The one and only "puro elitist" thread

[Guest godthedog]

i think puro fans got a bad rap because of jubuki, and tim & wolverine to a lesser extent. i've found that, on the whole, they tend to be a lot more intelligent than the average NA-only fan. they generally know how to make arguments & counterarguments (something that can't be said for about 70% of the people here).

 

of all the puro guys, jubuki is/was the only one to really be an asshole. i've had some fine, noncondescending conversations with wolverine, coffin surfer, tim & especially ricky (who is probably one of the smartest people on this board).

 

2 things get brought up constantly in regards to them:

 

1) jumping on guys who start threads asking basic questions. this i think is akin to the way rising star got a new asshole torn for starting a thread about vince's ladder legdrop. people SHOULD use their heads about starting new topics, and not clutter up the board with useless crap that could be found out easier with a simple net search or a PM.

 

2) always jumping into a conversation & saying a given puro match/worker (usually AJPW or joshi) blows away any american match/worker that the thread happens to be talking about.

 

this does get pretty tiresome. i'm pretty much a puro-head of the movies folder (meaning i love obscure foreign shit nobody's ever heard of & could think of dozens of reasons 'pierrot le fou' or 'weekend' is better than most of what people throw around as "one of my favorite movies" or "one of the greatest of all time"). and i know a lot more about movies than most of the people who post in the folder, since it is my major. but i don't feel compelled to force my opinion on everyone who talks about how much they love 'lord of the rings', because it would really add nothing to the conversation. i don't go on about how some movie or director everybody else loves is overrated, because it would just descend into a pointless argument. it wouldn't matter if i was right, nothing would really get solved & there would be no positive discussion. i occasionally do stuff like this, when there's something i feel strongly about, but i don't do it incessantly. and almost every time something like this happens in another folder it turns into puro fans v. NA fans, and nothing gets solved. ever. saying kurt angle is overrated every time you see his name come up doesn't do any good. this is probably a gross overgeneralization, but it's the impression i get, & i think it's the impression that most of the board gets.

 

anyway, that's my take.

[Guest Memphis]

Part of the problem may lie with the common perception that puro fans are just dorks. Metephorically speaking, if the average wrestling fan were somebody that says "Yeah, Star Wars is pretty good, but the ewoks were stupid." then puro fans are the people who dress up like Yoda and sit in a movie line for 6 months.

Why is this perception active though? Because Puro fans watch wrestling from another country that happens to value the sporting aspect of wrestling we're labelled 'dorks'. This is something I do not quite understand.

 

I am an Australian citizen and I've been heavily involved with the WWF since I was about 11 years of age. However does watching the WWF, or WWE, make me a 'dork' because I go out of my way to view another country's product? I don't think so. I'm just arguing the common perception, not trying to put words in your mouth IDRM, so I apologise if that is the vibe I'm giving here.

 

The main offenders, such as Dragonfly Kid and Jubuki, ruined the image and reputation of Puro posters on this board. Most people fail to acknowledge how intelligent, accepting and helpful that OTHER posters are, such as Coffin Surfer, Playtus Fool, Dangerous A, RickyChosyu - just to name a few.

 

In any event, I fail to see what has brought on the perception of Puro guys as nerds, because all we're doing is watching wrestling.

 

M

[Guest Vitamin X]

I never thought Baisden was a puro elitist, he even watches and posts reviews and hangout recaps of watching the freakin ppv's on 411 for chrissakes

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Jubuki's helpful if you PM the guy a straightforward question. I asked him something about Akira Hokuto's broken neck, and the dude hooked me up. Now, that probably could've been found just as easily with a Google or some shit, but I only ever saw the guy go off on someone who asked something REALLY stupid..like "What was the lineup of said show?" Which could've been found in 5 or 6 seconds.

 

Tim and Ricky actually annoy me more, mainly because Tim's the only one I've ever seen perpetuate the math test simile to japanese wrasslin', and Ricky just strikes me as wishy-washy with the stuff he does with that folder, but both are overall good shits.

