The one and only random puro thoughts thread

[Guest Dangerous A]

Let's start a thread here with just some random thoughts regarding the world of puro. I'll start off and people can either tell me they agree, offer me a difference of opinion, or tell me I'm a stupid fuck for thinking whatever it is I am saying. Remember this is a thoughts thread, not a questions thread, however questions can be asked once things jump off. Here goes.

 

 

I think Kazunari Murakami is underrated. Hear me out first. I know he doesn't qualify as a great or even good worker. However he has a talent for getting an angle and/or building fired up because he drips misery. I don't think I've ever seen the man smile.(nor would I want to) Although I'm not the biggest fan of worked shoot, Murakami does a great job at making a match seem like a fight.

 

 

NJPW should hotshot the NWF title to Shinsuke Nakamura and have Takayama retain the IWGP title over Tenzan. Nakamura is the hot rookie and they need to start building for the future, something they failed to do with Tenzan. Speaking of Tenzan, they should have built his title chase better and that's why they should hold off. I am not looking forward to that match at all and I see no one on the horizon that Tenzan could possibly have an engaging i.e. money drawing feud with except Nagata and if Nagata gets the gold back quickly, then Tenzan comes off as transitional.

 

 

What do you think?

[Guest Black Tiger]

Murakamki is good at getting heat, not just for the match/feud/whatever. But for making the fans HATE him and LOVE whoever he's fighting.

 

NWF Champion Shinsuke Nakamura, YOU STUPID FUCK! (j/k) actually I'd rather see Takayama keep the NWF title since that's more z'Inoki's" title and it keeps heat on him since he seems to be a heel at the moment. I don't mind him as IWGP Champion, because Nagata was getting stale at the top. I really mind TenChono as champions though, not that I like the idea of Yutaka Yoshie holding a title, but I'd rather see a newer team hold the gold.

 

I think NJPW needs to hold off Nagata vs Tenzan as long as they can, to build up a future title match and play off their not having had a one on one match since 1/4/01. I say have Tenzan win the title then have the G-1 semi finals go down to Akiyama vs Nagata and Tenzan vs Nakanishi, and set the finals for Tenzan vs Akiyama just to build up the suspense for another Tenzan vs Nagata match.

[Guest J*ingus]

Something I've wondered for a while: lotsa puro workers (Kawada and Misawa being the two most obvious suspects) tend to throw a lot of very stiff shots to the head in their matches, whether in the form of elbows, kicks, or whatever. How do their opponents, who're subjected to this kind of treatment on a weekly basis over the course of several years, not end up with severe concussions and brain damage in a short amount of time?

[Guest Dangerous A]

I think the touring system in Japan helps with recovery time for a lot of injuries. Another thing is that we don't know for sure how much brain damage has actually been done. For all I know, Misawa may need a stage hand to help him tie his own boots and Kawada needs his wife to remind him to wear underwear. We may not see the effects from the hard hitting style until some of these guys are already retired.

[Guest gansobomber]

I'm probably wrong or mistaken, but I read somewhere about Dick Murdock not really potato-ing workers and was actually not very stiff. When I first saw him, he seems like he was stiffing out someone. No I do not doubt the Kawada's running high kick is not stiff, but his other kicks (other than punting other people's head around) CAN be made to look convincing. Like I said, I'm probably wrong, but the same could be applied to some other workers.

[Guest J*ingus]

Well, I've been through training, had a couple of half-assed matches, and have been generally beat up a lot, and I can usually tell when someone's working well or is stiffing. In Misawa's case, for example, his elbows are often hitting the other person so damn hard that I wouldn't be surprised if he'd broken their jaw with them. But yes, I didn't think about the touring, that could help a lot. Maybe they kinda half-ass it at the nontelevised shows too.

[Guest Dangerous A]

But yes, I didn't think about the touring, that could help a lot. Maybe they kinda half-ass it at the nontelevised shows too.

Actually, Misawa and Kawada were notorious for "dogging it" on regualar non televised house shows. This may have been because of the hard style and they were saving it for the big shows.

[Guest gansobomber]

If they were stiff for real, I wouldn't blame them...

[Guest The Rising Star]

That sound Misawa's elbow made on Kobashi's face from their match in 1996 really was frightening. I thought I heared a couple of bones crush or something!

 

Off topic, what's Misawa's real name, or Kobashi's real name?

[Guest Memphis]

That sound Misawa's elbow made on Kobashi's face from their match in 1996 really was frightening. I thought I heared a couple of bones crush or something!

