Ultimo NOT to debut at JD.

[Guest Sakura]

Why not just ask around to see what casual fans you can get that agree with you? I'm sure you could find people at indy shows that would help you out.

Because it seems hopeless.

[Guest Memphis]

Downhome, pull the stick out of your ass and lighten the fuck up.

 

M

Yet another insightfull post by a fellow member of TSM.

It saved me having to go out on a tirade and disect all the comments you've made that prove your too uptight for your own good.

 

Fact of the matter is if your not with the cure then your apart of the disease. In other words, I'm all for you ordering whatever WWE show you want however as long as you know you endorse Triple H vs Kevin Nash and Big Show being placed above Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, John Cena and a host of others who are lightyears ahead of him.

 

If your comfortable with straight out telling Vince McMahon what he is doing now is 'Ok', then I have no problem with your decision because at least your sticking to your beliefs.

 

M

[Guest Downhome]

DH, I will agree with you that the quad tear jokes are not funny due to their overuse, and wishing a wrestler death has no place in a message board or elsewhere.

 

As for the back-and-forth discussion, I like that. However, I find that too often the other side just gives up, or flame baits.

 

I remember when we would discuss Nathan Jones. You thought he was worth it because he "moves well for a big man" and has a "look and intensity similar to Goldberg", and criticized those who bashed him without seeing him. I, who had seen him, thought he wasn't worth the hype with the vignettes and the announcers acting like he was a big deal. He debuted, was given a WM spot, and the match had to be changed due to his ineptness. Instead of saying that you might have been mistaken, you claimed that they were "holding off what he can do" and of course, absolutely loved it. Then he was bitched out by the Full Blooded Italijobbers and hasn't been seen since. Now that he isn't even mentioned on the shows anymore, answer me this: was it worth the hype?

 

Like Sakura, I want to like WWE, they just don't offer a lot of reasons to do so. I do not understand why anyone would want to buy what Judgment Day is selling, but if you're going to give me a reason, please let it be better than "it's just $17.95", otherwise just let it be. You know the saying: "It is better to be thought the fool...."

 

Anyway, I doubt it's even worthwhile for me to go out and poll people, as wrestling isn't even a big deal where I live.

Ok, now THIS is discussing something using your brain, thank you.

 

1) Concerning Nathan Jones, you were all right about him and I'll admit it. I almost made a post about him last night actually, but didn't think it was worth my time. As of right now, the ONLY thing I see in the guy is his promos and his spin kick, which I do like. The last match he was in, he did a "big" boot. My cousin looked at me and said "what will you do if he wins with that" and I said really quick that he would instantly become one of my least favorite wrestlers, and about that time the three count went down, and that was that.

 

I hate the guy myself right now, and wish for him to either go to OVW and REALLY train up, or to just be let go.

 

2) I'm paying $17.95 for more reasons than just because it doens't cost all that much. I'm paying that money for the ladder match, the battle royal (which I love, even though there isn't much to them, I can't really explain why but I ALWAYS have liked those types of matches), not to mention I think it'll be cool as hell for someone to win the belt once again finally. If someone like Test just gets the strap, and it's a total let down, then so be it, I will have been wrong once again, and I really don't care. I pay for the PPVs, when I even order them, just waiting for something great to take place, because in this business you never know for sure when that will be.

 

I know the PPVs haven't been great lately, but I have enjoyed what I've seen overall for the most part when I've ordered them. Besides, a PPV for me when I order it really means something. It's not JUST the show that I watch, but it's my watching it with other people that really can make it entertaining and money well spent. It's not JUST the PPV, it's a lot of factors that I enjoy.

[LooseCannon25 0]

For me it's like this.......am i happy witht he WWE right now? No i think they suck huge donkey balls right now and can't stand some of the shit they do. However, i've been watching it for 19 years and i've never stopped watching. I AM getting fed up with some of the crap, but there's one problem. And that's guys like Angle,Jericho, Benoit, Hardy, Guerrero, Lesnar, Cena, Booker T, Edge, Christian who I tune in to watch every monday and thursday. Those guys entertain and as long as they put on great matches and are great workers and entertaining then i dont think i'll stop watching. I've been watching almost all my life, and it's not easy for me to just tune it out just like that.

