNA match, but I think the RoH match is better if for no other reason then the kung-fu standoff comes right near the start of the match. I find it a HELL of a lot more believable that both guys are able to quickly counter each other so much when they're both still fresh, as opposed to the NWA match, where (if I remember correctly - I haven't seen that match in a bit) the kung-fu standoff (They use the exact same spot) comes a bit later in the match, when both guys are worn down a bit.

 

I also A-FUCKING-DORE Low-Ki's counter to Red's Suicide Plancha. I almost shit my pants when I saw that. Beautiful.

 

Also, on what YnA called "stalling"...Maybe I'm crazy, but sometimes I think I could watch two guys fight over an armbar for 20 minutes, so long as it looks like they're struggling. I mean, if they're just gonna lay there, that's one thing. But if the victim has his hands locked, fights up to his feet, tries to roll over with it, whatever, well, that's another. As long as it looks like both guys are still struggling to get something acheived, I don't consider it boring.

 

But that's just me.

 

Oh, and the Neck Crank Suplex RULED ALL.

 

Except that Cradle Suplex. THAT RULED MORE THEN ALL. I don't know how these guys walked away from this match...

[Guest Youth N Asia]

Youth N Asia, you bitch about The Amazing Red being a spot-monkey, but when you see an actual match with psychology you call it boring.  Maybe you should start watching some Big Show and A-Train matches, they could float your boat.

And who are you, little fella?

 

I just think the submission stuff could have taken up half the time and been just as effective. I'm watching it and 5 minutes into a move I'm thinking something has to be reversed or broken...but no, it just goes on. Sorry if I'm not as easily impressed like everyone else.

 

I just don't like when they start a match with all mat work, and end with high flying spots left and right. And the ending was predictable cause Dragon needed the submission win cause Daniels and Ki already got theirs.

 

Go bust out your Karl Gotch tapes and teach your grandchildren about the golden age of "psychology" and how matches went 50 minutes before the first fall.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

I just don't like when they start a match with all mat work, and end with high flying spots left and right.

 

Would you perfer the reverse? Or perhaps a match that is NOTHING but mat work? Or a match that is NOTHING but high flying spots?

 

And to be fair, Low-Ki/Dragon had very little high-flying spots. In fact, outside of the Stardust Press, I can't think of any big ones. Maybe it's because neither guy is a high-flier, but hey...

 

Unless you just meant highspots, such as those sick sick suplexes.

 

And besides, you knew AD was going to win, because it's just another step in wrestling's never-ending quest for indecisive finishes. You ever notice that? They set things up in such a way that they make you think there HAS to be a winner, then they find a way so that no one wins. Fucking bastards.

[Guest Youth N Asia]

I just thought it should have been paced a little quicker to start. That's all

[Guest Smell the ratings!!!]

nothing to do with anything, but when Red countered a kick with a foot sweep and then came up with a Standing SSP I marked out like a little bitch.

[Guest Andy]

I can't really add to much to this thread except to say: Ring Of Honor rules!!!!!

 

I've got all of the first 11 shows, and they've all been brilliant. I'm really looking forward to getting hold of some more of them in the not-too-distant future.

 

Cheers - A.

[Chunk 0]

I just don't like when they start a match with all mat work, and end with high flying spots left and right.

 

I can see your point, but personally I dont have a problem with that at all. To me, it seems like they've tried to beat each other on the mat and are getting more and more deperate to try something more outrageous to put their opponent away. Sort of like 1 up manship, but necessary in order to get the fall, when everything else on the mat hasnt worked.

 

A quick side note:

 

I have to be in the mood to think when I watch stuff like that though...which is why I prefer the balls out make no sense attitude of the X division.

 

Thats is so damn true. You took the words right out of my mind. I find myself having to watch mathes over again, if I wasnt concentrating properly the first time.

 

 

Anyway, I just finished watching ROH show 4 - Road to the title, which just happens to have the Ki/Red match on it, that you are all talking about.

 

I cant say this enough, you HAVE to see that show. Corey, sell your buy this tape, true it means that you have to part with some money, but you will not regret it. How about this for a card:

 

Spanky/Paul London

Jody Fleisch/Jonny Storm

 

Christopher Daniels/Scoot Andrews

Jerry Lynn/AJ Styles

 

American Dragon/Biohazard

Doug Williams/Jay Briscoe

 

Red/Xavier

Low Ki/Prince Nana

 

Followed by (all on the same tape!!!!):

 

Spanky/Jody Fleisch

Christopher Daniels/AJ Styles

American Dragon/Doug Williams

Low-Ki/Red

 

 

Thats right, all of that on the same tape. This is possibly the best pure wrestling show I have ever seen. IMO, and of the following matches from the tape would have been worth the money on their own:

 

Spanky/London

 

Fleisch/Storm (Not as good as their BOTB match, but bloody good none the less)

 

Jerry Lynn/AJ Styles

 

American Dragon/Doug Williams (Sell your house to see this match. Im not joking, this is absolutely outstanding ****1/2 IMO. You have to see this match!)