 

Off topic, what's Misawa's real name, or Kobashi's real name?

There *IS* a questions thread, you know.

 

You'll find most wrestlers in Japan compete using their real names, as the case with Kenta Kobashi & Mitsuharu Misawa.

 

M

[Guest Memphis]

NJPW should hotshot the NWF title to Shinsuke Nakamura and have Takayama retain the IWGP title over Tenzan. Nakamura is the hot rookie and they need to start building for the future, something they failed to do with Tenzan. Speaking of Tenzan, they should have built his title chase better and that's why they should hold off. I am not looking forward to that match at all and I see no one on the horizon that Tenzan could possibly have an engaging i.e. money drawing feud with except Nagata and if Nagata gets the gold back quickly, then Tenzan comes off as transitional.

 

 

What do you think?

I actually thought they'd go ahead with Yugi Nagata vs Tenzan and have him finally capture the title. However, should Tenzan lose his match towards Takayama then, at least angle-wise, he is to become officially retired. Obviously there are ways around this, for instance Chono playing up on his leadership role and forcing Tenzan to stop acting like a pussy and get back off his feet after his loss, should it happen.

 

I agree with you on the fact I cannot see ANYONE else besides Mr. Nagata that even mildly interests me with Tenzan. I've never been that big a fan to begin with. I'm much more into Nakamura, who is becoming more and more interested each time I witness him wrestle.

 

M

[EL DANDY~! 0]

What does everybody think of post-split AJPW? I mean, in the AJPW/NJPW wars, I thought it was great, because you'd see some really great matches, like most of the matches from the 6.6 and 6.8 shows in 2001, and the big tag from 12.14.00. I mean, obviously, those matches aren't exactly like the matches The Big Four had in their primes. I still think it's enjoyable to watch.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Murdoch was like Race. He worked very snug and tight (aka stiff) but had good enough worked punches that he didn't really have to hit you to make it look real.

 

Tim

[Guest Black Tiger]

Post split AJPW was pretty much hell, with just about no decent and/or interesting workers other than Kawada, Kea, Nagai, and Kakihara. When Mutoh jumped it sparked some interest, but the product still sucked. Now with Nagai and Kakihara gone, and Kea hurt. It's pretty much Kawada and Kojima carrying the flag.

[Guest Dangerous A]

What does everybody think of post-split AJPW? I mean, in the AJPW/NJPW wars, I thought it was great, because you'd see some really great matches, like most of the matches from the 6.6 and 6.8 shows in 2001, and the big tag from 12.14.00. I mean, obviously, those matches aren't exactly like the matches The Big Four had in their primes. I still think it's enjoyable to watch.

I thought the AJ/NJ wars were alright. A lot better than the Invasion staged by WWF at least. The only problem was when Sasaki went over Kawada on 1/4/01. If NJ would've had the stones to put the IWGP on an outsider like AJ did when they put the Triple Crown on Mutoh, then I think the AJ/NJ wars could've lasted a lot longer and had better box office. Kawada had a slew of challengers from NJ that could've lasted a long time. Instead, they even-stevened the shit and AJ didn't look the same. I know Kawada went over on 10/9/00, but they still should've had Kawada go over on 1/4 and then sometime in the summer have him drop it to whoever it is they wanted with the belt.

[Guest Black Tiger]

Actually DA, hindsight being 20/20 it's probably best they didn't put the strap on Kawada.

 

Inoki would have fought like hell to get Fujita the IWGP Title in the first place so Kawada would have either jobbed to Fujita or jobbed to a transitional champion anyways.

 

What I think was the final end to the NJ/AJ relationship was the Mutoh/Kojima/KaShin jump to AJPW, so if the relationship went dead with Kawada as champion then they would have really been in trouble, but being Kawada I think he'd have been graceful enough to hand over the title.

[Guest Dangerous A]

I felt the AJ/NJ war ended way before the Mutoh/Kojima/KaShin jump. Kawada and the other AJ regulars stopped competing on NJ shows regularly before the summer of 01 ended. Sure Mutoh kept up appearances with AJ, but he was Triple Crown champ and had a ton of power because Motoko was a huge Mutoh mark and let him do damn near whatever he wanted. Kawada probrably would've jobbed the title to someone who wasn't worthy because Inoki is an idiot.

 

Speaking of Mutoh's Triple Crown reign, I rewatched his crowning match with Tenryu again (6/8/01) and I must say this match is overrated. I think it was WON 2001 match of the year. (which says a ton about 2001) This match has not aged well with me at all. I am not saying it is pure shit or anything, but match of the year? Please. This match is a solid *** match IMO and nothing more.