[Guest Downhome]

Why not just ask around to see what casual fans you can get that agree with you? I'm sure you could find people at indy shows that would help you out.

Because it seems hopeless.

Point taken, if that's how you feel and you don't want to at least try, then so be it. I still think it would be worth the shot at least, you might be suprised, and hell, I might even be suprised. I know for a FACT that most who go to NWA Wildside shows are not pleased with WWE, and most are NOT "net fans".

 

You just need some sort of starting point, and maybe, just maybe, you could get a mass 100% boycott of WWE off the ground. Hell, it might even HELP the indy scene in the end.

[Guest Memphis]

If anything I admire DH's work ethic for wading through EVERY question and statement directed at him and responding to it.

 

Triple H wishes he had this.

 

M

[Guest Sakura]

The way I see it, casual fans are jsut that....casual fans. Why should I try to get them involved? They're just casual fans. If we can't get people at THIS forum motivated I dont see how a bunch of casual fans are going to get worked up enough to.

 

 

 

For me it's like this.......am i happy witht he WWE right now? No i think they suck huge donkey balls right now and can't stand some of the shit they do. However, i've been watching it for 19 years and i've never stopped watching. I AM getting fed up with some of the crap, but there's one problem. And that's guys like Angle,Jericho, Benoit, Hardy, Guerrero, Lesnar, Cena, Booker T, Edge, Christian who I tune in to watch every monday and thursday. Those guys entertain and as long as they put on great matches and are great workers and entertaining then i dont think i'll stop watching. I've been watching almost all my life, and it's not easy for me to just tune it out just like that.

 

 

 

Why watch because you have for 19 years? Vince doesn't care! Doesn't that piss you off? Don't you want to see the guys you listed in better positions? Instead of watching a show you know sucks for a few guys why not help them force a change so that you can watch a show that is 100% entertaining and has the guys you like in a better spot?

 

It's not easy for any of us to tune it out. Eventually I realized that watching for just a few guys and to be loyal was a waste of my time.

[Guest Downhome]

For me it's like this.......am i happy witht he WWE right now? No i think they suck huge donkey balls right now and can't stand some of the shit they do. However, i've been watching it for 19 years and i've never stopped watching. I AM getting fed up with some of the crap, but there's one problem. And that's guys like Angle,Jericho, Benoit, Hardy, Guerrero, Lesnar, Cena, Booker T, Edge, Christian who I tune in to watch every monday and thursday. Those guys entertain and as long as they put on great matches and are great workers and entertaining then i dont think i'll stop watching. I've been watching almost all my life, and it's not easy for me to just tune it out just like that.

That pretty much sums me up also. Guys, I fucking OBVIOUSLY know that WWE is not at it's best right now and there are many problems, but that has never stopped me from watching before. Pro. Wrestling goes in cycles where it is both great for years, and then sucky for years. It's just the way it is, and contrary to popular belief, I truly feel that it will eventually become great once again. The thing is, you never know when that will happen, and quite frankly, I don't want to miss it when it happens.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If I lived through WWE in the early 90's and various points in WCW, I can stick with what WWE has right now.

 

I'm willing so waddle through a LOT of shit, in order to witness that piece of gold, it's just worth it to me. I have many problems with WWE right now, as I have had with various companies thoughout history, but I don't think we need to get into those right now, save that for another thread, lol.

[Guest Downhome]

The way I see it, casual fans are jsut that....casual fans. Why should I try to get them involved? They're just casual fans. If we can't get people at THIS forum motivated I dont see how a bunch of casual fans are going to get worked up enough to.

That is partly true, but THOSE people should be the target, those should be the ones you truly want to get involved. Like it or not, MANY net fans will never stop watching, it's just the way things are. With the more casual fans however, I'm sure there are guys out there ready to give up. You need to find them, and make THEM part of your plans, etc...

[Guest Sakura]

But you realize by supporting them in the "down cycle" you're part of the reason there's the down cycle to begin with...right?

