Ric Flair: A Double Question

May 21, 2003

itd be great w/ Flair as champ...just syaing

Why though?

Just saying... means diddly squat.

I love Flair but he should be built up first if they're going to give him a title. He jobbed to Rico, RVD and basically has been getting his ass kicked since October- and now he gets to be the top guy on RAW? No- that wouldn't work.

So let's give the belt to Nash. That's the ticket.

HHH flat out refuses to Job the belt to Booker RVD Jericho or whomever. If the belt has to go to somone HHH has wet dreams about, I pick Flair.

The ending last night was perfectly fine. Why the hell would you need to save the heat of Flair with a screwjob ending? A non-wrestler is a non-wrestler, no matter how good they were in their prime. HHH SHOULD have won the way he did, whether we like him or not. Remember when we all said that the old generation should be putting over the new one? Or did that not include Flair?

He went over Flair to look even fucking better when Kevin Nash goes over in I Fell in the Cell. WHOOPIE!

Where do you get the assumption I want Nash to get the belt? I don't want him near that thing either.

I'd rather the belt be on Triple H then a non-wrestler who has been made to look like an idiot since losing to Rico

May 21, 2003

Kane

Hey, how about any one else on Raw under forty and not HHH or Test?

Rodney Mack?

May 21, 2003

Kane

Hey, how about any one else on Raw under forty and not HHH or Test?

Rodney Mack?

Curses.

I'd rather the belt be on Triple H then a non-wrestler who has been made to look like an idiot since losing to Rico

I'd rather it be on an over guy the fans want to see.

May 21, 2003

Flair is not someone they would want to see in the main event role with the title.

Hogan BOMBED- what makes you think Flair would work?

May 21, 2003

Flair is not someone they would want to see in the main event role with the title.

They don't want HHH either. That has stopped no one.

I was just saying a week long reign anyway

May 21, 2003

I don't think it would be a waste since HHH would just have got it back the next week. What would it hurt? HHH would still be on top of the world. Flair would've just been motivated and had one last good night.

More importantly than that, it's something the fans wanted to see. Why can't they go home happy for once?

What about the house show audience? The PPV audience? How would they be happy? Flair wouldn't work the WWE schedule and I seriously doubt he'd be able to wrestle the 20 minute main event. There are many ways you can make the fans happy - and old guy like Flair being champ (and therefore being BETTER than RVD, Booker T, Kane, Bubba Ray, Steiner, Jericho) would be counter productive. They have been building up HHH for 10 months now as champ, whomever takes the strap off him should be someone NEW and FRESH. Hogan shouldn't have gotten the title last year and I can betcha he was 100x's more over than flair.

What would it have done? It would've broken up the motonony of HHH as champion and told the fans that anything can happen, that things can change, even though it's not really true.

That things can change? That old, waaaay-past-their-prime, wrestlers can still win titles even if younger, better, wrestlers can't? That's not change, that's insanity. This flair-love is getting way outta hand. The man should have stopped wrestling 10 years ago for crying out loud.

It'd give fans hope that someone could take down HHH, and keep them excited during the main events. He's had that damn title a year, and you know he's going to have at least until August. They could've given everybody a break and also set something up for next week.

And who would be Ric Flair for the title and what the fuck would that mean? Everyone has beaten Ric Flair, he's an old beaten down man who lucked into the title - whomever would take the title off him wouldn't get ANYTHING off of it other than something to hold up their pants.

Who *should* be champ? No one. The WWE and HHH has systematically buried each of their wrestlers. The closest thing would be Booker T - and I don't even think he would be that good of a champion. Jericho is done for, he's terminally fucked and buried.

May 21, 2003

Flair is not someone they would want to see in the main event role with the title.

Hogan BOMBED- what makes you think Flair would work?

Fuck age. Despite being 54, Flair owns the RAW roster with the exception of one Christopher Irvine.

Hogan bombed because he blowed chunks in the ring and his appeal lost steam very fast. Fans have been cheering Flair for decades and always will because he is a fun character that invovles each and every fan in his matches in some capacity.

Comparing Hogan to Flair is like comparing tank abbot's originality to my superiority. It's a no contest.

M

May 21, 2003

Rudo, your points are lucid and certainly pertanient, but AS was just talking about a one week reign. House Shows wouldn't figure into the matter.

May 21, 2003

It doesn't matter that Flair lost to Rico, as the fans believed Flair could beat HHH last night, and that’s all that matters. Last night they built it up that Flair had once again found himself, and believed he could pull out one last great performance, and the fans ate it up. Give me Flair over HHH and Nash as champ any day of the week.