[Guest Black Tiger]

Not to sound elitist or anything DA, but the NJ/AJ partnership extended beyond the summer of 2001. In September of 2001 Tenkoji had a MOTYC vs Kawada/Nagai. In October of 2001 Mutoh and Taiyo Kea unified the AJPW Tag Titles and the IWGP Tag Titles, and Tenkoji won the G-1 Tag League finals over the (then) AJPW team of Mike Barton and Jim Steele

[Guest Dangerous A]

Not to sound elitist or anything DA, but the NJ/AJ partnership extended beyond the summer of 2001. In September of 2001 Tenkoji had a MOTYC vs Kawada/Nagai. In October of 2001 Mutoh and Taiyo Kea unified the AJPW Tag Titles and the IWGP Tag Titles, and Tenkoji won the G-1 Tag League finals over the (then) AJPW team of Mike Barton and Jim Steele

The October activity did slip my mind, I'll give you Kea unifying the tag belts with Mutoh. Although Barton and Steele were technically AJ gaijin, I wouldn't consider them competing in NJ in November and December a strong measure of the AJ/nJ working relationship. They weren't big in AJ.

[Guest Doyo]

the following quoted from http://www.ichibanpuroresu.com/review/review076.html

 

WHY AREN'T NECK INJURIES AS FREQUENT IN JAPAN?

With the mounting number of neck injuries that so many WWE wrestlers are sustaining, many have suggested ways to solve or at least aid the problem. The reasons for these injuries are pretty clear: an accumulation of big bumps on the neck. And in the WWE in 2003, believe it or not, what a wrestler does in the ring is now very important – more important that it's ever been in the WWE's market.

 

So with wrestlers working the hardest style mainstream wrestling in the US has ever seen, it's a popular question to ask, "With wrestlers in Japan arguably wrestling an even harder style, why don't neck injuries pile up there like they are in the WWE?" Most notably, the All Japan/NOAH style has been filled with top stars destroying each other with all the suplexes the guys in WWE are doing now and more. After all the German suplexes, decapitating backdrops, the constant elbows and kicks, pummeling the neck and even experiments with such moves as the Tiger Driver '91 and the Burning Hammer, why have these guys who wrestled such a dangerous neck-beating style never had significant recorded neck problems? Many say it's the method of touring that is done in Japan, with a tour lasting about three weeks, then taking a week and a half or so off to rest, as opposed to the WWE's non-stop touring week after week. And the rest is definitely a factor, but there's a little more to it.

 

The tendencies of how often tag matches or six- or eight-man tag matches are booked and how the fans perceive them are very different in the three major areas of the world where pro wrestling exists. In Mexico, the rudos vs. technicos trios (six-man tag) matches are a major event, right on par with singles matches and their fans have been conditioned for decades to perceive them as such. In Japan, singles matches are booked with rarity to preserve their importance, especially between the top stars. For example, Mitsuharu Misawa and Toshiaki Kawada, from the time they were young boys to the time Misawa left All Japan, they had a total of 19 singles matches against one another. And when they had them when they were on top, each one of those matches had real importance.

 

About 90% of the matches held by the major promotions in Japan are some form of tag matches – televised or not. However, the tour usually ends with a high-profile singles match (or otherwise big match) held in a major arena. But all the rest of the main events on the tour are these varieties of tag matches. And in them, you have three or five or seven other guys to do the work with you. Kenta Kobashi, Mitsuharu Misawa and Yuji Nagata, to name a few, routinely have 20-minute matches every night, but they're only actually in the ring for about five or seven minutes of that. In the WWE, you have guys like Kurt Angle, Edge and Benoit having 10- to 15-minute matches every time they go out there. But the guys in the WWE are doing more work because they're usually in singles matches, where they're doing all the work. Best-case scenario, they're in four-man tag matches, where they're sharing it with another guy. Rarely on WWE TV or house shows do they book six-man or eight-man tags. And so, WWE guys go out there, working the toughest schedule in wrestling and wrestling more and taking more beatings than any other promotions' wrestlers are.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I was also wondering how the Japanese wrestlers sustain all the neck punishment as well. IMO the wrestlers in the WWE are a lot more fragile than their Japanese counterparts. Benoit (who's wrestled in Japan a lot) also tempted fate a long time taking tons of neck bumps before he went out for neck surgery as well.You can talk about schedules all you want but if anyone in the WWE took the same amount of neck bumps that Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada or any of the other superstars they would be in a lot worse shape.