 

The biggest part of the perpetual cycle of dipshititude that goes on in that folder that bugs me the most is...why not actually turn someone on to what you feel is a better product? Why keep up the notion that it's "MY Puroresu" or whatever? Just fuckin' say "Keiji Mutoh" or "That was 12/6/96." or better yet..don't bother replying at all.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Terrific stuff.

 

Ask Mighty Damaramu, Dangerous J, or others and see how I have helped them spend their money wisely and actually got them so fascinated with some different wrestling that the "HHH was a good worker in 2000" is simply false now.

 

To each his own in what he wants to believe, but even if wrestling is a "subjective art", some opinions are just flat out wrong.

 

Tim

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Basically, Chris "Jubuki" Coey is the ultimate "Puro elitist". Then he has several followers who back up everything he says or does.

 

What Coey doesn't realise is that nobody cares what he has to say. Think about it, the only time we ever talked about him was to bash him for being a dick. So, although he has a vast knowledge of wrestling, it is all wasted because he acts like such a total nutsack, thus nobody respects his opinion.

 

Sad, really.

[Guest Goodear]

The puro elite thing is pretty much dead now that Jubuki is gone. Although there is still some that creeps in every now and again, but that's to be expected considering that there is going to be morons in every folder. I really can't see getting upset about someone posting a question however simple it might be considering the puro folder gets something like six or seven new topics a day at the most, but that is me.

[Guest goodhelmet]

Agent of Oblivion: "why not actually turn someone on to what you feel is a better product? Why keep up the notion that it's "MY Puroresu" or whatever? Just fuckin' say "Keiji Mutoh" or "That was 12/6/96." or better yet..don't bother replying at all."

 

---Exactly.

 

As a wrestling fan, I am always looking for something new to sink my teeth into. I discovered puro only 3 short years ago. In the 3 years since, I have exhausted every internet resource looking for the greatest matches, the greatest line-ups, the classics, etc. Personally, I would have much rather found that information on this board.

 

As for the puro folder, I never even had a problem with coey or his sycophants until he called me an idiot for answering jay spree's question. a thread that could have lasted two posts went far and beyond that because someone had to be an asshole. if anyne ever goes to coey's website, you will find he has reviewed some great wrestling shows that i have never seen covered anywhere else on the net. as has been stated several times, it is a shame that someone who could be such a valuable resource for wrestling fans has to act like a prick.

 

finally, on the subjective nature of rating matches. i think the biggest problem most guys in the puro folder have with people's opinions is that a poster will often use the "subjective excuse" or "it's my opinion" with absolutely no substance to back it up. if you think hhh-flair is the shiznitz then make an articulate defense that PROVES it deserves the praise you have heaped upon it. too many times, people who criticize puro don't really have the knowledge or vocabulary to make a compelling argument. this brings up another point about coey- while he is capable of dissecting an argument, he preferred to insult the poster instead.

 

sidenote- this bothers me when discussing tape reviewers also...

if you are going to give a match **** or ***** then please explain why!!! SK and several other "tape reviewers" from various sites often pull stars out of a hat when dishing out ratings. this is why dames and goodhart and a few others rule so much. they take the time to defend their rating with well-reasoned and critical thought. more writers should do the same.

[Guest mach7]

That and the puro guys don't seem to ever get any pussy.

Yeah, and I can see all the WWE fan boys getting all kinds of action. Riiiight.

[Guest goodhelmet]

That and the puro guys don't seem to ever get any pussy.

Yeah, and I can see all the WWE fan boys getting all kinds of action. Riiiight.

really, i don't know anyone who publicly admits they are a wrestling fan who gets much pussy unless they are married (like me), have a long-time girlfriend or fiance, or is just a good-looking guy! unfortunately, for as many posters who have posted their picture, there aren't many who fall into the latter category.