May 21, 2003

A one week reign would water down an already very fragile title. It wouldn't do anyone any good. People believed that Hurricane could have beaten HHH - give him the title. Yeah, give him the title.

May 21, 2003

Why not a few months? Nominating THE HURRICANE for the belt is beyond ridiculous knowing that Vince wouldn't even think twice about the subject. I'd much prefer to watch Flair over any other individual on the RAW roster right now and I'd be all for a Ric Flair title reign.

Fuck what the rest of you think.

M

May 21, 2003

Seeing as though Nash is more than likely going to be the one who wins the title and finally beats HHH, suddenly Flair and Hurricane aren't that bad of an idea. Obviously Jericho, RVD and Booker would be 10 times better choices, but that is never going to happen. Hurricane is a ridiculous choice of champion, but so is Kevin Nash.

May 21, 2003

Hurricane is a ridiculous choice of champion, but so is Kevin Nash.

Only to us.

M

May 21, 2003

Why not a few months, sure, just keep the house show crowds watching no champ working... or the PPV crowd getting a stellar 12 minute long match. But hey, Flair goes "woo" and does the turnbuckle flip 2 outta 10 times, and still can work, sorta, and does all of 5 moves and well since "he's better than Nash and Goldberg" he should get the title.

May 21, 2003

Why not a few months, sure, just keep the house show crowds watching no champ working... or the PPV crowd getting a stellar 12 minute long match. But hey, Flair goes "woo" and does the turnbuckle flip 2 outta 10 times, and still can work, sorta, and does all of 5 moves and well since "he's better than Nash and Goldberg" he should get the title.

Yes he should.

Who else do you think, taking Vince McMahon's mentality into consideration, 'deserves' to be world champion?

Kevin Nash, Triple H, Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels.

Booker T is dead, Jericho is so far underground that the term 'buried' doesn't do his treatment justice and Hurricane is about 4 feet and 120lbs off being even worth looking at in McMahon's eyes.

Hogan did less than what you stated Rudo (about Flair's ability), back in the 80's, and he made millions. A great performer doesn't have to be Chris Benoit as long as they can draw money, and Ric Flair has a greater chance of drawing money than Triple H, Kevin Nash or HBK do.

May 21, 2003

With McMahons mentality in mind, Flair won't get the title - period.

Please note that it is *2003* and that what cut it in the 80's doesn't cut it today.

Booker T isn't dead, I don't know where you got that from. He is just where Jericho was a few years ago. Up until WM 19 Jericho could have been saved - now he cannot be. And you do know that I was being sarcastic about the Hurricane, right? I was just following along JD's thought process of "the fans believed flair could have beaten HHH so they would believe him as champion" and noted that they believed Hurricane would have beaten HHH too...

Still, Hurricane would be able to wrestle house shows, which is a step up from Flair.

May 21, 2003

I did not view the posts before yours so I apologise for making a wrong asumption.

I honestly do think that Vince WOULD put the belt on Ric Flair. All it took was one huge reaction of a crowd of people to see Hulk Hogan gain a title run at 48 years of age. Given, Flair is considerably older, however Hogan isn't Triple H's idol, is he?

I feel as though Booker has lost his momentum after Triple H got done with him at Wrestlemania.

As I see it, HHH will only let the World Title revolve around a few selected individuals, i.e Kliq members and people he knows will return the job to him. Flair fits into that catergory, and because HBK BOMBED beyond bombing, Flair is the only logical choice in terms of drawing money.

However, over-analyising a situation which is bound to explode in McMahon's face is slightly pointless anyway.

May 21, 2003

Well considering that Hogan got cheered very loudly by 68 000 screaming fans that were not in his hometown and he was against one of the more popular stars at the time in the Rock and then the next night got a huge *sustained* reaction in Montreal there was more cause to give him the title than Flair getting it infront of maybe 10 000 fans... and even THEN it was uncalled for.

Booker T hasn't really lost his momentum, he can pick it up at anytime soon, but they need to do a more effective chase.

*No one* can draw money for the company (the WWE is running scrictly on brand name and loyalty now) and Flair certainly can't. His best drawing days are far behind him. (Jeez, if Hogan can't, how can Flair?).

All you are doing is calling Flair the lesser of all evils - which doesn't help his cause at all and certainly isn't a good enough point in saying that Flair with the title would be a good thing.

