The Dames 0 Report post Posted May 22, 2003 I also factor in his fielding as CLUTCH... I can't dispute that. Then again, I'm a biased Yankee fan which is why I'll shut up now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest alkeiper Report post Posted May 22, 2003 Clutch my ass. So what's his excuse for loafing the non-clutch plays? I don't buy clutch as a skill, period. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted May 22, 2003 Clutch is VERY much a skill... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DrTom Report post Posted May 22, 2003 Clutch is certainly not a skill. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Some Guy Report post Posted May 22, 2003 I think it could be argued that its a talent, but not really a skill. You can't really learn ot be "clutch". Some guys have it and others don't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest alkeiper Report post Posted May 23, 2003 It's just luck, IMO. After all, what does being clutch mean? Look at Jack Morris. He's glorified for his performance in the '91 WS, but he absolutely sucked the year after in the WS. I won't deny that Jeter came up with clutch hits, but he's no more likely to do so in the future than any other player of similar ability. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Some Guy Report post Posted May 23, 2003 Jack Morris was old in 91, he gave teh performances of a a lifetime against the Braves and that was his last hurrah. Look at Randy Johnson's WS starts, Pedro coming in in game 5 of the 99 ALDS and no hitting the Indians (the best offesnive team in MLB) for 6 innings and then look at Roger Clemens' showing against the Sox in the 99 ALDS and in 88 against the A's. It could be argued that all three pitchers are of similar ability but Johnson and Pedro did what Roger has had trouble doing, they came through in the clutch. It's a mental mindset that some guys have. Manny Ramirez doesn't seem to think and that's how he does it, Jeter seems to lock himself in another mindset beyond what he would normally be in. The great clutch guys have another level and the great regular seasons guys don't. I don't think that it can be learned, skills can be learned, it is a natural talent and "you can't teach talent" as the saying goes. I could buy inot your luck theory if a guy hits a check swing blooper over the first baseman's head but hitting a solid game winning hit is not luck. Luis Gonzales' hit to win the 2001 WS could be thought of as luck, Dave Henderson's HR off Donny Moore in the 86 ALCS was not luck. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest alkeiper Report post Posted May 23, 2003 Jack Morris was old in 91, he gave teh performances of a a lifetime against the Braves and that was his last hurrah. Good point, but Morris went 21-6 in 1992. He clearly had something left that year. It could be argued that all three pitchers are of similar ability but Johnson and Pedro did what Roger has had trouble doing, they came through in the clutch. It's a mental mindset that some guys have. Manny Ramirez doesn't seem to think and that's how he does it, Jeter seems to lock himself in another mindset beyond what he would normally be in. The great clutch guys have another level and the great regular seasons guys don't. Clemens is respectable in the postseason, and he's been terrific in the postseason (3-0). Randy Johnson, before 2001, was noted for his postseason failures, having gone on an 0-7 drought before the Atlanta series. The more I look at it, the more postseason performance is a non-issue. Look at Jeter's overall stats. AVG/OBP/SLG Career .317/.389/.463 Postseason .314/.381/.469 Almost the same really. I think what I'm trying to say is that players are the same regardless of postseason, clutch, or what-not. The more at bats/innings pitched, the more the stats level out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DrTom Report post Posted May 23, 2003 The more at bats/innings pitched, the more the stats level out. Right, which is why I say that "Clutch" is not a skill. Perhaps some guys are simply better in pressure situations than others, but that's something that transcends the sporting arena. Players who are "clutch" generally do well over a small sample of games, when they could simply be riding a hot streak. Example: some chap is a .400 career hitter with the bases loaded. There are people who will say how he always comes thru in the clutch. But let's look at why that might be: (1) Pitchers will try to avoid walking in the run, thus throwing more balls over the plate, (2) Defensive alignment often changes with the bases loaded, creating more gaps in the field, and (3) Hitters can take aggressive swings because they know they'll be pitched to, even in a count that doesn't favor them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Vern Gagne Report post Posted May 23, 2003 Alot of times I look clutch situations as either the pitcher doesn't come through if the batter gets a hit, or the batter chokes if they don't get the big hit. The Braves and Twins both squandered many opportunities in that Game 7. Sid Bream hitting into a 2-3-2 Double play comes to mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest alkeiper Report post Posted May 23, 2003 How does he choke when he only had a 25-30% chance of collecting a hit anyway? Lonnie Smith however did choke. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Vern Gagne Report post Posted May 23, 2003 He did the worse possible thing he could of done. A doubleplay. Any other kind of out would of been better. So not only did he not come through, he made it worse by hitting into a doubleplay. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest alkeiper Report post Posted May 23, 2003 True, but I don't consider that choking. If he hits the ball an inch higher/lower, maybe he hits it out. People don't appreciate how difficult hitting really is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
