Limosine Ridin', Jet Plane Flyin', WOOOOOOOO!

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

The same amount of wrestlers worship the guy for the same reasons that guys on this board praise him: Because it's the cool thing to do and it's accepted as the gospel, when there is obviously evidence to the contrary.

 

But it seems that on this board evidence counts for nothing. Oh well.

Edited May 24, 2003 by Lord of The Curry

[Guest The Grand Pubah of 1620]

The same amount of wrestlers worship the guy for the same reasons that guys on this board praise him: Because it's the cool thing to do and it's accepted as the gospel, when there is obviously evidence to the contrary.

 

But it seems that on this board evidence counts for nothing. Oh well.

The evidence has been presented and you are unwilling to take it. To like Flair isn't the "cool" thing to do. That is something that you tell yourself because you want to be different. Just agree to disagree and let the be that. To continue this argument only makes you look ignorant to the things Flair accomplished during his prime.

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

I don't tell myself anything but the truth and the truth is thus: Ric Flair is overrated. Grossly overrated.

 

One day you'll realize what good wrestling is, honest. Flair has had some good matches in his career but there are many out there he can't touch and never will touch.

 

I am fully aware of what Flair has accomplished in his prime. Wrestling the same match for 20 years isn't exactly something to be proud of, ya know......

[Guest The Grand Pubah of 1620]

I realize now that Flair was the best in his prime. Have you ever heard of signature moves? Flair has them and uses them. We aren't talking Greco Roman here, this is "rasslin". He was"the man" and will continue to be the man. Because the "sport" will never be what it was when he was on top.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Flair was charismatic, could cut a great promo, and had some classic wrestling matches; he was the alternative for many to Hulk Hogan. I can't exactly explain why he is the patron saint of workers, but the contrast between him and hogan probably has something to do with it (given that the majority of flair marks, in my experience with them, *hate* hulk hogan).

 

Also, Flair was the best out of those around him. Of course, with the evolution of wrestling his best in relation to the raised bar, falls short. In just a few years Flairs best was being dwarfed by guys like Benoit, Lyger, Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Guerrero who could not only have great workrate, but perform different styles, incorporate a wide variety of moves and still leave in the psychological elements, and just generally perform much better matches. Even still, at the same time, if Jumbo Tsuruta had the coverage in the US and Americans weren't inherantly xenophobic and biased against the Japanese, Flair wouldn't have been considered the best.

 

And of course, there is hype.

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

^

 

What he said.

[Guest The Grand Pubah of 1620]

I agree with what he said too, but Flair laid the foundation that those guys wrestled on.

 

Also, Puro's aside, how many wrestlers that you know don't use the same repititions in their matches?

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

So Flair laid the foundation for repititive matches and spots? I thought so.......

[Guest The Grand Pubah of 1620]

You are a hopeless case.

Edited May 24, 2003 by Johnson1620

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

He's not hopeless, he's actually a fan of Flair - as am I - we just don't happen to hold him in the same light as most people here do.

[Guest godthedog]

You've come to the wrong folder is you wanted consistency. The fact remains, Flair's work, however psychologically groundbreaking or influential (which I can't see at all in todays wrestlers) remains horribly repititive and boring. I cannot remember ever seeing a Flair match and saying "Wow! That's different" or "Hey, he's changed his stategic plans to fit the match."

what about the 'i quit' match with funk? i don't think that match is even really that good, but it's something different.

 

guys like misawa, kawada, et al, do of course blow him out of the water, and the point about repetitiveness is well taken, but american wrestling in general is very generic & formulaic. even bret hart, who's credited as a guy who was doing different things than the rest of his company, has very little variation in his matches: always using the same 5 moves to make a babyface comeback, always working the leg as a heel, etc.

[Guest Choken One]

Misawa can do all the shining wizards he wants...He still can't Style and Profile like the Nature Boy.