[Guest Memphis]

For me it's like this.......am i happy witht he WWE right now?  No    i think they suck huge donkey balls right now and can't stand some of the shit they do.  However, i've been watching it for 19 years and i've never stopped watching.  I AM getting fed up with some of the crap, but there's one problem.  And that's guys like Angle,Jericho, Benoit, Hardy, Guerrero, Lesnar, Cena, Booker T, Edge, Christian who I tune in to watch every monday and thursday.  Those guys entertain and as long as they put on great matches and are great workers and entertaining then i dont think i'll stop watching.  I've been watching almost all my life, and it's not easy for me to just tune it out just like that.

That pretty much sums me up also. Guys, I fucking OBVIOUSLY know that WWE is not at it's best right now and there are many problems, but that has never stopped me from watching before. Pro. Wrestling goes in cycles where it is both great for years, and then sucky for years. It's just the way it is, and contrary to popular belief, I truly feel that it will eventually become great once again. The thing is, you never know when that will happen, and quite frankly, I don't want to miss it when it happens.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If I lived through WWE in the early 90's and various points in WCW, I can stick with what WWE has right now.

 

I'm willing so waddle through a LOT of shit, in order to witness that piece of gold, it's just worth it to me. I have many problems with WWE right now, as I have had with various companies thoughout history, but I don't think we need to get into those right now, save that for another thread, lol.

To be honest, WCW cira late 99 to very early 2000 was much worse than WWE is now.

 

The thing is though, you have to hope Vince's company doesn't explode BEFORE the boom period comes back (if it does, that is). WCW failed to hang on in time and it had Ted Turner throwing billions at it.

 

I think the most of us bitch due to the fact we're paranoid about the company dying. No-one wants that to happen.

 

M

[Guest Sakura]

Sometimes I do wish they would go out of business. I feel like Vince and his hosses have taken away my hobby and I want them to fail for it.

 

It's like if Vince is going to treat his fans liek shit he deserves to lose all his money.

[LooseCannon25 0]

The way I see it, casual fans are jsut that....casual fans. Why should I try to get them involved? They're just casual fans. If we can't get people at THIS forum motivated I dont see how a bunch of casual fans are going to get worked up enough to.

 

 

 

For me it's like this.......am i happy witht he WWE right now? No i think they suck huge donkey balls right now and can't stand some of the shit they do. However, i've been watching it for 19 years and i've never stopped watching. I AM getting fed up with some of the crap, but there's one problem. And that's guys like Angle,Jericho, Benoit, Hardy, Guerrero, Lesnar, Cena, Booker T, Edge, Christian who I tune in to watch every monday and thursday. Those guys entertain and as long as they put on great matches and are great workers and entertaining then i dont think i'll stop watching. I've been watching almost all my life, and it's not easy for me to just tune it out just like that.

 

 

 

Why watch because you have for 19 years? Vince doesn't care! Doesn't that piss you off? Don't you want to see the guys you listed in better positions? Instead of watching a show you know sucks for a few guys why not help them force a change so that you can watch a show that is 100% entertaining and has the guys you like in a better spot?

 

It's not easy for any of us to tune it out. Eventually I realized that watching for just a few guys and to be loyal was a waste of my time.

You make a valid point..........Ok, let me make a comparison and hopefully you guys will be able to feel me on this.

 

I love baseball......played it since i was little.....been watching it since i was like 5. Unfortunately, I love The New York Mets......everybody who knows anything about baseball knows that the Mets are an AWFUL team right now and suck ass. THey have one of the highest payrolls and are a last place team. They seem to have no heart and are filled with overpaid lazy, unmotivated players. Even though they're terrible and are a last place team i STILL watch them when i can because they're MY team, and i love baseball.

 

The reason why i brought that up is this.........You telling me to just stop watching wrestling is like telling me to stop watching the MEts play. It's not fair because those are things that i have a passion for. You guys are almost always right in your arguments and are justified in being fed up with the garbage WWE is putting out right now and for the past few years. I want them to use the guys i mentioned in my last post better. I want the fuckin constant hoss pushing to stop! And i want them to stop fuckin insulting my intelligence with stupid storylines. However, there is no alternative right now like WCW or ECW so what am I gonna watch? ROH? CZW? There's no Angle, Benoit, Mysterio, Lesnar, or JEricho over there. These guys entertain me and on mondays and thursdays i tune in to watch only them.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I just explained that, the reason was to relay the information about Ultimo and what he said in his interview.