[Guest TheGame2705]

The main problem I have now with the puro folder is I actually tried to argue why I thought the match wasn't that good. Anything I said was just labeled as ignorance and I was told I didn't get the deeper meaning behind it and that I was just an ignorant fool. The only arguments I can remember is "you didn't know the story" and "there was no no-selling" and "have you ever seen a tag match? the rules were fine" Point blank, I'm NOT gonna spend money trying to find every tape with those four involved simply because

a.) Misawa and Taue bored the fuck out of me so it's piss poor psychology to want to buy more tapes with them and

b.) I can say right now if those four in their best match ever bore the fuck out of me how the hell can they keep me entertained in their lower matches?

 

 

Someone hit it right on the head when they said alot of people in there label what they think is right, as fact.

It's like those annoying fans of rock who are cool because they go against mainstream and only like the underground.

 

Some people in there I haven't had any problems with such as Black Tiger and Pegasus and to an extent Ricky. XDojime and Memphis also don't annoy me but holy fuck I think I've found the new Jubuki in Coffin "You're so damn ignorant because you don't follow my nazistic views" Surfer.

[Guest goodhelmet]

this may be a bad analogy but i think it is on the right track...

 

have you ever tasted a good wine?

 

if wrestling is alcohol, then puro (12-6-96 specifically) is a good wine where xpw is like a bottle of nighttrain. they both get you drunk but one is definitely better than the other.

 

can you distinguish the difference between a premium vodka and well vodka?

 

once again, a bottle of grey goose or belvedere is much easier on the taste buds than a bottle of rickimov vodka. and the cheap stuff gives you a bad hangover in the morning.

 

an afficionado of puro or good alcohol has a better grasp on what constitutes a good match (or a good drink) than someone who is ignorant on the subject (that wasn't a flame). it is about examing the subtext, the flavor and the overall texture. there is a pre-defined criteria (jdw's 'working shoes' discussion is a good example) and based on that criteria, 12-6-96 is a wonderful match.

[Guest TheGame2705]

an afficionado of puro or good alcohol

 

You only help support the claim that puro fans think they are better than American fans which supports the elitism claim.

[Guest goodhelmet]

no, that isn't the point.

 

in terms of workrate, psychology, storytelling, and stamina, the best puro matches are on a higher plane than the best from north america BASED on that criteria.

 

in terms of taste, purity, and even texture, the best vodka or wine is better than its cheaper counterparts BASED on that criteria.

 

it may be pretentious BUT is correct based on a set criteria.

 

as a wrestling fan, i don't think i am any better than you. now, having seen more puro than you, i think you are more ignorant on the subject than i am.

[Guest TheGame2705]

But as of right now the topic on hand is the elitism vibe. I know I went off on a little tangent as to why I thought there was one but you're only proving the theory correct.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

The main problem I have now with the puro folder is I actually tried to argue why I thought the match wasn't that good. Anything I said was just labeled as ignorance and I was told I didn't get the deeper meaning behind it and that I was just an ignorant fool. The only arguments I can remember is "you didn't know the story" and "there was no no-selling" and "have you ever seen a tag match? the rules were fine" Point blank, I'm NOT gonna spend money trying to find every tape with those four involved simply because

a.) Misawa and Taue bored the fuck out of me so it's piss poor psychology to want to buy more tapes with them and

b.) I can say right now if those four in their best match ever bore the fuck out of me how the hell can they keep me entertained in their lower matches?

 

 

Some people in there I haven't had any problems with such as Black Tiger and Pegasus and to an extent Ricky. XDojime and Memphis also don't annoy me but holy fuck I think I've found the new Jubuki in Coffin "You're so damn ignorant because you don't follow my nazistic views" Surfer.

No, you did not.

 

You did not come in their to discuss jack shit, so please quit with the bullshit already. It's a good thing I was wearing rubber boots, while reading your post otherwise I might of ruined my school shoes.

 

Ever since your initial post, you've been trying to come off like your some type of intellecutual rebel, who's being hassled by the man because you have a difference of opinion.

 

Sorry to crush your fantasy, but that was not the case. Allow me to jerk your head out of the clouds, and explain to you why I insulted you.