[Guest The Grand Pubah of 1620]

even bret hart, who's credited as a guy who was doing different things than the rest of his company, has very little variation in his matches: always using the same 5 moves to make a babyface comeback, always working the leg as a heel, etc.

Or Benoit, Eddie, or anybody else that is a professional wrestler.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

No Johnson Benoit and Eddie have incorporated a variety of different styles and movesets into their matches, case in point if you watched a Flair match in 1982 and one in 1992 they'd both be good but fairly similar, then watch Benoit in 1993 and now, there's a HUGE difference in the style he's wrestling

[Guest NoSelfWorth]

Misawa can do all the shining wizards he wants...He still can't Style and Profile like the Nature Boy.

If Misawa ever does a shining wizard, it'll be his first. Muto does the shining wizard. And of course Misawa can't style and profile like Flair. Misawa doesn't get drunk and pull down his trousers.

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

You've come to the wrong folder is you wanted consistency. The fact remains, Flair's work, however psychologically groundbreaking or influential (which I can't see at all in todays wrestlers) remains horribly repititive and boring. I cannot remember ever seeing a Flair match and saying "Wow! That's different" or "Hey, he's changed his stategic plans to fit the match."

what about the 'i quit' match with funk? i don't think that match is even really that good, but it's something different.

 

guys like misawa, kawada, et al, do of course blow him out of the water, and the point about repetitiveness is well taken, but american wrestling in general is very generic & formulaic. even bret hart, who's credited as a guy who was doing different things than the rest of his company, has very little variation in his matches: always using the same 5 moves to make a babyface comeback, always working the leg as a heel, etc.

I'm talking about style, not the gimmickery of a match. Flair has never wrestled anything beyond the U.S heavyweight style. No real matwork, strong style, flying to be seen in his repitoire, yet he's the guy who supposedly can do no wrong in the ring.

[Guest OnlyMe]

I like Flair, but I wouldn't ask anyone else to.

 

I have enjoyed a LOT of his matches, to a greater extent than probably any other worker.

 

If you disagree, fine. But don't try to convince me I am wrong.

[Guest Flyboy]

The same amount of wrestlers worship the guy for the same reasons that guys on this board praise him: Because it's the cool thing to do and it's accepted as the gospel, when there is obviously evidence to the contrary.

I hate to say it, but that statement right there is true.

 

Sure, Flair can bring EMOTION~! to a match, but if I'm seeing the same shit that I saw the last time Flair wrestled with the same EMOTION~! that he has brought what's the point? What's the big deal?

 

People are taken up by the aura of Flair, and they find it hard to find an error in this legend when there are many available. Simple.

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

Now why can't we all just be like Flyboy and see the truth in it? I like Flair, sometimes I like him a lot, I'm just not blind to his faults.

[Guest Flyboy]

Now why can't we all just be like Flyboy and see the truth in it?

I guess it's hard not being a sheep.

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

Especially when Flair is concerned.

 

Flair marks = HHH marks in 2000. Maybe worse.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

Most people are sheep in some respect

 

the WWE marks flock to Flair and Bret

the Puro kids flock to Kawada and the indy mutants flock to Low Ki and Daniels

 

it's just the done thing I guess

[Guest EternallyLazy]

Especially when Flair is concerned.

 

Flair marks = HHH marks in 2000. Maybe worse.

No, I can't agree with that comparison at all. I was never a HHH mark, even in 2000. I liked the guy, and thought he was okay, but I never understood the reason why people like Scott Keith referred to him as "god."

 

HHH '00 cannot touch Flair in any way, because HHH has never had the natural charisma that Flair possessed. Besides, whether you like him or not, Flair wrestled... yes, I will agree that he rarely changed his style, but his use of psychology, ring charisma, and basic wrestling always made me, and others obviously... a fan. The only time I saw HHH put on any resemblance of a wrestling match in '00 was the Iron Man match with Rocky, and I think, while the match is entertaining and good, is overrated. Other than that, I remember being bored with all of the punchy kicky stuff, and that's why I could never understand why people loved him then.