 

No, no, no... You're not getting it.

 

"What I don't get is why did Downhome make a thread about him buying Judgement Day... "

 

See, you made that thread a personal thread. You didn't just say "Ultimo Dragon is going to be at Judgement Day" you said that you were going to buy the PPV because Ultimo was on it. Then you act surprised when people start questioning your motivation for buying PPVs and commenting on it. YOU BROUGHT IT UP.

[Guest Memphis]

I honestly believe Vince McMahon doesn't think he is treating his fans unfairly. In his head he is telling himself over and over that Triple H, Kevin Nash, Big Show et al. will turn the company around because they *look* like guys who should be big stars.

 

Old age will do that to you.

 

M

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

I personally cannot stand the "down cycle" retort. The down cycle did not cause Vince to deliberately screw up the Invasion angle. It did not cause Vince to bring back everyone under the sun. It did not cause Vince to stick to his outdated values that "bigger=better" and "rehashing the same angle will produce the same results". The down cycle was not the reason the name "WWF" is no more. Vince made his own decisions, and the 'down cycle' is just a horrible, horrible excuse.

 

Finally, backtracking a bit...

 

I pay for the PPVs, when I even order them, just waiting for something great to take place, because in this business you never know for sure when that will be.

 

I very much doubt it will take place on Judgment Day. Just a hunch.

 

About the original subject - what the heck would Ultimo Dragon DO? There is no cruiserweight match as of yet and I doubt there will be. What would be his impact? To keep A-Train at bay as Brock beats Show? You know that nothing good can come from that....

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Memphis, Vince McMahon looks at the fans as marks. He doesn't do things for the best interest of the fans. His job is to work the marks (or trick/con the fans) into giving him money. He doesn't care if the fans enjoy it or not as long as he is getting his money and justifying to shareholders to keep their money with him.

[Guest Sakura]

Believe me Cannon, I know how you feel. I really do. I am guessing all of us do. We all had the passion. Not watching is a gradual thing. First it was Jakked, then Heat, then SD, then ppvs, then RAW, ect.

[Guest Downhome]

But you realize by supporting them in the "down cycle" you're part of the reason there's the down cycle to begin with...right?

That is where we disagree, I don't think Vince would change what he's doing right now if millions of people were watching, or if no one was watching. It's been proven over and over again that he does what HE wants to do, regardless of the ratings and whatnot.

 

I just like watching, period. I love it when it's great, and I watch it just for shits when it's not, it's in my blood, I've always watched Pro. Wrestling and I always will in any form I can take it. I mean, fucking hell, I'm the type of guy that watches EVERY piece of Pro. Wrestling that I can. I never missed an episode of WOW for crying out loud.

 

The net fans mean nothing to Vince, NOTHING, and WWE has made that perfectly clear. If anything he's obviously MOCKED us at times on his programs. I know it hurts to hear it, but as net fans Vince could care less. He cares about the majority of WWE fans which are those that just watch it at home, take it for just another TV show, and that's that. Vince knows that there are far more casual fans than net fans, and those are the people he will end up listening to, which is why I keep saying over and over again to get THEM involved, it's the only way for the fans as a whole to change anything.

 

Vince is Vince, he does the same things that he always has and the man will never change. He's going to push older stars, he always has. He's going to push the hossi, he always has. He's going to push younger stars who can really get around every so offten, he always has. He's going to do whatever the fuck he wants, he always has.

 

Untill the fans, the ones that matters to Vince, decides to just totally stop watching, he will not change. One more thing...

 

...I think the TRUE reason that Vince has been so slack for the past while, is simply the lack of competition. I am willing to bet most of us can agree on that. If you do not feel that you can get the casual fans involved, then focus your energy on making it known that NWA TNA has fans. Work your ass off to help THEM get a TV deal, or another fed of the sort.

 

Many people are just going to watch WWE simply because it's WWE. If there was some sort of competition and they are given a choice, then that might help things a great deal.

 

Why not help spread the word about TNA? Fuck, contact Jerry Jarrett himself and talk to him about coming up with some sort of official promotion done by the fans themselves. He's VERY easy to get ahold of, I've done it myself through email MANY times, and have friends on other sites who have contacted him by phone for various things.