 

You attitude was not one of a friendly discussion nature, your post came off like it was insulting our intelligence, and the Ahmed comment at the end pretty much sealed it.

 

As far as your arguments on 12/6/96 goes, they are indeed poor, piss poor to be exact. I continously went into detail, on each of your arguments, yet you ignored them and ignored them. You can't have a discussion if you ignore someone's response.

 

You can call me a nazi all you want, do you really think I give a shit?

[Guest goodhelmet]

for thegame...

 

ok, i reread the topic at hand....

 

you had your opinions on the match but your argument was weak. nearly every point was refuted by another person. once again, how serious would/should someone take you when you compare the workers to ahmed johnson or a-train? one example of your ignorance was the issue of finishers. you are pre-conditioned to think that one (at the most two) finisher is sufice to put the match away. in japan, as already explained, they are SIGNATURE moves, not necessarily finisher moves. in order to absorb all that these matches have to offer, you really have to alter your paradigms and come in to them without preconceived notions of what the wwe has told you to think about match construction.

 

with that said, i think your reaction to coffin surfer is justified because he chose to use name-calling as part of his rebuttal. it wasn't necessary and only caused tension in the discussion.

 

for coffin surfer...

i agree with your rebuttal of his weak points but the name calling was unnecessary. it doesn't strengthen your argument.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

with that said, i think your reaction to coffin surfer is justified because he chose to use name-calling as part of his rebuttal. it wasn't necessary and only caused tension in the discussion.

 

for coffin surfer...

i agree with your rebuttal of his weak points but the name calling was unnecessary. it doesn't strengthen your argument.

As I said before, while not directly calling a name, upon my first reading of the Game's post, I felt that he was calling fans of All Japan stupid. And I still question his real motives about starting the thread, which I doubt has anything to do with intelligent discussion.

 

Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. You can argue that if I felt I was being insulted, I shouldn't have lowered myself by returning the favor. Might be right, but I did choose to call him names, it's been done, and that's that.

[Guest goodhelmet]

ok, i went and reread the post again...

 

i didn't see him being insulting UNTIL the last paragraph where he suggested all japan fans (which i am) should go watch more ron simmons and ahmed johnson matches. i could see where that was being condescending and did nothing to help his already weak argument.

[Guest Black Tiger]

What's so stupid, is that if TheGame had just posted something along the lines of

 

"I recently watched 12/6/96. I didn't think it was very good, these are the reasons I didn't care for it"

 

He'd probably have gotten a few replies explaining the story of the match and why it's not a good idea to start off with that match. I think Dave's a nice guy, but when he started dishing out the dumbass comments (although the sex comment is pretty funny, and Coffin made a comment about Taue being sexy, before he threw that out there) he pretty much sealed his fate for getting shit.

[Guest TheGame2705]

I don't try to come down as condescending I just simply wanted to say I didn't like it. I may have sounded a bit bitter/smarmy because I was quite frustrated with it. If you've only seen my posts as far as in here and TNA then you'd think I was an elitist. I don't have a problem with TNA and want to see it succeed I just get annoyed when the product is supposedly light years more entertaining than WWE and I watch it and I'm entertained but not as much as I "should" be. I also don't have a problem with puro or those who like AJPW. If that's your thing fine. I just don't like it and wanted to say why I didn't. If the Ahmed comment offended anyone, I honestly believed that as far as what I could see the same things were being done that I would have seen in a Faarooq/Ahmed battle.

 

What's ironic is that you need to understand MY backstory. I don't even hate Ahmed. I never had a problem with him when he was around. I didn't think he was a star athlete but I wasn't offended. So I didn't really make it as a stabbing comment, I just made it as a relation.

 

I'm not totally against puro as I said I'm also watching NJPW BF 96 and I enjoyed the highlights from 1997's tag league.

 

The reason I get annoyed with the "you're ignorant because you don't know the backstory" is because a.)I don't want to go on a spending spree to see all the matches and I'm not even guaranteed to like them and because b.)a story shouldn't make the match good, it should only be able to make the match classic, i.e. Hogan/Andre.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I think that's why everyone loves DEAN. He doesn't take this shit seriously, and can actually have a sense of humour about it, yet at the same time can analyze it deeply. I've never heard one complaint hurled at him to be honest.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Well, I think this thing has just been a big misunderstanding on both parties.