May 21, 2003

I don't think anyone could seriously think the Hurricane would be a good choice as champion, however I think that Nash as champion is just as bad an idea. Based on the "heat" or lack there of for HHH, the fans are apathetic towards him, so he is not a good choice as champion either. Jericho, Booker T, RVD, hell even Fuck Goldberg would be a better choice than Nash and HHH at this point but the fact is the klique’s reign of terror is in full force so it just isn't going to happen. I'll admit I was begging for Flair to win the title last night just because I am so fucking sick of HHH and his boyfriends. Flair too is a bad choice as champion but he would still be a better choice than HHH and Nash.

May 21, 2003

I'm outlining how impossible the situation is with the current corporate figures in power. Obviously Vince McMahon's company is dying, but until HE realises that Triple H, HBK, Nash et. al. WON'T turn WWE around then he is destined to end up like World Championship Wrestling.

I am trying to make the greatest positive out of an outcome that can only contain negatives, which is the situation Vince McMahon has put himself in. Hence my theory of impossibility.

M

May 21, 2003

You know, as long as Nash DOES NOT get the title at the PPV, I'm just fine with Hunter as champion.

He [booker T] is just where Jericho was a few years ago. Up until WM 19 Jericho could have been saved - now he cannot be.

Jericho has enough charisma and heat behind him to stay in the upper mid-card for months to come. Fans would still buy him as a serious contender, if the writers suddenly picked him to run with HHH at Summerslam (the next PPV the RAW brand will be performing at.)

May 21, 2003

Jericho is dead. They sucked all the life outta whatever he had left when he lost to a cripple at WM and didn't succeed in going 'beyond' shawn michaels and 'become' chris jericho.

The situation right now with the champion on Raw is like "pick your poison". Each choice is going to fuck the company up in its own way, the end result will always be the same.

May 21, 2003

Flair/HBK is worth doing on a RAW-only PPV, but it should be a special attraction type-thing.

No way should Flair have beaten HHH. I would be a hypocrite to complain about HBK holding the title when Flair isn't a real wrestler anymore either. Keep the old guys out of the main events and as special attractions. At least the Smackdown writers, for all the attention paid to Hogan/Piper, keep them far away from the real star (Lesnar).

chaosrage · May 21, 2003

What about the house show audience? The PPV audience? How would they be happy? Flair wouldn't work the WWE schedule and I seriously doubt he'd be able to wrestle the 20 minute main event. There are many ways you can make the fans happy - and old guy like Flair being champ (and therefore being BETTER than RVD, Booker T, Kane, Bubba Ray, Steiner, Jericho) would be counter productive. They have been building up HHH for 10 months now as champ, whomever takes the strap off him should be someone NEW and FRESH. Hogan shouldn't have gotten the title last year and I can betcha he was 100x's more over than flair.

House show audience? PPV audience? What are you talking about? I said HHH would get it back in a week. Whoever dethrones HHH should be someone new and fresh, but this wouldn't be doing that. I look at it the same way I look at Jericho beating HHH for the title in the match that never happened. It didn't set HHH back or somehow make people forgot all about those months he had the belt. It just made it seem like it was possible that HHH could be beat, and gave Jericho a good moment. It's the same with Jeff Hardy and HHH over the IC belt. Do you think that win and squash suddenly put him over HHH or all of the better wrestlers, or did it just give him a fluke win and a short IC run that didn't really mean anything?

That things can change? That old, waaaay-past-their-prime, wrestlers can still win titles even if younger, better, wrestlers can't? That's not change, that's insanity. This flair-love is getting way outta hand. The man should have stopped wrestling 10 years ago for crying out loud.

The funny thing is I've never been that big on Flair. But I think it's something that the crowd wanted to see, and I think a title change would help take some of the staleness out of the shows. People are sick of HHH with the strap, and like I said he's probably not losing it for another three months. Well look at the situation now, where the only viable contender for the title is Nash, someone the crowd couldn't give two shits about. They watched RVD, Steiner, Booker T, and Hurricane lose, get buried, saw HHH run through the entire roster; it's getting to the point where they know there's no chance of him losing so why bother geting worked up over anybody he fights? Just for a week, this would've mixed things up a little.

Around WM, HHH had the excuse that he wanted Booker to have a title reign that meant something, which was his reason for not losing the title. He said he didn't want to give it to him and take it right back. Flair doesn't have that problem. He doesn't have anything to lose. He's old but apparently he can still work, cause it was a decent match last night. I don't find it too hard to believe that a motivated Flair could pull out a win over a sore caught off guard HHH expecting a night off. In a straight up fight, no, but if he's going after the legs and cheating, maybe, if he was as good as JR, Shawn, and HHH himself said he was last night. The fans didn't seem to have a problem buying it.

May 21, 2003

I think that HBK/Flair would have been better than Nash/HHH and I honestly couldn't say that it would be a five-star match but from a longtime fan standpoint it would be great to see them go at it.