 

You've also got the Red/Ki match that has that awesome Kung-Fu sequence and is super super heated throughout.

 

Spanky/Fleisch is also very good. Jody springboard moonsaults to the outside, straight into the security railing and puts a huge bend in the metal! Sick sick spot.

 

Daniels/Styles didnt seem bad, but I wasnt really into it, because it was last up and everything before it was just so awesome. Id have to watch it again, but it didnt look bad at all.

 

Finally, Ki/Nana is worth a look if even for the finish. Its not often you see a pro wrestler win a wrestling match bu KO!

 

Im not sure if I mentioned this, but YOU HAVE TO SEE THIS SHOW! lol

 

Just awesome!

 

ChUnK!

[JustJoe2k5 0]

The only problem I have with Road to the Title is that the DVD doesn't have chapters, and I get really annoyed when I have to fast forward through almost the entire show to get to one particular match because I have a PS2 and use my controller. I could use some help with picking out a show, should I get RoH's 1st Anniversary Show or their April 12 show. Just found out that today's Ring of Honor show will be Round Robin Challenge 2 with Christopher Daniels, Paul London, and The Amazing Red.

[Guest OSIcon]

I have to be in the mood to think when I watch stuff like that though...which is why I prefer the balls out make no sense attitude of the X division.

 

I think a lot of people feel that way these days. Its kind of sad in a way because its ruining the "art" of wrestling. If a wrestler can go out there and do lots of crazy flying moves, he will get over and be considered a good wrestler. But from a realistic standpoint, those matches leave a lot to be desired. There's nothing realistic about most X-Division type matches where the wrestlers fly, flip, and flop from the get go. Big moves seem to constitute good wrestler to a lot of people now. Nothing really wrong with anyone that says that, because thats just how good wrestling has been presented recently and continues to be presented.

 

As for Dragon/Ki, I don't think its a ***** match or anything like that, but saying that the matwork is "stalling" and "restholds" just isn't accurate. There is a definite match type and story they were going for there. Feeling out process lead to a series on the mat where they both struggled for the advantage and possible submissions. Then it goes from there. I can understand not liking the match, but to play it off as them stalling just isn't right. I

 

I hate the "let's do a two minute armdrag and armbar sequence to start the match so it looks like we are building." Then they do ten minutes of highspots. I'll take a 15 minute mat sequence day. The other kind comes off as blatantly forced and fake. The Ki-Dragon mat work is more realistic and leads to a better build.

[Chunk 0]

I have to be in the mood to think when I watch stuff like that though...which is why I prefer the balls out make no sense attitude of the X division.

 

I think a lot of people feel that way these days. Its kind of sad in a way because its ruining the "art" of wrestling. If a wrestler can go out there and do lots of crazy flying moves, he will get over and be considered a good wrestler. But from a realistic standpoint, those matches leave a lot to be desired. There's nothing realistic about most X-Division type matches where the wrestlers fly, flip, and flop from the get go. Big moves seem to constitute good wrestler to a lot of people now. Nothing really wrong with anyone that says that, because thats just how good wrestling has been presented recently and continues to be presented.

Good points.

 

As a new (dumb) smark, the art of wrestling is something that I would really like to learn about. I would love to be able to sit down and watch a match like Ki/Dragon and get the pysch and story without having to think about it.

 

Is it ever possible to get to that level of understanding? Or do you think that you will always have to concentrate in order to fully apreciate a match?

 

Any literture or video tapes you would recommend to show me more about the "art" of wrestling? I like to think that if I ever made it through pro-training, I would work matches in the style of Doug Williams and AmDrag. The hidden messages in matches of guys like these, is what got me interested in wrestling again. It makes me laugh when I try to explain stuff to my mark friends and they just look at me as if im making it up

 

ChUnK!

[Guest The Upright Man]

I could use some help with picking out a show, should I get RoH's 1st Anniversary Show or their April 12 show. 

I’ll keep this brief. In my opinion, First Anniversary was good all around show. Dragon/Joe is a really nice match and arguably Joe’s best work in ROH. The London/Styles/Ki three way is just great. Xavier also has his best match to date.