 

Yes, Flair wrestled a similar match many many times... but it doesn't bother me, because I love the man. He entertains me more than anyone else. While the puro guys you mentioned are great workers, I could care less about them because they don't entertain me. I never said you HAD to like Flair. I understand your thinking... but what got me was that you sounded like such an expert, as if you know more than the actual wrestlers. You call them sheep... when they're the ones who are out there busting their asses. So if a guy like the Hurricane says that Ric Flair is the greatest wrestler of all time, or a man like Jim Ross who has more experience and wrestling knowledge than you and I could ever possible hope to have (no matter how much flack he gets from the IWC) then I am going to understand their opinions, more than some person on a message board.

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

I wasn't comparing Flair to HHH. That's just nutty. What I am doing is comparing Flair marks to the way HHH marks acted in 2000 aka being very blind.

[Guest wildpegasus]

To Eternally Lazy:

 

IMO almost everyone is more knowledgable about wrestling than Ross. I'd take almost anyone's opinion before his when it concerns wrestling.

Edited May 25, 2003 by wildpegasus

[Guest EternallyLazy]

To Eternally Lazy:

 

IMO almost everyone is more knowledgable about wrestling than Ross. I'd take almost anyone's opinion before his when it concerns wrestling.

Jim Ross may be somewhat of a tool now, but the guy has had what, nearl 30 years of experience in the business? Just because he has had some pretty embarrassing times lately doesn't mean the guy doesn't know what he's talking about. To assume other wise is just smark arrogance

[Guest The Grand Pubah of 1620]

The same amount of wrestlers worship the guy for the same reasons that guys on this board praise him: Because it's the cool thing to do and it's accepted as the gospel, when there is obviously evidence to the contrary.

I hate to say it, but that statement right there is true.

 

Sure, Flair can bring EMOTION~! to a match, but if I'm seeing the same shit that I saw the last time Flair wrestled with the same EMOTION~! that he has brought what's the point? What's the big deal?

 

People are taken up by the aura of Flair, and they find it hard to find an error in this legend when there are many available. Simple.

You are in the same boat as LOTC, Flyboy. You weren't even thought about when Flair was in his prime.

[Guest Flyboy]

The same amount of wrestlers worship the guy for the same reasons that guys on this board praise him: Because it's the cool thing to do and it's accepted as the gospel, when there is obviously evidence to the contrary.

I hate to say it, but that statement right there is true.

 

Sure, Flair can bring EMOTION~! to a match, but if I'm seeing the same shit that I saw the last time Flair wrestled with the same EMOTION~! that he has brought what's the point? What's the big deal?

 

People are taken up by the aura of Flair, and they find it hard to find an error in this legend when there are many available. Simple.

You are in the same boat as LOTC, Flyboy. You weren't even thought about when Flair was in his prime.

And there's a magic thing called... *gasps* the INTERNET that lets you see Flair in his prime. Oh, what's that... there are videotapes as well!

 

Please.

[Gert T 0]

My biggest problem in this whole debate is the points of "*****" matches. I know its been beaten to death, but its all subjective, I mean there is no ratings manual. I would like to see the 92 tag match you spoke of, but only being familiar with Kroffat's work, I would have no emotional attachment to the match, which I do believe plays a big part in the "ratings". However at the same time I would want to believe it is a ***** match because others have said so. I saw Steamboat-Flair from WW 89 for the first time three years ago and may not have thought of it as 5 stars as opposed to Austin-Bret from WM 13 because I had not seen programming leading up to it so there was some emotional involvement.

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

The hotter-then-hell crowd forces you to get emotionally involved in the match. You'll marvel at the dickish heel tactics of Furnas and Kroffat. You'll root for Kikuchi, who makes a fabulous underdog. Most of all, you'll cheer the everloving shit out of Mr. Kenta Kobashi and watch as the smallest of facial expressions and body language gets the crowd on it's feet.

 

I'll say this much. If the ending to that match doesn't make you mark the fuck out, you have no soul.