I'm just guessing here but it has to be the way necks are trained in Japan. Does anyone remember Kobashi training his neck before his match against Kobashi on 1/20/97? He undobutably has a very strong neck. Flexability has to help as well. Look at RVD in the WWE. The law of averages should have RVD out with a neck injury and not all the other WWE superstars that have been injured. Yet, RVD keeps on going. Manami Toyota falls in this category of being flexable as well.

 

I believe RVD also stretches a lot before his matches as well. Perhaps the Japanese wrestlers are better at preparing for a match as well.

 

About schedules: Didn't AJW have a killer schedule in the 90's? How were they able to keep on going with a league that was so fast paced and hard hitting? Maybe the easy answer to all these neck questions is that the Japanese wrestlers are just plain tougher on average.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I'd guess at it being partly the touring schedules allowing for breaks and partly better conditioning. Either way, the japs are clearly harder.

 

The Mutoh vs. Tenryu match that was brought up is not very good, agreed. I never thought much of it, everyone seemed to pimp the hell out of it but when I actually watched it I realised that people were only marking out for old guys doing things that they haven't for years, and the crowd heat. There was some neat psych, the moonsault finish was a genius touch, for example, but the match was just an average spot fest, and an average spot fest, whether it's done by old men or juniors, is still just an average spot fest.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Some of you are talking like the AJ stars are supermen that never get hurt. From what I've read and seen, Kobashi is basically held together with pieces of tape, Misawa's a mess, Kawada's a mess, Mutoh has the knees of a mummy, etc.

 

The drops on the dome, moonsaults, and hard-hitting strikes DO, and have taken a toll.

[Guest gansobomber]

The thing I noticed is that most Japanese wrestlers are not buffed up muscle guys like in the US. Beleive me, that helps when taking bumps because you are well protected. And working out to built a muscle makes you less flexible unless you stretch after a workout.

[Guest Black Tiger]

Puroresu wrestlers and North American style wrestlers train in totally different ways. In North American wrestling the workers train to basically look good.

 

However in Puroresu they train to take punishment and to fight. Notice how out of shape some of best puro workers were, and they can run circles around the oiled up,and chizzled workers out of North America

[Guest gansobomber]

wouldn't it be funny if a puroresu fed invaded the WWE? It'd be fun to see Triple H, Cena and Brock get smoked in the ring.

 

On the other hand you've got Benoit, Rey, Chavo and Eddie to put on some more awesome matches...

[Guest Black Tiger]

I was on Stuart's message board Strong Style Symphoney and there was a thread talking about Hayabusa. At the most recent show from his WMF federation he was able to stand up on his own and walk with the aid of walking sticks.

 

Hayabusa was saying that he wants to wrestle one last match? Who should he wrestle?

 

My first choice for his oponenet would be Mr Ganosuke, with their long history together (both the in ring feud, and the outside friendship)

[Guest Dangerous A]

wouldn't it be funny if a puroresu fed invaded the WWE? It'd be fun to see Triple H, Cena and Brock get smoked in the ring.

 

On the other hand you've got Benoit, Rey, Chavo and Eddie to put on some more awesome matches...

In a perfect world, gansobomber, in a perfect world.

 

 

Unfortunately both sides (WWE and whatever puro fed) wouldn't be able to come to an agreement about who would go over. Both WWE and AJ/NJ bumbled invasion angles in the last 2 years and who knows what they would come up with. Plus, the puro fed guys probrably wouldn't get over in the US because A) the US fans aren't conditioned to the style and B) even if they wrestled short 3-5 minute matches, the puro workers would still not get over because of the lack of promo skills. Some guys like Chono might be able to get over on charisma alone, but most of the Japanese guys aren't at his level when it comes to garnering attention.

 

 

I have attempted to see your vision in my head and it would rule if it could be done, but the realist in me says it wouldn't work.

[Guest TheHulkster]

Kenta Kobashi is pretty fuckin amazing. He comes back from injuries that would end 80% of the wrestlers currently active's careers, reclaims his spot as one of the very top stars if Japan, and still continues to be arguably the best heavyweight wrestler in Japan despite his physical limitations. The guy can captivate an audience like Hogan and puts on matches still that you just want to watch again and again. He's my favorite wrestler to watch right now. Some may not agree, but you can't deny that he has probably had one of the best comebacks in wrestling history.

 

*end markish rant*

[Guest gansobomber]

I just he hope he doesn't end up dying in the ring.