May 21, 2003

House show audience? PPV audience? What are you talking about? I said HHH would get it back in a week. Whoever dethrones HHH should be someone new and fresh, but this wouldn't be doing that. I look at it the same way I look at Jericho beating HHH for the title in the match that never happened. It didn't set HHH back or somehow make people forgot all about those months he had the belt. It just made it seem like it was possible that HHH could be beat, and gave Jericho a good moment. It's the same with Jeff Hardy and HHH over the IC belt. Do you think that win and squash suddenly put him over HHH or all of the better wrestlers, or did it just give him a fluke win and a short IC run that didn't really mean anything?

Then what you want to do with Flair getting the title for a week is P-O-I-N-T-L-E-S-S. Just like Jericho getting that "title win" just like Jeff Hardy getting that IC title. Why even do it? For a crowd pop? You can do that so many different ways and you don't have to dilute the title in the process.

The funny thing is I've never been that big on Flair. But I think it's something that the crowd wanted to see, and I think a title change would help take some of the staleness out of the shows. People are sick of HHH with the strap, and like I said he's probably not losing it for another three months. Well look at the situation now, where the only viable contender for the title is Nash, someone the crowd couldn't give two shits about. They watched RVD, Steiner, Booker T, and Hurricane lose, get buried, saw HHH run through the entire roster; it's getting to the point where they know there's no chance of him losing so why bother geting worked up over anybody he fights? Just for a week, this would've mixed things up a little.

A ONE WEEK title reign will NOT break that monotony. All it will do is jerk the fans around saying "HHH's reign of terror is over.... FOR A WEEK! AHAHAH FOOLED YOU~!"

Around WM, HHH had the excuse that he wanted Booker to have a title reign that meant something, which was his reason for not losing the title. He said he didn't want to give it to him and take it right back.

I just heard HHH didn't feel like losing it. Of course, either reason isn't a good one when the storyline is race motivated.

Flair doesn't have that problem. He doesn't have anything to lose. He's old but apparently he can still work, cause it was a decent match last night. I don't find it too hard to believe that a motivated Flair could pull out a win over a sore caught off guard HHH expecting a night off. In a straight up fight, no, but if he's going after the legs and cheating, maybe, if he was as good as JR, Shawn, and HHH himself said he was last night. The fans didn't seem to have a problem buying it.

Again, the fans bought the Hurricane getting a pin fall on HHH. There would be so many things wrong with flair winning the title that night - especially since they only built it up on ONE NIGHT. It's not like there were any signs of Flair being unhappy in his role as HHH's lapdog, it's not like it was an on-going and evolving storyline that finally saw Flair liberate himself and become the nature boy again. They could have built that storyline up for a PPV match where HHH picks Flair as the #1 contender and THEN have Flair question whether or not he will do the job and encounter HBK along the way - so the match and win would actually *mean* something other than a fucking pop.

May 21, 2003

Here's my take.

Should Flair have received the belt? In an ideal world, no. In an ideal world, the belt is around the waist of properly built up over face, like Booker, RVD, or even Hurricane. Yes, I think Hurricane could be big if they just spent 1/20th of the effort on him that they do with the clique.

Since we don't live in an ideal world, give the belt to Flair. HHH is either going to hold on to it until losing it has no meaning, or he'll give it to Nash, thus that big rub HHH could give will be wasted anyway.

Goldberg? HHH is going to balk at dropping the belt to him, so if he does it's going to be done in the cheapest way making Goldie look like a chump anyway.

Four evils: Nash, HHH, Flair, Goldberg.

Flair is the lesser evil.

Sigh.

chaosrage · May 21, 2003

Then what you want to do with Flair getting the title for a week is P-O-I-N-T-L-E-S-S. Just like Jericho getting that "title win" just like Jeff Hardy getting that IC title. Why even do it? For a crowd pop? You can do that so many different ways and you don't have to dilute the title in the process.

It's pointless in the sense that it doesn't change the title scene, but it makes for interesting TV. Jeff's win kept the crowds watching until Jericho and Benoit finally came along and beat him convicingly in the tag match, blowing the roof off the building. It didn't hurt HHH or the belt at all.

Here's another one, when the Rock beat HHH for the title in 2000. It didn't really put a halt to HHH's reign, what it did was give everyone a break from it. If he had beat Foley for 3 months, and then went and beat Rock for another 3 straight months, people would eventually stop caring. You have to make them believe that the title CAN change. When HHH fought Taka and Jericho in 2000, people actually thought it could happen. Booker T and Hurricane now? No chance, and they all knew it. When's the last time the title changed on a RAW even? Why should they care about title matches on free TV when it never changes?

