Guest Anglesault Report post Posted April 30, 2003 With Lesnar/Cena III being the third sub-par match between the two (with one being lousy), I came to thinking. There is no real reason why these two shouldn't be having good matches with each other. Separately, both have improved in boatloads over the last few months, and should honestly be having matches that don't suck against each other. The only explanation is that they don't mesh. So I got to thinking...who else should put on good-great matches but each and every time and up with sub-par outings? I'm sure more will come to me in time, but the first I can think of is Jericho/Austin. Every big singles match they've had has been less than what anyone expected, with The Choppy-Choppy NWO 2002 being a glaring example. Who else sucks together but really shouldn't? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Dames 0 Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Triple H & Angle. Angle is a great worker and when he faced HHH at Unforgiven 2000, the match was very subpar. Same goes for their Rumble '01 match. I don't know what it is, but they just can't get the magic happening...and this is 2000-01 HHH we're talking about. Dames Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RedJed Report post Posted April 30, 2003 I thought Eddy and RVD had some less than exciting matches up until their blowoff ladder match on Raw. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Triple H & Angle. Angle is a great worker and when he faced HHH at Unforgiven 2000, the match was very subpar. Same goes for their Rumble '01 match. I don't know what it is, but they just can't get the magic happening...and this is 2000-01 HHH we're talking about. Dames Yes, that's a REAL good one. And all four of their 2002 matches (One PPV, two Raws, one Smackdown) sucked ASS, but that is 2002 HHH (And Early 2002 HHH at that) so what can you expect. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest EternallyLazy Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Jericho and Steve Austin... they've had okay matches, but you would think when these two were paired together, they would blow the roof off the place and the only match I can think of that did that was the famous (although in my opinion somewhat overrated) benoit/Jericho vs. Austin/HHH match from RAW Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Jericho/Austin has already been mentioned but it is amazing two great workers like these two never click... HHH/Angle is another good point... We go forever with the Cruisers that don't mesh together... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Jericho and Steve Austin... they've had okay matches, but you would think when these two were paired together, they would blow the roof off the place and the only match I can think of that did that was the famous (although in my opinion somewhat overrated) benoit/Jericho vs. Austin/HHH match from RAW From a wrestling standpoint, No It isn't a classic but the emotions and History of that match CLEARLY elevate it to it's rightful status. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest EternallyLazy Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Hurricane with practically everyone these days... what the FUCK happened to the great worker known as Shane Helms? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted April 30, 2003 I never thought he was all that good anyways...He never clicked with Heavyweights... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest godthedog Report post Posted April 30, 2003 trips/benoit. hunter had the run of a lifetime in 2000 and benoit's one of the best wrestlers in the world, so they SHOULD HAVE had the best match of the year. but it just did not click. the flow was really choppy, on-and-off stuff. the structure was bad & paint-by-numbers: they trade working body parts, get some near-falls with big moves, then go to the finish. the finish was awesome though. i chalk it up to triple h trying to adapt to benoit's kind of match when he isn't a good technical wrestler (trips's idea of a good technical match seems to be doing all his usual stuff and working the leg a little), and benoit still trying to adapt to the wwf style. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dmann2000 Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Hart/Hall- The matches they had were decent but nothing special. Hall wasn't a horrible worker in 92/93 and Bret was a GOD. They didn't click that much. On the other spectrum, has there ever been a guy that Rock should've had a good match with and didn't. None come to my mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest EternallyLazy Report post Posted April 30, 2003 trips/benoit. hunter had the run of a lifetime in 2000 and benoit's one of the best wrestlers in the world, so they SHOULD HAVE had the best match of the year. but it just did not click. the flow was really choppy, on-and-off stuff. the structure was bad & paint-by-numbers: they trade working body parts, get some near-falls with big moves, then go to the finish. the finish was awesome though. i chalk it up to triple h trying to adapt to benoit's kind of match when he isn't a good technical wrestler (trips's idea of a good technical match seems to be doing all his usual stuff and working the leg a little), and benoit still trying to adapt to the wwf style. Which match are you talking about? I remember Benoit's debut match but I can't remember the quality... however, their pay per view match in 2000 was quite good as I remember Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Your Olympic Hero Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Triple-H & Chris Benoit Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dmann2000 Report post Posted April 30, 2003 With Lesnar/Cena III being the third sub-par match between the two (with one being lousy), I came to thinking. There is no real reason why these two shouldn't be having good matches with each other. Separately, both have improved in boatloads over the last few months, and should honestly be having matches that don't suck against each other. I think a problem maybe both are still raw and kind of green. Neither Lesnar or Cena has actually found their style I think. Brock is still conflicted between being a power monster HOSS and an amatuer with power behind his technique. Cena found his gimmik but his wrestling style still has no defenition. Is he technical? A brawler? A cheap heel cheater? A power impact wrestler? A fast high flyer? He just has moves that he does well. I say let them work with veterans a little while longer, let them find a style that works and is comfortable for them, then throw them together. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest godthedog Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Which match are you talking about? I remember Benoit's debut match but I can't remember the quality... however, their pay per view match in 2000 was quite good as I remember the no mercy match. go back & watch it again, the pacing is incredibly awkward and there's almost no flow. it's like for the first 6 minutes they said "okay, you work this body part" and then "okay, stop working on it, i'm gonna work on this body part on you now." they basically worked body parts without using any psychology. it's really contrived and just kind of makes me go "what the hell?" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dmann2000 Report post Posted April 30, 2003 trips/benoit. hunter had the run of a lifetime in 2000 and benoit's one of the best wrestlers in the world, so they SHOULD HAVE had the best match of the year. but it just did not click. the flow was really choppy, on-and-off stuff. the structure was bad & paint-by-numbers: they trade working body parts, get some near-falls with big moves, then go to the finish. the finish was awesome though. i chalk it up to triple h trying to adapt to benoit's kind of match when he isn't a good technical wrestler (trips's idea of a good technical match seems to be doing all his usual stuff and working the leg a little), and benoit still trying to adapt to the wwf style. Which match are you talking about? I remember Benoit's debut match but I can't remember the quality... however, their pay per view match in 2000 was quite good as I remember There are two groups around here, those who think HHH vs Benoit from No Mercy was great, and those who think it was a dissappointment and had no flow. I'm the former, but I respect the criticisms of the later. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest EternallyLazy Report post Posted April 30, 2003 well I don't have it... otherwise I would watch it... it's been a long time but I remember being impressed watching it live However, I've always thought HHH was overrated. His matches with Rock and Taka were good, but I just never got the "god" comparisons back in 99/00 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest godthedog Report post Posted April 30, 2003 trips/benoit. hunter had the run of a lifetime in 2000 and benoit's one of the best wrestlers in the world, so they SHOULD HAVE had the best match of the year. but it just did not click. the flow was really choppy, on-and-off stuff. the structure was bad & paint-by-numbers: they trade working body parts, get some near-falls with big moves, then go to the finish. the finish was awesome though. i chalk it up to triple h trying to adapt to benoit's kind of match when he isn't a good technical wrestler (trips's idea of a good technical match seems to be doing all his usual stuff and working the leg a little), and benoit still trying to adapt to the wwf style. Which match are you talking about? I remember Benoit's debut match but I can't remember the quality... however, their pay per view match in 2000 was quite good as I remember There are two groups around here, those who think HHH vs Benoit from No Mercy was great, and those who think it was a dissappointment and had no flow. I'm the former, but I respect the criticisms of the later. everything looked good (except the dragon suplexes), and the moves used were awesome, but it just doesn't hold together as a whole for me. in the end, it feels like a bunch of cool-looking spots thrown together. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest saturnmark4life Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Cena just wasn't ready when still confined to the midcard character, from the very limited performances of his that I've seen as a serious heel, that's his niche. I've seen no evidence that Brock wasn't great in the first place, because whilst he was given a Jesus push, it was extremely restrictive for him, and he didn't really have ANY decent opponents, save rock, who he had his best match with during his time as a heel. But that's all off topic, so nevermind. I had high hopes for Jericho/Austin, but Austin's refusal to job paired with his incompatibility with a more high-flying athletic style were always going to hurt the feud, looking back on it. Jericho still relies on spot wrestling at this relatively early stage in his career as a top-level performer, whereas Austin just beats the shit out of people. Clash of styles, bottom line. I think HHH/Angle was average to crap for pretty much the same reasons, actually. I was really hyped for Edge/Christian as well, but you got the feeling they'd pretty much decided who to push straight away, and Christian just degenerated immensely. I was his biggest fan before, but he just does NOTHING anymore. Saturn/Raven never got the hardcore match in their WWE feud I was waiting for either, but oh well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AndrewTS Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Hurricane with practically everyone these days... what the FUCK happened to the great worker known as Shane Helms? EDIT: forgot my reply. Helms became Hurricane the SPORTZ ENTERTAINER!~ I would beg to differ on Angle/HHH at Rumble 2001. It was a little slow, but I liked it. *** if the lousy ending hadn't bumped it down to about **3/4. I don't know how in the hell nobody mentioned Benoit/Eddy from Armageddon 2002. The Wild Bomb was memorable, but the match was a huge disappointment. By all rights it should have been at least ****. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest HartFan86 Report post Posted April 30, 2003 HHH/Angle and Jericho/Austin always got me. I don't get why these guys haven't had MOTYC on certain matches. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Hamburglar Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Jericho-Austin is partly plain incompatibility and partly Austin's strange fascination with making Jericho look like both a shit wrestler and a worthless jobber in every match they've ever had. Maybe Austin's way of proving his political power to Triple H? "What - you think that's burial? Check out this shit! I'll beat that Canadian bitch clean in 7 minutes the week before he wins the first Undisputed title! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!" And so forth. Lesnar will only ascend to the next stage of his continuing greatness by going heel again. The in-ring heel persona he had going by November was awesome, a fantastic mix of power, nastiness and sadism. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Hurricane with practically everyone these days... what the FUCK happened to the great worker known as Shane Helms? Really? I'm really enjoying his matches now a days. No more 1 minute matches, which is a good thing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bob_barron Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Except for the Unforgiven match I've enjoyed the Angle v. HHH matches. I thought they're Royal Rumble match was awesome. Y2J and SCSA is the most obvious one but Jericho and Booker dont seem to mesh that well either Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jobber of the Week Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Brian Kendrick and Insert WCW Cruiserweight Here. It doesn't matter if it's Noble, Shannon Moore, whoever. Kendrick's best highlight so far has been jobbing to Matt Hardy and Kurt Angle. I'm curious if Kendrick and Mysterio could blow off the roof when squared off against each other, but booking won't allow that, because the writing team can't think far enough to make a babyface vs babyface match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted April 30, 2003 I don't know how in the hell nobody mentioned Benoit/Eddy from Armageddon 2002. The Wild Bomb was memorable, but the match was a huge disappointment. By all rights it should have been at least ****. That was just a Sub-Par match...They ALWAYS click...They have had like 20 ***-***** matches... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kingpk Report post Posted May 1, 2003 Except for the Unforgiven match I've enjoyed the Angle v. HHH matches. I thought they're Royal Rumble match was awesome. But it was 80% HHH working over Angle's leg/knee and was dull as fuck until Trish and Steph went at it. The ending pretty much made Angle look as weak as can be as champ. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest creativename Report post Posted May 1, 2003 Hurricane with practically everyone these days... what the FUCK happened to the great worker known as Shane Helms? Strange, I thought Helms had been very good lately. He carried HHH to one of HHH's three best matches since his comeback. I didn't see the match myself, but everyone was expecting ****1/4+ from Benoit/Eddie, so apparently it was very disappointing. That's just one match though. Did Flair/Hart ever have a classic together? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moral suasion 0 Report post Posted May 1, 2003 I thought Eddy and RVD had some less than exciting matches up until their blowoff ladder match on Raw. I disagree. Thier Backlash 2002 match was AWESOME. I agree that HHH/Angle has disappointed, but I think thier RR '01 match is underrated. With a clean finish, that match is easily ****+. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AndrewTS Report post Posted May 1, 2003 I don't know how in the hell nobody mentioned Benoit/Eddy from Armageddon 2002. The Wild Bomb was memorable, but the match was a huge disappointment. By all rights it should have been at least ****. That was just a Sub-Par match...They ALWAYS click...They have had like 20 ***-***** matches... I don't remember them facing each other lately in singles matches, so I just cited that one. Jericho-Austin is partly plain incompatibility and partly Austin's strange fascination with making Jericho look like both a shit wrestler and a worthless jobber in every match they've ever had. Maybe Austin's way of proving his political power to Triple H? "What - you think that's burial? Check out this shit! I'll beat that Canadian bitch clean in 7 minutes the week before he wins the first Undisputed title! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!" Gee, is some one biased against Steve Austin here? I think it's fitting to bring up how Sakura notes that anytime Jericho or another smark favorite loses a match it's called "burial." He lost a match the WEEK BEFORE HIS BIGGEST WIN EVER ON THE PAY PER VIEW! Gee, he must be being buried, right? It took ONLY 7 minutes to beat him, you say? Holy crap, what a horrible jobber squash that was; blink and you'll miss the match. Funny, I don't remember this match at all. However, by your description it must have been 7 minutes of Austin mostly no-selling Jericho's offense or not letting him get in any offense while Austin slaughtered him. Right? That's not burial. This would be burial: after a horribly booked reign where your main finisher was the belt shot, and you were fetching lotion and cleaning up dog crap while your opponent's ex-wife (in the storyline) has most of the attention on her, you get to job at Wrestlemania, then two months later job again to the same opponent in a hell in a cell match, are KOed by an open-hand slap on the face from a rookie then job to him in two lousy matches (one on PPV) all the while your submission finisher is constantly escaped from and made to look completely non-threatening...well, I could go on, but you get the picture. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