 

As I said, just be creative, it's not "hopeless".

[Guest Sakura]

One thing I have never understood about Vince is that on one hand he wants it to be like the old days. He wants it to be like 1987 and we're all marks and suckers who love our big "larger than life" hosses. He wants desperatly to believe the internet fans are just marks and that the smart crowd is 2 guys with copies of the Observer.

 

But then he wants to be modern and hip. He's not a rasslin promoter, he "makes movies" and has an "Action/Adventure" program.

[LooseCannon25 0]

I never wtach Heat or Velocity if that makes you guys feel a little better

 

I think we can all agree on one thing at least.......Vince McMahon is an asshole who doesnt give a shit about any one of his fans except for the green in their wallets and pockets. He thinks he can tell us what WE want. If this shit keeps up this way he will come to a harsh reality that you need to keep your fanbase happy and please them.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

You don't understand that?

 

It's simple... Vince McMahon is a moron.

[Guest Downhome]

I never wtach Heat or Velocity if that makes you guys feel a little better

 

I think we can all agree on one thing at least.......Vince McMahon is an asshole who doesnt give a shit about any one of his fans except for the green in their wallets and pockets. He thinks he can tell us what WE want. If this shit keeps up this way he will come to a harsh reality that you need to keep your fanbase happy and please them.

I almost never watch Heat or Velocity either, if it matters, lol.

 

I will agree with that. There will come a time however, as it always happens, where Vince will wake up for some reason and decide to put the strap on guys like Bret, HBK, Angle, Austin, Rocky, Mick, and other guys most of us love.

 

Maybe "downcycle" is a bad term for it. It's just a period in which Vince and Co. are lazy for some reason or another. I don't know what to call it, but these "cycles" do take place every so offten, it's been that way for every fed in every generation basicly.

[Guest Sakura]

So there's no method to his madness. He's just dumb?

 

 

Yeah, ok. I can see that.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

He cares about the majority of WWE fans which are those that just watch it at home, take it for just another TV show, and that's that.

Yet it is not just that. What other TV show wants you to pay $30 for a glorified version of the regular show once a month, WITHOUT QUESTION, and expects you to love it?

 

Many people are just going to watch WWE simply because it's WWE.

 

Fine. I can do the same - just treat it like another TV show. But there was a point where I really, really wanted to care for it and spend money on it, and over and over again I regretted caring so much. And when it comes down to it I don't really want that.

[Guest Downhome]

I think a great deal of the problem is that Vince has reached an age at this point where he is out of touch with his target audience. Didn't the same thing happen with HIS dad before Jr. took over? Hell, doesn't this sort of thing happen in other aspects of entertainment?

[LooseCannon25 0]

Damn right he's lazy and slacking off......and i think it's because he isnt getting his ass handed to him on monday nights anymore in the ratings war byt scores of 4.2 - 2.3. He has no competition to light a fire under his ass anymore.

[Guest Downhome]

So there's no method to his madness. He's just dumb?

 

 

Yeah, ok. I can see that.

Like I said, I truly think he's just out of touch with his audience. That not news to any of you, but that is the biggest problem. He needs to realize that what once worked, will not work in this day and age especially now that the big secret of Pro. Wrestling has "come out".

 

You would think he would realize this however, seeing how he had a HUGE hand in allowing the "secret" to become common knowledge, heh.

[Guest Sakura]

He can't just be out of touch. What kind of businessman, even an out of touch one, would actually INSULT part of his fanbase? It's not just ignoring us like someone out of touch does...he flat out HATES us.

 

That's dumb.

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

So there's no method to his madness. He's just dumb?

 

 

Yeah, ok. I can see that.

Like I said, I truly think he's just out of touch with his audience. That not news to any of you, but that is the biggest problem. He needs to realize that what once worked, will not work in this day and age especially now that the big secret of Pro. Wrestling has "come out".

 

You would think he would realize this however, seeing how he had a HUGE hand in allowing the "secret" to become common knowledge, heh.

There's a difference between being "out of touch" with your audience and showing spite, hatred and loathing for them. Vincent McMahon has shown the latter.