 

However, the London/Dragon match from the April 12 show is an absolute ***** classic. Easily the best match ROH has ever had. That match alone is worth the price. You definitely should pick that one up.

[Guest ShooterJay]

Nah Chunk, if the wrestlers are good, you don't have to think to understand. For example, I'm watching Honor Invades Boston Briscoe vs. Briscoe, and the "sibling rivalry" storyline is very apparent- stepping on each other's hands, slapping, etc. Also- Mark sells the leg beautifully: for example, he can't do a springboard tope to the outside because he knee is hurt. He tries it again and sells the knee in MID-AIR.

 

Also, a Punk/Cabana match in ROH. Punk hits a series of moves focused on the arm. Cabana sells the arm the entire match the rest of the night, even during the postmatch interview.

 

The announcers are supposed to help along with stuff like this, they don't always. There's no literature, watch enough and you'll get it.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"Nah Chunk, if the wrestlers are good, you don't have to think to understand. For example, I'm watching Honor Invades Boston Briscoe vs. Briscoe, and the "sibling rivalry" storyline is very apparent- stepping on each other's hands, slapping, etc. Also- Mark sells the leg beautifully: for example, he can't do a springboard tope to the outside because he knee is hurt. He tries it again and sells the knee in MID-AIR."

 

A good match should be able to guide you by itself. But often times, the best matches play off of storylines from past encounters that factor is huge to the match at hand. If you don't know the past history, the match may still be good but you will still be missing a big part of it. Plenty of AJPW classics from the 1990's did that. For ROH, 4/12 London v Danielson did that from their 12/7 ROH match and the previous weeks Super 8 storylines (of which Danielson wasn't even a part of).

 

I just don't get the "not having to think" argument. Is it really that hard to be entertained and actually try to think to see why stuff is being done?

 

Maybe it is.

 

Tim

[Guest OSIcon]

I would love to be able to sit down and watch a match like Ki/Dragon and get the pysch and story without having to think about it.

 

Is it ever possible to get to that level of understanding? Or do you think that you will always have to concentrate in order to fully apreciate a match?

 

Any literture or video tapes you would recommend to show me more about the "art" of wrestling? I like to think that if I ever made it through pro-training, I would work matches in the style of Doug Williams and AmDrag. The hidden messages in matches of guys like these, is what got me interested in wrestling again. It makes me laugh when I try to explain stuff to my mark friends and they just look at me as if im making it up.

 

Well, obviously it always takes some thinking. It's nothing different then watching a television show though that you have to sometimes think about to understand the jokes, why a character does something, ect. So there is some thinking. You just can't watch what is in front of you like you can with a show like Jackass or a match that is all big move, after big move, after big move.

 

Some people take the viewpoint that if you have to "think" during a match, its not worth watching. That is really dumb. A little thinking isn't going to kill you. All it means is keeping your eyes open for why a particualr move or sequence makes sense given the story of the match or the wrestlers past history together. The same thing has to be done with most good television shows.

 

If there are psychology elements or storyline elements in a match, I would think you would be able to figure them out by just watching fairly intentively and keeping some thoughts in the back of your mind (ie. Previous matches between the wrestlers, wrestler's strengths that maybe played up, ect.)

 

As for the "art" of wrestling, the most important thing about that (for me at least) is just paying attention to realism. That is what the wrestling art is all about: taking a worked match and making it look real and entertaining. The X-Division matches might be entertaining, but do they closely resemeble or at least try to resemble a real fight/match? I am more entertained by a match that may have a slow start with lots of headlocks then I am by a match that is all high flying moves simply because it is realistic. The art of wrestling is all about making things as real-looking as possible, while also being entertaining. Adding in elements such as building off of injuries or past matches just contributes to that.

 

I am not sure what you mean when you ask how you can learn about it more. I am hardly an expert or anything, but I would just suggest watching matches that are more story-oriented then spot-oriented. You'll see a bunch of story elements worked into a match and soon you just being to pick up little things in every match you watch and alos notice when those things are missing. Thats at least how it worked for me.

[Chunk 0]

Thanks for the advice, I guess its just something that comes with watching more wrestling. Thats something im definetly willing to do

 

Also, I didnt mean to make it sound like I thought it to much of a strain to think about a match. All I meant when I said

without having to think about it.

was sort of like when you understand something instantly and it doesnt need you to think about it, you just "get it" straight away instinctively. If you know what I mean?

 

ChUnK!