Again, the fans bought the Hurricane getting a pin fall on HHH. There would be so many things wrong with flair winning the title that night - especially since they only built it up on ONE NIGHT. It's not like there were any signs of Flair being unhappy in his role as HHH's lapdog, it's not like it was an on-going and evolving storyline that finally saw Flair liberate himself and become the nature boy again. They could have built that storyline up for a PPV match where HHH picks Flair as the #1 contender and THEN have Flair question whether or not he will do the job and encounter HBK along the way - so the match and win would actually *mean* something other than a fucking pop.

You see, I think it's better without build up. If they had built it up for a long time, and then only given him a week title run, the fans would REALLY be jerked around. And if HHH had weeks instead of say, 20 minutes to prepare for a match with the nature boy, that would be devastating. It would say that even though HHH is supposed to be the best, he clearly isn't as good as a way past his prime 50 year old Ric Flair. It's a lot more believable for him to lose because he wasn't ready or wasn't taking him seriously.

Again, a one night storyline and conclusion would tell everybody that you have to watch every night because you have no idea what could happen. The kind of feeling the shows had from 97-late 2000. That's what they need more than anything.

May 21, 2003

There's no way Flair should've won the World Title. Shawn Micheals should not have either. In the fall, RVD should've been World Champ, and right now Booker T should be World Champ.

May 21, 2003

It's pointless in the sense that it doesn't change the title scene, but it makes for interesting TV. Jeff's win kept the crowds watching until Jericho and Benoit finally came along and beat him convicingly in the tag match, blowing the roof off the building. It didn't hurt HHH or the belt at all.

Zah? Jeff Hardy winning the IC title kept people watching? Are you sure? I just saw it as them pointlessly elevating a wrestler who just got swatted away like a bug the next week. And the Jericho/Benoit win was totally upstaged by the Quad pull and HHH's subsequent "workin through the pain". No one benefitted from that except HHH.

Here's another one, when the Rock beat HHH for the title in 2000. It didn't really put a halt to HHH's reign, what it did was give everyone a break from it. If he had beat Foley for 3 months, and then went and beat Rock for another 3 straight months, people would eventually stop caring.

Rock won it at a PPV, held it for a month, HHH beat him, and then Rock took it off HHH a month after that and HHH never held it since his return in 02. Flair winning the title of one week and losing it the next right back to HHH would just be a tiny bump in the road.

You have to make them believe that the title CAN change. When HHH fought Taka and Jericho in 2000, people actually thought it could happen. Booker T and Hurricane now? No chance, and they all knew it.

C'mon, no one believed TAKA would win the title just like they didn't believe that Hurricane would - that was all in the booking of the match. Jericho and Booker, on the other hand, the crowd believed that because of the respective storylines and the fact that both Jericho and Booker *should* have won the titles.

When's the last time the title changed on a RAW even? Why should they care about title matches on free TV when it never changes?

I don't think they should give away title matches on free TV w/o a great deal of hype. The original idea of having title matches on TV was to lure away watchers from Nitro/Raw. No Nitro. Title matches should be saved for PPVs so people will pay to see the title changes. If you want a lot of people to watch a certain TV 'event' where you want to pull off a bunch of important angles, then you hype up a title match there as well. If HBK's one month title reign didn't break up the monotony of HHH's show, then I doubt a one week flair win would either

You see, I think it's better without build up. If they had built it up for a long time, and then only given him a week title run, the fans would REALLY be jerked around. And if HHH had weeks instead of say, 20 minutes to prepare for a match with the nature boy, that would be devastating. It would say that even though HHH is supposed to be the best, he clearly isn't as good as a way past his prime 50 year old Ric Flair. It's a lot more believable for him to lose because he wasn't ready or wasn't taking him seriously.

That's the thing. HHH would *still* take it lightly because he'd still think that Flair was his buddy and would lie down for him. All the while you'd have Flair question whether or not he'd do it - and since HHH is so into himself he wouldn't notice. Hell, you could have him (HHH) help Flair "train" for the match in jest. to make it look like they are going to fool everyone - and it backfires on him.

Again, a one night storyline and conclusion would tell everybody that you have to watch every night because you have no idea what could happen. The kind of feeling the shows had from 97-late 2000. That's what they need more than anything.

Oh that's no different than McMahon trying to do the Katie Vick angle. That's crash tv. The WWE doesn't need that. They need intriguing storylines that hook viewers rather than constant surprises.

Ric Flair: A Double Question

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