 

The Game does have a right to not like 12/6/96, and the way his post originally came off, it seemed like he didn't want any discussion, he was just like you guys are dumb for liking this and that's all I have to say, so I figured well what the hell is the point in this.

 

If he did intend for discussion, than I it was wrong of me to to throw out the insults.

 

And Game, I hope that somewhere down the road you give All Japan another shot, and start off with the more straight ahead matches(keep in mind that they aren't really lesser matches, there still great, just not as complex and more straight forward than the highly acclaimed ones) that I took the time to list in the matches to check out thread.

 

And the Taue sexy thing had nothing to do with sexy as in the sexual sense. It was more like how Kareem Abdul Jabar once said that people didn't like his hook shot at first because it wasn't sexy. And that's how I would describe Taue's work, unsexy, but still damn effective.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I'm just gonna agree with everything Coffin has said here, he's definately got it about right.

 

The thing is, since this message board is here for the intelligent discussion of the art form known as wrestling, wherever it is based, I don't think it is at all unreasonable to expect people to know a little of what they are talking about before they start discussing. How can you have an intelligent discussion when one party isn't intelligent about the subject?

 

On the opinions as facts thing, I think there is some problems from some posters, sometimes, on this. There have been occasions when someone saying he loves spot fests has been somewhat flamed in the past. There is valid reasons for loving spot fests, that I'll not go into here due to it being unecessary, and no one should feel the heat because of a different, but equally valid opinion. However, when people like Game come on and make points that show a blatent ignorance of the style I just don't know what they expect to happen. I mean, if you admit you don't know much about it, fine, but Game seemed to think he was being intelligent.

[Guest Dangerous Back Drop]

goodhelmet's the one joker bringing his brain to the table on this discussion. Do you really think the flipside of the coin is any different - that fans of N.A. work, who find Japanese work to be boring, are any less belligerent, condescending, rude, and obnoxious when it comes right down to it? All the trademark spots and insults and jabs are there, if one walks through enough of those threads; they just take on a different set of adjectives, even though the spirit of the message is the same on either side of the discussion.

 

The problem doesn't come from "subjectivity." It isn't a product of "people liking different things." When it boils right down to it, a person can either deconstruct a match well, or he/she can't. It's that simple. And a wrestler in the ring can either lay out a match well (and improvise when need be), or he/she can't. Everyone loves to act like this is black or white because of the wrestlers, but that shit is just in your head. There's a reason why Billy Robinson could have classics with Baba and Jumbo. There's a reason Flair could have classics with Jumbo. There's a reason Steve Williams could work the Steiners and turn around and look great against Kawada. Bob Backlund could go against Inoki, and then turn it around and go against Don Muraco. Pat Patterson could do the same with Inoki as well as IC contenders. Pro-style is pro-style, with few exceptions - maybe only one, in Lucha, which is itself relatively easy to figure out once you watch enough. Go back and watch the 70's All Japan footage that's available; follow it through the 80's with the Funks and Brody and Flair and Race and Jumbo, and see how similar that style of work is to what Flair and Steamboat were doing by the end of the decade. Flair and Steamboat isn't wildly different from, say, Hansen vs. Baba - it's just a much *smarter* version of the same set of blueprints, with a different *emphasis*. Once Choshu showed up in AJ, the ball got rolling in a different direction, but the basic premises of how a match developed were still there - *if you know what you're looking at*. Jumbo and Tenryu took it to another level, but, again, it had to come off the same foundation. Take what you already know, look at what's emphasized up and down a card and over time, and you see how most of it is just branching off from the same source.

 

This shit isn't hard to figure out, people. It's wrestling, for fuck's sake. It's not rocket science.

[Guest TheGame2705]

Well I'm all for this truce/peace agreement/conflict resolution.